Question about APA skill levels

Maniac

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
I don't mean for this to be an APA-bashing thread although I know it has the potential to turn out that way. Anyway........

My 9-ball team played a team last night that had all new (except one) players on their roster. They were literally new to the APA. Although we were into week 7 during this session, this team got a late start and missed the first few weeks.

This team had two men on their roster that were rated SL2's (SL2 is as low as a man can go in APA 9-ball). One of them had only played one match and the other had only played two matches. Since men with no book skill levels come into the league as SL4's, is it possible to drop TWO skill levels after only one and two matches?

For the record, one of the SL2's played like a "weak" 3 and the other played like a 4. The "weak" 3 lost to our lady SL1 while their 2 that shot like a 4 beat our SL4.

IMO, without having yet called my Division Rep, I don't think there is any way possible for a player, man or woman, to drop two skill levels after only one match (or after two matches as the other one did).

Does this reek of pandering? One of the players on my team opined that the League Operator probably made some kind of a deal with this team to get them into our league so there wouldn't be a bye on the schedule thus causing the LO to "lose" $60 a week. There could be something to this but what am I to do about it or how would I prove it?

If there is anyone out there that KNOWS anything how the skill level system works in the APA, basically what I want to know is, is it possible to drop two skill levels that quickly and if not, what should I do about this?

Maniac
 
maniac,

i am captain of a 8 and 9 ball team, i will say that i have seen some very strange things when i brought new people onto my team. i have one player who is 1-7 in 9 ball and has stayed at a 3. i have another new player who is 6-2 and has stayed a four. i watched an opponent's 4absolutely destroy my 4 wednesday night, this had perfect shape after every shot, broke up clusters, moved whereever he needed to be for next shot, etc. still not sure why he is a 4? when i first started in apa i went from a 4 to a 5 back to a 3 in about 12 weeks. i think the apa computer program may be even more screwed up than the bcs computer as far as rankings go. i have learned to just go with it and not pay too much attention.

my advice, have fun and dont try to figure out s/l's with new players. they wont make any sense until a player has at least 10 or 15 matches lifetime.

Mike
 
I'm sure it's legit (not saying the players are legit) just the handicap is legit with the LO. Remember the APA handicap works on an average of your 10 best out of your last 20 scores, with only 1 or 2 scores it will take your single best score. When a new player starts he is a unranked player and he plays his first match as a 4, he is not a SL 4 but an unranked player. so if he loses his first match he more than likely put up a 2 or 3 SL score so he drops immediately to whatever his score averages to. Now if he wins the next week with a SL 6 score he will be raised to a 6 since the system looks at his 1 best score out of 2. Scores can greatly fluctuate for the first few weeks, I wouldn't worry about it and just play the best you can! Hope this makes sense.
 
I don't claim to know the system.

My first year in APA I started as a 4 in week #1 and beat a 5 and dropped to a 3. Beat a 2 the next week and went back to a 4. Lost to a 3 the next week and stayed a 4.

I've been as high as a 5. Once when I was a SL 5 I beat a 7 and dropped back to a 4. Next week I lost to a 6 and went back to a 5.

Again ... I don't claim to know the system, but I do know that it doesn't seem to follow a lot of intuitive logic.

LWW
 
magnetardo said:
I'm sure it's legit (not saying the players are legit) just the handicap is legit with the LO. Remember the APA handicap works on an average of your 10 best out of your last 20 scores, with only 1 or 2 scores it will take your single best score. When a new player starts he is a unranked player and he plays his first match as a 4, he is not a SL 4 but an unranked player. so if he loses his first match he more than likely put up a 2 or 3 SL score so he drops immediately to whatever his score averages to. Now if he wins the next week with a SL 6 score he will be raised to a 6 since the system looks at his 1 best score out of 2. Scores can greatly fluctuate for the first few weeks, I wouldn't worry about it and just play the best you can! Hope this makes sense.
Click to expand...

This pretty much sums it up. If you come in as a 4 and lose a match that was 428 innings, do you thik the player should not get moved down 2 SL's?:confused: Like Magnetardo mentioned above, the handicaps are probably legit, but the players might not be. Our local league, which is a huge league, has new players play 3 weeks before they get a rating. During those first 3 weeks they play at the lowest handicap, but so do there opponents.
 
Maniac said:
I don't mean for this to be an APA-bashing thread although I know it has the potential to turn out that way. Anyway........

My 9-ball team played a team last night that had all new (except one) players on their roster. They were literally new to the APA. Although we were into week 7 during this session, this team got a late start and missed the first few weeks.

This team had two men on their roster that were rated SL2's (SL2 is as low as a man can go in APA 9-ball). One of them had only played one match and the other had only played two matches. Since men with no book skill levels come into the league as SL4's, is it possible to drop TWO skill levels after only one and two matches?

For the record, one of the SL2's played like a "weak" 3 and the other played like a 4. The "weak" 3 lost to our lady SL1 while their 2 that shot like a 4 beat our SL4.

IMO, without having yet called my Division Rep, I don't think there is any way possible for a player, man or woman, to drop two skill levels after only one match (or after two matches as the other one did).

Does this reek of pandering? One of the players on my team opined that the League Operator probably made some kind of a deal with this team to get them into our league so there wouldn't be a bye on the schedule thus causing the LO to "lose" $60 a week. There could be something to this but what am I to do about it or how would I prove it?

If there is anyone out there that KNOWS anything how the skill level system works in the APA, basically what I want to know is, is it possible to drop two skill levels that quickly and if not, what should I do about this?

Maniac
Click to expand...


I previously played APA and wondered the same thing about how skill levels were determined. When I asked our league operator about it, he told me that neither he nor his wife had anything to do with assigning skill levels. The software the league operators have generates the skill levels based on the data that's inputted. I'm sure there might be league operators in places that know how to manipulate the software to get a certain result.
 
Yes if they are NEW never played APA before they can go from a 4 to a two in one week. The handicap issome how based off the number of turnes taken and who won the match.

I think I read where they changed the skill level. (I think) where 7 is no longer the highest. If I start as a 4 and win my match say 3 games straight against a 5 player and it only took me two shots at the table each game then you can bet I will be a 6 the next week. If I B&R one or two of them games I would be a 7 the next week.

But on the other hand if I am playing a 3 and they win both tha match I would end up being a placed a 2.

All of the information carries over from week to week so the more thay play the less they will jump 2 spots on the handicap. .



Maniac said:
I don't mean for this to be an APA-bashing thread although I know it has the potential to turn out that way. Anyway........

My 9-ball team played a team last night that had all new (except one) players on their roster. They were literally new to the APA. Although we were into week 7 during this session, this team got a late start and missed the first few weeks.

This team had two men on their roster that were rated SL2's (SL2 is as low as a man can go in APA 9-ball). One of them had only played one match and the other had only played two matches. Since men with no book skill levels come into the league as SL4's, is it possible to drop TWO skill levels after only one and two matches?

For the record, one of the SL2's played like a "weak" 3 and the other played like a 4. The "weak" 3 lost to our lady SL1 while their 2 that shot like a 4 beat our SL4.

IMO, without having yet called my Division Rep, I don't think there is any way possible for a player, man or woman, to drop two skill levels after only one match (or after two matches as the other one did).

Does this reek of pandering? One of the players on my team opined that the League Operator probably made some kind of a deal with this team to get them into our league so there wouldn't be a bye on the schedule thus causing the LO to "lose" $60 a week. There could be something to this but what am I to do about it or how would I prove it?

If there is anyone out there that KNOWS anything how the skill level system works in the APA, basically what I want to know is, is it possible to drop two skill levels that quickly and if not, what should I do about this?

Maniac
Click to expand...
 
rossaroni said:
This pretty much sums it up. If you come in as a 4 and lose a match that was 428 innings, do you thik the player should not get moved down 2 SL's?:confused:
Click to expand...

rossaroni,
I have no idea how many innings these players logged up (but I'm pretty sure it wasn't 428 :rolleyes::grin:) or if they won/lost their previous matches, but I know a SL2 when I see one and the ONE aforementioned player was definitely NOT a SL2 :(.

I too am getting very used to seeing this and other unexplainable things happen in the South Arlington APA. I have learned to roll with the flow, but I do sometimes have to try to explain things to my teammates. So, I search for answers as any good Captain/Co-Captain should do.

I pretty much only shoot in the APA so I can be on a team with my wife and friends for a night out of socializing. I can't take it too seriously. The teams I shoot on in APA, both 8-ball and 9-ball, have little chance of ever finishing high up in the standings as we all tend to shoot either right on our skill levels or slightly under them. And we are not hagglers or sticklers on certain unimportant rules (heck, last night the opposing team only had four players and I let THEM decide who they wanted to shoot twice). We are a well-established team just in it for the fun with a roster of long-time APA players. As we all know, to be successful in the APA you need to have people on your team that on any given night two or three of them will shoot a skill level (sometimes two skill levels) over what they are rated :wink:.

Once again, I'm only looking for answers to satisfy my teammates.

Maniac
 
i had a real problem with my team mates wanting expanations about other players, it took me almost a full session to convince them to let me worry about opponents skill levels and rules and such. they are finally at a point where they just go play and have fun and i sweat the details. just tell them to play to their best and if someone is rated incorrectly it will correct itself eventually. this has made my league night much more enjoyable, but then again i like the thinking part of being captain.

Mike
 
FUnny, I found this website originally because I had a similiar question. I would not accept that no one had the answer, this is the interwebz afterall....

BTW. The answer is out there. Isn't all that easy to find, but its there. They protect that information pretty well.

Not saying I understand the APA equilizer system "dead nutz", but I do understand it perty well. It takes a funkload of mental energy and discipline to maniuplate it, but if someone were so inclined they could. MInd you, one slip up would throw a wrench into those efforts and take a significant amount of time to undo. It's not as easy as you think even if you understand it and frankly not worth the effort it would take to alter it meaningfully. Fact is.... People, and to be more specific, pool players at the median to high median skill level are by nature inconisistant and a bunch of factors go into one performance on a night to night, week to week, or month to month basis. from thier "focus" or "zone" to how the balls line up, nerves, how the day went at work, to lucky rolls, to the opponents focus, to his lucky or unlucky rolls, to this and that and another.... it's the human factor, how the farkin moons align or misalign on any given night, whatever.... point is Ive seen SL4's play like SL8's one night and 2's the next... and trust me, they arent "trying" to sandbag... I know them. SUre it maybe easy for some APA players who think they understand the system to mentally use the excuse or scape goat that they "dont want to go up" or whatever when they are off... but if they are saying that to themselves or to others there's a really good chance it's just that... and excuse or a way for their ego to be ok with not playing well. That 1 or 2 cases when that happens out of 10+ matches means VERY little in the big picture of manipulating a skill level.

IT is whAt it is. Kill the monsters under the bed.

#1 yes, Ive seen people drop 2 levels from go and know why they did. (SL4 to SL2, etc...). #2 a few people above me in this post hit some of the keys factors used in the APA equilizer algorythm. SImple key to it; innings, wins. THere are lots of other little nuainces based on skill levels against whom you play, etc.. but, in it's simpliest form... it's all predicated around 50% win baseline and win/innings.
 
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Maniac said:
..........
If there is anyone out there that KNOWS anything how the skill level system works in the APA, basically what I want to know is, is it possible to drop two skill levels that quickly and if not, what should I do about this?

Maniac
Click to expand...

The short answer to the first part of your question is YES, skill levels can fluctuate wildly, especially with new players.

What you can do about it is talk to the LO as he has a significant amout of discretionary power to adjust skill levels. Further, the APA has it within their powers to adjust highest attainable skill levels that go even beyond that of the LO.


FYI - the basic formula for determining skill levels is the number of match innings minus defensive shots divided by games won. This number is then matched to range for a given skill level. For example a SL7 plays a five game match and wins in 8 innings with 3 defensive shots (safeties). Therefor 8 innings minus 3 defensives shots equals a net of 5 innings. A SL7 has an inning benchmark of 0-1 innings per game IIRC so his score of 5 match innings is appropriate for his skill level. Another factor used by the APA is the "applied skill level" which basically means that even if the SL7 had won in 20 innings instead of 5 because he is a SL7 the benchmark is automatically applied to his score. Some of this information is possibly outdated as the APA has changed or modified is formula over the years since I first learned of this but the basic formula is still used, I believe.

For more information you may want to google rec.sport.billiards from about 10 years or so back as this has been a hot button topic there many times and the "true" formula was once disclosed there. BTW, the formula is proprietary to the APA and they did not then and probably would not now take kindly to the formula being placed in public arena.

As other poster have suggested, just go with the flow. Theoretically SL's will even themselves out over time even though it does not seem so in the "real world", especially when you have just lost to a SL3 or whatever that turned in a SL7 performance.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Stoney
 
Handicaps are inaccurate with new players. A new 4 might lose their first match to a lower rankes player, and depending on innings and defenses, could very well drop to a 2. Until there are a sufficient number of matches played for handicaps to stablize, it's very possible for them to not reflect the actual skill of the player. That's why the APA requires new players to play a minimum of 8 matches their first session in order to participate in the playoffs.

Keep the scores accurately, and the handicaps will take care of themselves.

Steve
 
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