That is the PRECISE pause we are talking about. Allison has a pronounced pause at the back of her stroke. Go back and read the original post.av84fun said:
Question about Allison Fisher's stroke.
- Thread starter inside_english
- Start date
TOE-MAY-TOE, TOE-MAH-TOE. They both have nearly the same stroke. Where I see the huge difference is the "tuck and roll" by Buddy, and the elbow drop. Allison has neither of these, which to me, is more technically correct. Of all the male players, the best stroke I have ever seen is Jimmy Reid.mullyman said:
Shawn Armstrong said:
No, you go back and read MY post which stated...
"Originally Posted by av84fun
A LOT of instructors teach the pause at the front of the final stroke. It is the SET position in the SPF sequence.
That is the SET position sir. And the pause you are referring to is the PAUSE position and the end of the stroke is called...quite aptly the FINISH position NOT the FREEZE position.
I have Scott Lee's student manual in my hand in case you would like to debate this matter further.
Jim
Lesson in reading comprehension for av84fun
She pauses just before she hits the cueball. I don't know about you, but I hit the cueball on my frontswing, not my backswing. So, I'm guessing he's talking about the pause at the transition between the front and back swing. When I took my BCA lessons, they taught me this was the PAUSE position.
Now, go ahead and tell me I'm wrong again.
inside_english said:
She pauses just before she hits the cueball. I don't know about you, but I hit the cueball on my frontswing, not my backswing. So, I'm guessing he's talking about the pause at the transition between the front and back swing. When I took my BCA lessons, they taught me this was the PAUSE position.
Now, go ahead and tell me I'm wrong again.
In an effort to break up the petty back n forth a bit.
I'll tell you you're wrong.
Set Pause Finish is like Av84Fun says.
If someone taught you a different Set, then they either taught you a different variation, or you are recalling incorrectly. Not looking to argue about it.
The confusion comes in your post #19 where you said "You SET yourself into the stroke". Your version is a bit too wide of a definition, it could be interpreted many ways (by someone other than you). For example, someone (maybe not you), could use your definition to say that SET refers to the stance, or where you put the bridge hand, or how you've determined the english, or how you've determined the contact point, or what speed you've decided on. Note, all of those things are very valuable things to do. Just saying SET refers to a more specific point. The Set of the SPF more specifically addresses the pause at the cue ball.
If I recall incorrectly, I'd be happy to be corrected in any way.
I'll tell you you're wrong.
Set Pause Finish is like Av84Fun says.
If someone taught you a different Set, then they either taught you a different variation, or you are recalling incorrectly. Not looking to argue about it.
The confusion comes in your post #19 where you said "You SET yourself into the stroke". Your version is a bit too wide of a definition, it could be interpreted many ways (by someone other than you). For example, someone (maybe not you), could use your definition to say that SET refers to the stance, or where you put the bridge hand, or how you've determined the english, or how you've determined the contact point, or what speed you've decided on. Note, all of those things are very valuable things to do. Just saying SET refers to a more specific point. The Set of the SPF more specifically addresses the pause at the cue ball.
If I recall incorrectly, I'd be happy to be corrected in any way.
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My wife has said that to me more than once today.FLICKit said:
The question wasn't about what SPF is. Look at my original post regarding SPF. Where the discrepancy lies is that av84fun has talked about a lot of players having a pause at the "S" portion of their strokes. The original poster was asking about the pause at the back of the backswing. This is the pause or "hitch" as some of the oldtimers call it, that we've been talking about. The players that have been mentioned have very noticeable pauses before their front movement. So, while you and av8 are talking about the SET, we've all moved onto the PAUSE. Sorry we left you behind.
JDB I agree.
Poolplaya made reference to a sidenote, which provided an alternate point.
AV84Fun's initial response was a little loose, which could account for the point where Shawn and AV84Fun began to argue about separate things. AV84Fun then provided a more accurate description afterwards.
Like you say, Shawn may have stayed on the original thread, but the sidenote and AV84Fun's reply was about something different.
So, we actually left you behind Shawn.
(Friendly Jab)
But, I'm done with the topic. If Shawn wants to be right and make our points wrong, then I'll let it go.
Poolplaya made reference to a sidenote, which provided an alternate point.
AV84Fun's initial response was a little loose, which could account for the point where Shawn and AV84Fun began to argue about separate things. AV84Fun then provided a more accurate description afterwards.
Like you say, Shawn may have stayed on the original thread, but the sidenote and AV84Fun's reply was about something different.
So, we actually left you behind Shawn.
(Friendly Jab)But, I'm done with the topic. If Shawn wants to be right and make our points wrong, then I'll let it go.
Shawn Armstrong said:
I don't know why you are so snippy today. Possibly being wrong about what SPF means set you off.
The poster adequately described Karen's pause at the back of the final forwards stroke. So yes, she DOES "pause just before she hits the cue ball."
It is your misunderstand of what the "set position" is and/or your poor description of it is where the disconnect is in this thread.
You described the set position as..."You SET yourself into the stroke"
What does that mean?
I am not going to quote from Scott's manual here on line but one of the 5 characteristics of the SET position is a pause before the final backstroke with the tip as close to the CB as practical.
I don't think this is "petty bickering" as one poster suggested but rather the proper avoidance of misunderstanding and mischaracterization of important fundamentals of the SPF method.
My original post was NOT in response to the OP but in response to poolplaya9. I merely stated the FACT that many instructors teach a pause at the FRONT of the final stroke.
Jim
Set-Pause-Finish...Freeze.
FINISH = The end of the stroke.
FREEZE = Holding at the FINISH position for a brief moment. This helps to deliver a controlled stroke, stay down on the shot and evaluate the execution of the shot. The FREEZE is a diagnostic tool. It helps the shooter determine if the stroke was executed properly and also completes the mental circuit. The SPF method really shouldn't be learned from a discussion forum as this will only cause confusion. Anyone who wishes to learn this method should seek out a teacher that is a member of the SPF family.
As I understand it, Finish and Freeze are not the same thing.Shawn Armstrong said:
FINISH = The end of the stroke.
FREEZE = Holding at the FINISH position for a brief moment. This helps to deliver a controlled stroke, stay down on the shot and evaluate the execution of the shot. The FREEZE is a diagnostic tool. It helps the shooter determine if the stroke was executed properly and also completes the mental circuit. The SPF method really shouldn't be learned from a discussion forum as this will only cause confusion. Anyone who wishes to learn this method should seek out a teacher that is a member of the SPF family.
I personally think SPF is a pile of HOOEY. People all operate at different tempos. Some shoot fast, some shoot slow. I come from the Jimmy Reid school. Always keep the cue moving. Excessive pauses cause excessive tension. Tension is bad. "FAST AND LOOSE", like Eddie said.Big C said:
I'm a member of the SPF family of instructors - it's Set (pause at the CB), Pause (pause at the top of the backswing), Finish (grip hand reaches its home position). Freeze is a part of the Finish, but some BCA instructors teach it as a separate component. That's the period where you evaluate the stroke and its results. Stop arguing boys, Shawn simply misread av84fun's post and didn't catch that av84fun's talking about Set, not Pause.
Big C - Randy did not teach Allison her stroke, although they have worked together. Allie comes from the world of snooker, where strokes are almost universal. Just about every snooker player I've ever seen (with a few exceptions) has the same stroke.
There are plenty of SPF instructors on AZ (Randy Gottlicher, Scott Lee, Steve Jennings, me, etc.) - if the OP has questions about SPF, feel free to PM one of us.
-djb
Big C - Randy did not teach Allison her stroke, although they have worked together. Allie comes from the world of snooker, where strokes are almost universal. Just about every snooker player I've ever seen (with a few exceptions) has the same stroke.
There are plenty of SPF instructors on AZ (Randy Gottlicher, Scott Lee, Steve Jennings, me, etc.) - if the OP has questions about SPF, feel free to PM one of us.
-djb
What I was referring in my side note were the pros who have a noticable pause before their final backstroke (the set position in spf), but no pause at the rear of the final stroke (the pause position in spf). I should have probably been more clear. To my knowledge, no instructors teach this variation, but it is fairly common among pros.av84fun said:
I agree with you that tension is bad, but disagree that excessive pauses cause excessive tension. If anything, having a pause at the top of the backswing DECREASES tension as it allows a definite transition between the triceps and biceps. In other words, those muscles CANNOT fight against each other if there's a defined pause. It's physically impossible to always keep the cue moving - there's always a pause, no matter how slight, at the end of the backswing. SPF simply teaches to be aware of that pause and allow a transition between the triceps and biceps. We don't teach "you have to have a 1.3 second pause" or anything like that.Shawn Armstrong said:
SPF has nothing to do with shooting fast or shooting slow.
-djb
Big C said:
That is incorrect. I don't think it would be inappropriate to quote briefly from Scott's manual for this purpose.
"The Finish is the end result of the stroke. Simply by moving the cue stick to the finish position, the stroke is completed with proper follow-through."
"Holding the Finish position for a brief moment is called the FREEZE....The FREEZE is a diagnostic tool."
Clearly, while related, Finish and Freeze are two different things.
Regards,
Jim
I think it's a good idea for the vast majority of players. Then again, so is practicing. So is taking lessons from a competent instructor.inside_english said:
There are some things that make the pause more comfortable. Seek instruction.
Buddy Hall is the most pronounced, but many male pros have some kind of pause back there. A pretty high percentage of snooker male pros do as well.
I would recommend it to a beginner.
Fred
Shawn Armstrong said:
Just because you and/or Jimmy Reid and/or anyone else of championship speed do not use the SPF method does NOT...repeat DOES NOT make it a "pile of HOOEY."
With all due respect to Jimmy, numerous players with considerably more status in the ranks of top professionals DO use it.
What is full of HOOEY is your attitude and mischaracterizations in this thread.
Jim