Question about Allison Fisher's stroke.

[av84fun]

I'm not backing down from anyone. If I am wrong than I will apologize. Until then, I will defend my statements. I haven't insulted anyone on this thread. Maybe you were just reading my statements with bias? Correct my english all you want. None of us are capable of walking on water. I dare you to try it sometime. :wink:

Regarding the topic...YOU have no statements to defend! SCOTT has a statement to defend. All you have done is to repeat HEARSAY about which you have ZERO personal knowledge nor any close relationship to anyone who does.

And if you think that telling Kristi that her comments "have no merit" to you was not insulting then I can only wonder who taught you your manners.

And of course, we are all capable of "walking on water." The only issue being how far.

LOL

 

[Big C]

You've been caught.

Regarding the topic...YOU have no statements to defend! SCOTT has a statement to defend. All you have done is to repeat HEARSAY about which you have ZERO personal knowledge nor any close relationship to anyone who does.

And if you think that telling Kristi that her comments "have no merit" to you was not insulting then I can only wonder who taught you your manners.

And of course, we are all capable of "walking on water." The only issue being how far.

LOL

Go back to page one and you will see that I was the one that commented about how Alison learned SPF from Randy. It wasn't until Scott quoted me that Kristi decided to go off the reservation. I told Kristi that her comments have no merit with me because I am not going to believe anything she has to say about where Alison and Karen learned SPF. Alison, Karen and Randy will be the only people that I will pay attention to in that regard. If you would like to know who taught me my manners, I was raised by women and I don't advise insulting any of them. Earlier in this thread you misquoted me and later apologized for it. That was your first mistake and I have forgiven you. Your second mistake was telling me that I have no statements to defend and once again I have proven you WRONG. Your third mistake was commenting on my manners and wondering who taught them to me. You're up to your neck with me now. You are no longer walking on water far as I am concerned.

 

[av84fun]

Wrong Again

Go back to page one and you will see that I was the one that commented about how Alison learned SPF from Randy. It wasn't until Scott quoted me that Kristi decided to go off the reservation.

THAT IS FLAT WRONG! YOU SAID "I'm pretty sure" which is just a GUESS. Scott's remark was presented as a statement of FACT. Do you know the difference???
I told Kristi that her comments have no merit with me because I am not going to believe anything she has to say about where Alison and Karen learned SPF.

Fine. Believe or disbelieve anything you want...but it is simply IGNORANT to accuse Kristi of not knowing what she is talking about since she OBVIOUSLY obtained her information directly from Allison. If you don't know why that is OBVIOUS, that is YOUR problem.
Alison, Karen and Randy will be the only people that I will pay attention to in that regard. If you would like to know who taught me my manners, I was raised by women and I don't advise insulting any of them.

I could care less who taught you what manners you have. Can't blame the teachers for ignorant students.

Earlier in this thread you misquoted me and later apologized for it. That was your first mistake and I have forgiven you.

Oh, I am immeasurably overjoyed about being forgiven by you. Without that, my life would not have been worth living. But YES...I DID make a mistake and I DID apologize for it....LIKE A MAN! But you just stick your foot in your mouth and KEEP it there for all to see.

You even DENY having insulted Kristi when you quite obviously DID and CONTINUE to.

Your second mistake was telling me that I have no statements to defend and once again I have proven you WRONG.

No YOU are wrong. As noted above, yours was a GUESS by definition. You didn't state it as fact so there was no point in busting your chops.


Your third mistake was commenting on my manners and wondering who taught them to me. You're up to your neck with me now.

Ooooohhhhh!

You are no longer walking on water far as I am concerned.

I didn't say I WAS walking on water. I said anyone COULD walk on water.

Open mouth...insert foot....AGAIN!

Finally, just to review the bidding.

1. You have NO CLUE about the facts of the incident (or lack of one).

2. You think that Kristi is either A) Lying B) Making up her comments out of thin air or C) that Alli has lied to her.

3. I think that A-C above are born of ignorance on your part.

4. I'm right.

5. You're wrong.

(-:

 

[Cornerman]

I don't care if you are Alison's friend, let her speak for herself. BTW, I took the time to read some of your past posts so that I could ?

Take it easy Big C. If Kristi Carter wrote this, then we can all guarantee you that Allison is 100% in agreement with what she's writing.

Fred <~~~ Kristi Carter fan club member

 

[FLICKit]

1 more try - not trying to walk into the middle of a firestorm

Allison credits the development of the hesitation in her stroke to world-renowned coach, Frank Callan

This is where I think the discrepancy lies between the two of you.

Kristi, you are referring to a hesitation in the stroke. In your quotes, you have repeatedly used it in the singular.

SPF utilizes more than 1 hesitation, along with other minute details.

Therefore, when Big C talks about SPF and Kristi talks about a pause, although it looks like you two are talking about the same thing, in actuality you may not be. It's a subtle distinction.

This is especially true, when Kristi refers to Allison's main purpose of being there was to learn their teaching style.

Just take it under consideration... That's my suggestion...

Edited: Oops I made a mistake as well, correct Big Cat to be Big C.

 

[Craig Fales]

I saw some of her match vs. Karen Corr last night and was pointing out to a buddy that she pauses just before she hits the CB.

Before some of you Allison-fans jump on me please note I am not knocking her game or her many accomplishments in any way. I would simply like to know if stroking the ball this way is a good idea. I know a couple of beginners who were also watching the match and they may try to emulate a female professional by doing the same thing.

Do any male pros do this (pause before contact)? I can't remember if they do. Obviously it works for Allison, plus she has that snooker background, incredible mental game, etc.

Just curious as to what you all think about that stroke, and if you would recommend it to a beginner.

It's a snooker thing...I do it aswell. It really generates good feel for the shot...

 

[randyg]

Actually Scott...

I'm not sure where you're getting your information but if it's from Randy himself or anyone from his school then I'm sorry to break it to you but they're not telling the truth and/or simply advertising their product. If it's from someone else, then either way you are misinformed.

Allison credits the development of the hesitation in her stroke to world-renowned coach, Frank Callan, who also taught Steve Davis, Stephen Hendry and a number of other great snooker players. At the age of 17 (1985) and three months before the World Championships, Allison spent one weekend with Frank. During this time, he taught her the effectiveness of pausing at the back of the stroke. She's worked on this technique ever since.

She visited Randy's pool school several years ago in order to see how the BCA instructors taught -- and for no other reason. She did not bring a cue and did not strike a single ball during her time there. She was there to observe their instruction techniques. So I find it bemusing that you believe Randy taught her "how to finish her stroke" and that "she started doing table length draws accurately, with no effort!". The only thing correct about your comment is the "no effort".

Regarding your statement, "snooker players are taught to "screw" the CB by forcibly stopping the cue at contact with the CB (aka no finish or followthrough)". No snooker player in the world stops at the cue ball when delivering the final stroke. It's an absurd concept.

I also highly doubt that Allison "had trouble' with long draws when she visited Randy's school. I've read several comments on this forum about Allison's appearance at Randy's school and nearly all of them have been erroneous. It's very sad. I wish Randy would come on here and set the record straight but that has yet to happen. Wonder why.

Let's remember that Allison had over 11 world titles and 80+ national titles before ever coming to the US or visiting Randy's school.

Randy took the week off to spend some time with his grandkids. Now I'm back and look what's going on. Set the record straight? Ok!

Every year our Pool School has 400+ students. Most of those students are searching for help in their game. Most students are very good players in their own right, just need tweeking in their game.

Every year our Pool School enrolls about a dozen or so who wish to become BCA Instructors. These candidates take the same class as the students, do the same drills and follow the same workbook. In addition, these candidates arrive at School earlier and stay later. They are issued a special Instructors manuel for further training and develpoment. They have to pass certain tests that are about teaching, not playing. Allison & Gerda did attend this type of class. They both recieved their Instructors Certification from our School and the BCA. Both Ladies were the "best" students in that class, true Professionals. I learned as much from them as I could.

We are all learners, that's what Instruction is all about. I hope that Allison & Gerda took home the material that they were looking for. That's our job. If either Lady learned something about their personal game, that's all the better.

Kristi is correct, the "pause" has been around longer than our School. Probably since the 1st time a cue was moved. Both Allison & Gerda have a perfect "pause" at the end of their back-stroke (long before attending our School), perfect for them. They both understand "SPF" very well and are able to teach that concept to anyone who is willing to learn. They are good Instructors!!!!!! Better yet, they are good friends.

Thanks Kristi, hope to see you in Sept. I will be in Charlotte for a Pool School and will have my golf clubs with me. God Bless...SPF=randyg

 

[randyg]

Take it easy Big C. If Kristi Carter wrote this, then we can all guarantee you that Allison is 100% in agreement with what she's writing.

Fred <~~~ Kristi Carter fan club member

Randyg<~~~Krtisti Carter fan club member #1

 

[Kristi Carter]

This is where I think the discrepancy lies between the two of you.

Kristi, you are referring to a hesitation in the stroke. In your quotes, you have repeatedly used it in the singular.

SPF utilizes more than 1 hesitation, along with other minute details.

Therefore, when Big Cat talks about SPF and Kristi talks about a pause, although it looks like you two are talking about the same thing, in actuality you may not be. It's a subtle distinction.

This is especially true, when Kristi refers to Allison's main purpose of being there was to learn their teaching style.

Just take it under consideration... That's my suggestion...

I can see why you think there is a discrepancy and oftentimes it is that simple; but my first post was in response to Scott who claims Randy taught Allison to "finish her stroke". Scott made no mention of SPF.

It is Big C who has taken offense to my comments and decided to set a different standard for me when it comes to hearsay. Apparently, his information is admissible, while mine although directly from Allison "bears no merit".

I think all of this could be settled rather quickly if Randy came on here to set the record straight. At the very most, Randy provided a "phrase" to something Allison has been doing since 1985. If you want to call that teaching then that's up to you.

 

[Scott Lee]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, Randyg did set the record straight. Allison did NOT "finish" her stroke (according to how we teach SET-PAUSE-FINISH... what do you think SPF stands for? ) prior to coming to pool school. Now she does...it's evident in her play. Perhaps 'trouble with long draws' is not the correct phrase. She was not as "comfortable" with them as she wanted to be...there, do you like that word better, Kristi? I never made any mention that Randy taught Allison any kind of 'pause', as she certainly had that, for as long as I have watched her play (many years).

As Randy stated, Allison and Gerda (and Karen, and, and, and...) came to the school as STUDENTS (whether they were there as instructor candidates or not), just like everyone else. They went through the same paces, and learned the same techniques, as everyone else. IMO, as an instructor, there is an improvement in Allison's stroke now, compared to 5 years ago (they came to school in Sept. 03). Not to say that Allison did not have a championship stroke, prior to school (she certainly did), but it is even better now.

Case closed...

Oh, and FWIW, I don't know why ANY pro (or anybody else) would negate the fact that they learned something positive from one the top instructors on the planet! If they do, that's their ego talking!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I can see why you think there is a discrepancy and oftentimes it is that simple; but my first post was in response to Scott who claims Randy taught Allison to "finish her stroke". Scott made no mention of SPF.

It is Big C who has taken offense to my comments and decided to set a different standard for me when it comes to hearsay. Apparently, his information is admissible, while mine although directly from Allison "bears no merit".

I think all of this could be settled rather quickly if Randy came on here to set the record straight. At the very most, Randy provided a "phrase" to something Allison has been doing since 1985. If you want to call that teaching then that's up to you.

 

[Kristi Carter]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, Randyg did set the record straight. Allison did NOT "finish" her stroke (according to how we teach SET-PAUSE-FINISH... what do you think SPF stands for? ) prior to coming to pool school. Now she does...it's evident in her play. Perhaps 'trouble with long draws' is not the correct phrase. She was not as "comfortable" with them as she wanted to be...there, do you like that word better, Kristi? I never made any mention that Randy taught Allison any kind of 'pause', as she certainly had that, for as long as I have watched her play (many years).

As Randy stated, Allison and Gerda (and Karen, and, and, and...) came to the school as STUDENTS (whether they were there as instructor candidates or not), just like everyone else. They went through the same paces, and learned the same techniques, as everyone else. IMO, as an instructor, there is an improvement in Allison's stroke now, compared to 5 years ago (they came to school in Sept. 03). Not to say that Allison did not have a championship stroke, prior to school (she certainly did), but it is even better now.

Case closed...

Oh, and FWIW, I don't know why ANY pro (or anybody else) would negate the fact that they learned something positive from one the top instructors on the planet! If they do, that's their ego talking!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I think you should reread Randy's comment (slowly) because at no time does he say that he helped her to "finish her stroke". I think you're reading what you want to believe.

Perhaps it isn't my, or Allison's, ego talking seeing as Randy and Cue-tech are the only ones benefiting from this misinformation. Please don't be upset with me because somebody else has been less than truthful with you and you've taken that information to heart and told others.

 

[dr_dave]

reasons for the "pause"

I saw some of her match vs. Karen Corr last night and was pointing out to a buddy that she pauses just before she hits the CB.

Before some of you Allison-fans jump on me please note I am not knocking her game or her many accomplishments in any way. I would simply like to know if stroking the ball this way is a good idea.

Justifications for a deliberate back-swing "pause" can be found in item 4 here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf
​

More detailed info can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#SPFF
​

Regards,
Dave

 

[av84fun]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, Randyg did set the record straight. Allison did NOT "finish" her stroke (according to how we teach SET-PAUSE-FINISH... what do you think SPF stands for? ) prior to coming to pool school. Now she does...it's evident in her play. Perhaps 'trouble with long draws' is not the correct phrase. She was not as "comfortable" with them as she wanted to be...there, do you like that word better, Kristi? I never made any mention that Randy taught Allison any kind of 'pause', as she certainly had that, for as long as I have watched her play (many years).

As Randy stated, Allison and Gerda (and Karen, and, and, and...) came to the school as STUDENTS (whether they were there as instructor candidates or not), just like everyone else. They went through the same paces, and learned the same techniques, as everyone else. IMO, as an instructor, there is an improvement in Allison's stroke now, compared to 5 years ago (they came to school in Sept. 03). Not to say that Allison did not have a championship stroke, prior to school (she certainly did), but it is even better now.

Case closed...

Oh, and FWIW, I don't know why ANY pro (or anybody else) would negate the fact that they learned something positive from one the top instructors on the planet! If they do, that's their ego talking!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott, you know I am a fan of yours...and student...and have sung your praises long and loud.

However, there is no "ego involvement" in Kristi's posts or in Allison's personality or behavior....NONE!

Allison even wrote a magazine article recently telling a story about how she gets useful "tips" and suggestions from MANY sources...including rank amateurs.

The story had to do with the "dart method" jump shot that a "pretty good" player showed her and that she used to pocket a critical shot at her next tournament.

How more generous and self-effacing and NON-ego-involved could she possibly be than to credit an amateur for teaching her somthing of value....and to do so for the entire world to read in a magazine article!

What is even more astonishing is that the amateur...who is barely worthy to carry her cue case....was me.

(-:

Finally, any good instructor bases what they teach about the stroke on observations of the greatest champions. They isolate the elements of those championship strokes that can be most readily adopted by the marjority of students.

Since Allison has one of the most perfect strokes in pool history...the mechanics of which are HIGHLY transferable (unlike Busta and Efren for example) then the truth is that the instructor community at large has learned vastly more from her (or should have) than they have ever taught her.

Jim

 

[Big C]

Thank you and God bless.

I would like to thank Randy for replying and trying to set things right. It seems that we all had a piece of the truth and things just got out of control. At no time was any of us trying to paint a false picture of what alison and Karen were doing at Randy's school. At least that it my opinion.

Kristi, I hope you don't believe that I was upset with you and took offense to anything that you said to me. If you were offended by anything I said, that was not intended and I apologize. I respect everything you have to say, but I do not have to agree 100%. What I didn't care for was the tone in your posts. I may never get to meet you, but if I do I will offer to shake your hand and smile.

Jim, I think we both agree to disagree. I just hope that we can be more respectful to each other in future exchanges. I admire your sharp wit and strong conviction.

Take care and good night.

 

[Nick B]

All I can say is No...No...No...No...No...No...No...No...this is standard method for English Snooker players. Go check out youtube,


Nick

I'm pretty sure that Allison and Karen learned Set, Pause, Finish from Randy G. It's a very powerful training and self diagnostic tool. Also pay attention to their elbow and cue tip position at the finish position of the stroke.

 

[av84fun]

I would like to thank Randy for replying and trying to set things right. It seems that we all had a piece of the truth and things just got out of control. At no time was any of us trying to paint a false picture of what alison and Karen were doing at Randy's school. At least that it my opinion.

Kristi, I hope you don't believe that I was upset with you and took offense to anything that you said to me. If you were offended by anything I said, that was not intended and I apologize. I respect everything you have to say, but I do not have to agree 100%. What I didn't care for was the tone in your posts. I may never get to meet you, but if I do I will offer to shake your hand and smile.

Jim, I think we both agree to disagree. I just hope that we can be more respectful to each other in future exchanges. I admire your sharp wit and strong conviction.

Take care and good night.

I thought you owed Kristi an apology and you gave it. That was the right and manly thing to do and I respect that.

No problems here. Onward and upward.

As far as the debate about what Alli might have learned at the SPF I think it should be given a decent burial.

For sure though, at the time of the visit in question, Alli was already the winningest female 9 Ball player of all time and the very hallmark of her skill is near-perfect stroke mechanics.

All strokes get "finished"...the only issue is HOW they finish and how consistently. So, the debate is moot because all that is necessary is to look at pre-visit matches she played in and SEE that her stroke ended up EXACTLY as taught by SPF instructors.

No living person other than Allison or a person like Kristi, knows what Allison may have LEARNED as opposed to being TOLD something that she already knew. And for sure, Alli is SUCH a LADY that she would not have have said anything like..."I already know THAT."

I am sure she would want to hear all kinds of advice from top instructors on the break or route management or specialty shots etc. and would be a sponge for great advice along those lines.

But those who would presume to teach her much of anything about stroke mechanics are and were back then...rather barking up the wrong tree...or "carrying coals to Newcastle" as the Brit expression goes.

Over and out. (-:

Regards,
Jim

 

[pooltchr]

At that level, the pros are still looking for even the smallest nugget that can give them an edge. I'm sure Allison, Karen, and many others would gladly spend 3 days with any good instructor in hopes they might find one little thing that could help them get better. I don't think any of them is "satisfied" with their game enough to think they can't get even better.

I have met players who thought they already knew everything they needed to know...but they weren't playing at the pro level.

Steve

 

[berlowmj]

set pause freeze

I saw some of her match vs. Karen Corr last night and was pointing out to a buddy that she pauses just before she hits the CB.

Before some of you Allison-fans jump on me please note I am not knocking her game or her many accomplishments in any way. I would simply like to know if stroking the ball this way is a good idea. I know a couple of beginners who were also watching the match and they may try to emulate a female professional by doing the same thing.

Do any male pros do this (pause before contact)? I can't remember if they do. Obviously it works for Allison, plus she has that snooker background, incredible mental game, etc.

Just curious as to what you all think about that stroke, and if you would recommend it to a beginner.

It is consistent with the "set,pause freeze" standard in pool school curriculum.