Question about one's professional status.

[Donny Lutz]

pro vs. amateur

Okie-

Do I read you correctly? If I play in a $5 entry tournament and go 2 and out, I'm a professional?

Back in the '60s, the NCAA rules were so tough that if you won $1 in any sports event (pool, bowling, etc.), regardless of the entry fee, you could no longer compete in any college sports!!!

I think your idea about no cash in amateur tournaments lacks logic. Besides the fact that it would chase many away from the game.
There are amateurs who like to play only league and those who like to play only tournaments. Why restrict them.

Noone has ever played NO amateur events and then become a professional overnight. Allowing only the best players to have access to $ winnings would actually prevent players to get to that level.

Most of us began playing for rather small amounts (myself, 25 cents a game in 1955), and gradually built our games so we could play for more.
The same for tournaments. We start small and progress.

Would you take the same position on pro baseball? Pay the major leaguers cash but have the Class A, AA, etc., play for trophies?* No, there are opportunities for players in most all sports to compete for cash at any level of play. You don't expect folks to step into big dollar events (and win) with no experience in small dollar events, do you?

*In 1987, I threw away my collection of over 100 trophies. Couldn't find a recipe to cook them, when I didn't have $$ amateur events to pay for groceries...

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor

 

[Neil]

Here's the problem with classifying sponsorship as a requirement to be a pro- you have an APA team. They are sponsored by their local bar. So... now you have to list a bunch of APA 2's and 3's as pros. Nope, that definition doesn't hold water.

What classifications do we now have? D,C,B,A,AA(or shortstop),AAA (or pro), and then some like to add "elite" pro.

Why do we have these classifications? To help determine handicaps. So, if you want to classify a pro under any other definition other than skill at the table, you now have screwed the handicaps up.You now have a player that plays at pro caliber playing in a weaker category just because he isn't sponsored by someone because he might be too big a jerk to represent anyone but himself. (NO implication to previously mentioned pro player in this thread)

So, in my mind, the only correct way to determine a pro is by skill level. After all, the skill level is the only thing that really matters.

 

[Okie]

Okie-

Do I read you correctly? If I play in a $5 entry tournament and go 2 and out, I'm a professional?

Back in the '60s, the NCAA rules were so tough that if you won $1 in any sports event (pool, bowling, etc.), regardless of the entry fee, you could no longer compete in any college sports!!!

I think your idea about no cash in amateur tournaments lacks logic. Besides the fact that it would chase many away from the game.
There are amateurs who like to play only league and those who like to play only tournaments. Why restrict them.

Noone has ever played NO amateur events and then become a professional overnight. Allowing only the best players to have access to $ winnings would actually prevent players to get to that level.

Most of us began playing for rather small amounts (myself, 25 cents a game in 1955), and gradually built our games so we could play for more.
The same for tournaments. We start small and progress.

Would you take the same position on pro baseball? Pay the major leaguers cash but have the Class A, AA, etc., play for trophies?* No, there are opportunities for players in most all sports to compete for cash at any level of play. You don't expect folks to step into big dollar events (and win) with no experience in small dollar events, do you?

*In 1987, I threw away my collection of over 100 trophies. Couldn't find a recipe to cook them, when I didn't have $$ amateur events to pay for groceries...

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor

We all know there are rules and there is reality.

Yes, if a golfer plays in a tournament that pays cash he is by definition a professional. But you know in reality most don't give a crap about what the USGA thinks about their status. That is until they go to play in a state/regional/national USGA sanctioned amateur event. Then their eligibility could be questioned. I have seen it happen to players but it doesn't happen often.

I agree that pool players do not want to play for trophies. I know I don't. I am as much a professional pool player as I was a professional golfer. Well not quite since I was a PGA member but anyways...

I doubt very seriously that amateur events would go over very well in today's environment. My statement was more to show the definition of professional. I was not trying to change the world. I do get to rambling sometimes. I apologize if it bothered ya.

However, amateur events would go a long way to protect the weaker players from the stronger players. New players have to be nurtured. They have to feel welcomed. They need to feel a sense of success occasionally for them to continue their involvement with a competition. Amateur events would also be a good place for kids to compete and learn from the heat of battle.

I am rambling again... :embarrassed2:

Ken

 

[cardiac kid]

Regarding your comment about tax returns, or whether they derive enough income to have a house etc.

Gee, I'm suppose to file income tax returns on my pool winnings ? What a country! Seriously, do "professional" pool players claim their gambling winnings? Have to file because of the 1099's I receive. That does allow me to deduct all my pool related expenses. Practice time, travel costs, entry fees, etc. Sounds like an interesting sideline for amateur players. If the 1%'ers can do it, why can't we ?

Lyn

 

[itsfroze]

One can play at a "pro" level. That does not make one a pro.

I don't think it has anything at all to do with tournaments, rankings, memberships, or sponsorship.

If you make your living at pool, you are a pro. If you don't, you are not, though you may play at a "pro" level.


As for what it costs to enter a tournament, pool players have been crying about others being better than them probably since the game was invented. Who cares what somebody else pays? If you want to play, then pay, and win if you can.

Of course, I have a strange view about a lot of these things since I was never a tournament player. I just couldn't eat trophies.





.

And I guess the money you could have won wouldn't have tasted very good either.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Gee, I'm suppose to file income tax returns on my pool winnings ? What a country! Seriously, do "professional" pool players claim their gambling winnings? Have to file because of the 1099's I receive. That does allow me to deduct all my pool related expenses. Practice time, travel costs, entry fees, etc. Sounds like an interesting sideline for amateur players. If the 1%'ers can do it, why can't we ?

Lyn

You should talk to an accountant. I think you're right. The moment it's a business, all of the costs associated with that business can be deducted and, not just from the amount of your 1099 but from your overall income. It'd be quite comical if by "paying taxes" for winnings, you are immediately eligible for a big tax return.

 

[lfigueroa]

The word or designator "pro" means different things to different audiences.

For all practical purposes, unless you are young and new to the scene, if you play at a high level at a few events you will be labeled a "pro" by the vast majority of the pool playing community, regardless of whether the game is your primary source of income, you have a sponsor(s), or have a job. I think among top flight players the title means something else and they parse it more carefully.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Six Shooter]

pro·fes·sion/prəˈfeSHən/
Noun:
A paid occupation, esp. one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.
A body of people engaged in a particular profession.

If you have played in an event that pays cash you are a professional. You might not be able to make a living at this profession but that is not relevant to the definition.

There is no need to invent terms. Not all professions are viable after their time has passed. That doesn't mean a profession won't/can't make a come back!

My spin on tournaments and such...

Amateur events should limit prizes to merchandise and gift certificates. The prize should also be limited in size. Handicaps could be used in an amateur event.

Professional events would pay cash. Handicaps would not be used.

Protects amateur and weaker players until they are ready to move up the ladder. If they choose not to move up then the handicap system would help level the playing field. This also satisfies the better players since they will be taking cash off of the up and comers without having to spot them. This method also helps merchandise sales for the establishment.

Sound familiar? This is how golf rolls.

I have never played in what I would call an amateur pool event.

am·a·teur/ˈamətər/
Noun:
A person who engages in a pursuit, esp. a sport, on an unpaid basis

Food for thought...

Ken

So. If I understand the part of playing in an event that pays cash, then by this definition, I would be considered a pro?

Further, the few bar box tourneys held in a bar or in my local Oklahoma rooms when I was young and still lived there that I won or at least cashed in, would classify me as a pro?

Interesting. Never thought of it in that manner.

I'm not pro or pro caliber. Not even close.