Question about nickel silver rings

[JBCustomCues]

I would like your opion on how to keep nickel silver rings raising through the clear. Weather its how its assembled or the epoxy you use or so be it.
Any input would helpful

 

[Varney Cues]

I have no problems with them...I don't use them on my cues.

 

[jazznpool]

duh...edited.

Martin

I would like your opion on how to keep nickel silver rings raising through the clear. Weather its how its assembled or the epoxy you use or so be it.
Any input would helpful

 

[Cue Crazy]

You can slightly under cut the rings or file as Martin mentioned, and sometimes that helps, but if there is alot of movement in the materials, It may just push the finish up anyway. Sometimes I can just cut them flush, and no problems, they stay that way, then other times they lift a hair if I don't under cut them slightly. I've seen lifting in almost all type metal rings. To Me the easiest to work with seem to be aluminum & sterling silver. The nic/silver are rough on cutters, and have alot of pushoff if your tooling is'nt very sharp. Brass aren't bad on tools, but even those seem to lift. Sometimes It's the materials around them shrinking that causes It, so I suppose the right sealer may help also, but I dought I know of any sealers Your not already aware of.

I don't know If It was a fluke, but one time I cut the tenons a little smaller then the rings, all other parts were sized to to fit the tenons snug, just the metal ring was a hair bigger. The rings on that one held fine, stayed flush, and I never undercut or filed them, just a flush cut with the router. I would think that this allowed expansion near the tenon instead of the OD, but due to the fact the expoxy in the gap is probably harder the the wood tenon would be anyway, I don't see how that could be, so it probably was just a fluke, because I've been able to flush cut before with no problems even when the rings were snug to the tenon. Guess I'm talking in circles, because I simply don't have a straight forward answer. Wish I did.

The only other thing I can think of, that is probably the best method I've tried is- I have let the cue hang after the final cut, and gave the rings time to move, so that they lift alittle bit on their own, and before finishing the cue I trim the rings only, slightly undercutting with a sharp tool, but not enough that anyone could see it through the finish, then I level the area off with sealer & finish the cue. Everytime you do a flush trim through all the materials the metal rings might want to stand up atleast once, kind of like a tip shrooning, sometimes you can trim the tip It'self with a razor and it holds from there on out. That is caused by compresion though, and not exactly the same as the ring movement, but sometimes the rings hold after that first time just the same as some tips do.

I aggree with Varney though, At one time not long ago, I wanted to use them in almost everything, but I've grown to dislike using them, and I'd rather not use them at all now, that's the easiest way to solve the problem in My book., but they do look nice when done right, and that's what some people want in a cue. Good luck with them.

Greg C

 

[pdcue]

You can slightly under cut the rings or file as Martin mentioned, and sometimes that helps, but if there is alot of movement in the materials, It may just push the finish up anyway. Sometimes I can just cut them flush, and no problems, they stay that way, then other times they lift a hair if I don't under cut them slightly. I've seen lifting in almost all type metal rings. To Me the easiest to work with seem to be aluminum & sterling silver. The nic/silver are rough on cutters, and have alot of pushoff if your tooling is'nt very sharp. Brass aren't bad on tools, but even those seem to lift. Sometimes It's the materials around them shrinking that causes It, so I suppose the right sealer may help also, but I dought I know of any sealers Your not already aware of.

I don't know If It was a fluke, but one time I cut the tenons a little smaller then the rings, all other parts were sized to to fit the tenons snug, just the metal ring was a hair bigger. The rings on that one held fine, stayed flush, and I never undercut or filed them, just a flush cut with the router. I would think that this allowed expansion near the tenon instead of the OD, but due to the fact the expoxy in the gap is probably harder the the wood tenon would be anyway, I don't see how that could be, so it probably was just a fluke, because I've been able to flush cut before with no problems even when the rings were snug to the tenon. Guess I'm talking in circles, because I simply don't have a straight forward answer. Wish I did.

The only other thing I can think of, that is probably the best method I've tried is- I have let the cue hang after the final cut, and gave the rings time to move, so that they lift alittle bit on their own, and before finishing the cue I trim the rings only, slightly undercutting with a sharp tool, but not enough that anyone could see it through the finish, then I level the area off with sealer & finish the cue. Everytime you do a flush trim through all the materials the metal rings might want to stand up atleast once, kind of like a tip shrooning, sometimes you can trim the tip It'self with a razor and it holds from there on out. That is caused by compresion though, and not exactly the same as the ring movement, but sometimes the rings hold after that first time just the same as some tips do.

I aggree with Varney though, At one time not long ago, I wanted to use them in almost everything, but I've grown to dislike using them, and I'd rather not use them at all now, that's the easiest way to solve the problem in My book., but they do look nice when done right, and that's what some people want in a cue. Good luck with them.

Greg C

FWIW - the rings are Nickel(uss. aprox 18%) steel.
I doubt they do much moving. It is the wood and plastic
near them that move<swell/shrink>

Dale

 

[Cue Crazy]

FWIW - the rings are Nickel(uss. aprox 18%) steel.
I doubt they do much moving. It is the wood and plastic
near them that move<swell/shrink>

Dale

Thanks Dale, Yes I know somewhere in the back of My mind , someone told me that once before when I called them that. I guess I just called them what I've seen others call them in the past or how they were listed somewhere a long time ago. Bad habit of mine, and My appologies They are definantly harder metals, and you have to have a very sharp tool to cut them. I aggree, and I did mention that sometimes It's the materials around them. I was refering to wood and composites. I guess I should have left out the keyword "sometimes" , because It actually has alot more to do with what happens then the metals actually expanding. I guess By letting the cue rest, It gives me a chance to trim them while the shrinkage is bottomed out so to speak. Some metals do expand, so I guess I sort of imagine that as a partial cause sometimes also, but they probably only expand at such high tempatures that the cue would be ruined before any major amount took place in the rings anyhow.

The fluke paragraph I guess I spaced out on alittle bit there . Please disregard that one completely . I probably just had less movement around the rings that time for some reason or another.

Funny thing I have one cue, phenolic on the ends with one side of rings up against phenolic on the ends because the whole thing is sleeved with phenolic also, and the other sides of the end rings are against wood, then inbetween there are a few rings sandwiched Between 2 different woods. The part where the phenolics meet the rings have a very slight amount of lifting, but where the rings are sandwiched by wood there is none, and It's really smooth feeling. In theory I tend to think that wood might have more movement then phenolic, but is It possible that I'm wrong, It could be the opposite way around, and the phenolic actually shrinks more then the wood does? the only lifting at all is where the rings meet phenolic for some reason, so It has me baffled. I know phenolic has a higher heat tolorence, so may be better for wrapping harder metals, but what about shrinkage. I thought it was good for that also for some reason, but Have no real idea of where I got that impression from in the first place.


Greg

 

[desert1pocket]

I agree with others that it is not the rings that are the doing the moving. The best solution IMO is very well seasoned wood. Wood will always move some with changes in it's environment, but it will do so much less when properly seasoned. There are some ways to speed up the seasoning process, but the best method is patience. Of course one fix could be to make sure that all of your customers keep every one of your cues at the same humidity level and temperature at all times, forever, and preferably the same temp and humidity as your shop.

 

[KD Cues]

rings

Try not to border the rings with anything but phenolic. The expansion/contraction rate will not be so different. Do not put nickel silver rings directly next to wood. Finally, make sure that the cue has cured to a reasonable stability, the longer the better, prior to final cut. Good luck, Kent

 

[Poulos Cues]

Try not to border the rings with anything but phenolic. The expansion/contraction rate will not be so different. Do not put nickel silver rings directly next to wood. Finally, make sure that the cue has cured to a reasonable stability, the longer the better, prior to final cut. Good luck, Kent

I sand the surfaces, really ruff 'em up so that they have many criss-cross patterns which provides a better grip for the epoxy. The thinner epoxy the better IMO.

I also have grooving bars specially ground to the width of the silver rings and bump 'em a thou or two under and then seal them. This seems to help tremendously.

Another way might be to machine a phenolic register for the whole ring assembly to slide over...this way if the tenon should move..the whole assembly would move with it. I would still cut the silver down some for insurance though.

Good luck,
Chris

 

[JBCustomCues]

Thanks to all for all the great info. I have lots of different things that I want to try when it comes to ring work. I know that questions like this are trade secrets for most cue makers so once again thanks.

 

[cutter]

Question about nicker silver rings

Ok let the mud throwing begin. As was started earlier, no silver in nickel silver, sometimes called German Silver. It's coefficient of expansion will not cause it to move, unless you use a blow torch. Wood will always expand and contract, no matter how well it is "seasoned", it's about moisture content and that is directly related to the humidity level it is in.
You could hang a piece of wood in the driest place on earth for a hundred years and then move it to the tropics and it will swell. The better sealed it is the slower it absorbs or gives off moisture. Seasoning wood has more to do with relieving stress than controlling moisture content. Some guys have all kinds of dehumidifiers or humidifiers in their shops. And get upset if someone passes gas in there. Then they put on a quick top coat and out the door it goes to who knows where and who knows what humidity level. Something missing in that logic IMHO.
Gluing the wood to the rings won't help, wood that wants to move, will move. Epoxy may slow it done, but not much. Undercutting the ring doesn't affect the material next to it, so not to sure about that idea. Cutting the ring a little recessed will work if the material next to it shrinks, but if it expands, you still have a problem. Best idea I heard was only put it next to phenolic or even better try and stay away from it. Sometimes you can't, but years down the road, it will move. Actually, it won't something else will.

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

Metal Rings

Ok let the mud throwing begin. As was started earlier, no silver in nickel silver, sometimes called German Silver. It's coefficient of expansion will not cause it to move, unless you use a blow torch. Wood will always expand and contract, no matter how well it is "seasoned", it's about moisture content and that is directly related to the humidity level it is in.
You could hang a piece of wood in the driest place on earth for a hundred years and then move it to the tropics and it will swell. The better sealed it is the slower it absorbs or gives off moisture. Seasoning wood has more to do with relieving stress than controlling moisture content. Some guys have all kinds of dehumidifiers or humidifiers in their shops. And get upset if someone passes gas in there. Then they put on a quick top coat and out the door it goes to who knows where and who knows what humidity level. Something missing in that logic IMHO.
Gluing the wood to the rings won't help, wood that wants to move, will move. Epoxy may slow it done, but not much. Undercutting the ring doesn't affect the material next to it, so not to sure about that idea. Cutting the ring a little recessed will work if the material next to it shrinks, but if it expands, you still have a problem. Best idea I heard was only put it next to phenolic or even better try and stay away from it. Sometimes you can't, but years down the road, it will move. Actually, it won't something else will.

Solid factual information - thanks,

Good cuemaking,