Question about one's professional status.

inside_english

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This has been discussed many times about who is a pro, what constitutes being a pro etc.

I wanted to pose a fresh question to the forum because I would like some clarification as it relates to tournament play.

In my opinion (albeit somewhat under-informed), a professional pool player is one who has sponsorship..not just someone who plays full-time.

To me, a full-time pool player could, for all intents and purposes, be a bum who simply does not want a 9-5 job and enjoys the hustle, being on the road, etc.

Conversely, a professional can have a 9-5 job as long as they have sponsorship. They may not be as successful as the player who has the opportunity to play full-time, but there it is.

Now, there are players who play good enough to beat many pros and finish high in big events, but may not consider themselves professional pool players.

Additionally, one could receive sponsorship (tee shirts, patches, paid entries into select events) and be considered professional.

I am asking for clarification and opinions because I have seen (as I am sure you have) where very strong regional players are charged entry fees as though they are professionals just because they play very well.

Many times we have heard, "That guy should pay the higher entry fee because he plays good enough to be a pro!"

Since there is fierce debate about which entity is the governing body of pool in the U.S. this may be a difficult question to answer.

For example, most everyone in the NE knows who Ryan McCreesh is (genie man on the boards). He has played in the U.S. Open and done well, he has won countless events, and is a known, strong regional player. If he were to enter The Action Pool Tour event or a Planet Pool Tour event he would be charged an entry fee as a pro...but in my opinion...he is NOT a pro. Unless he has sponsorship of some kind, but even then, what level of sponsorship validates this status? I am not picking on Ryan by any means, quite the contrary. I thought he would be a good example because he is so well-known.

If I were running a tournament he would pay the amateur price, but that is probably just me. Otherwise he is simply being punished for being a good player.

Bobby Chamberlain is another example. He says he is a pro but he is also a successful business owner. So who is really a pro and who isn't? What should the criteria be?

Donny Mills, another successful business owner...pro or not? Perhaps he has sponsorship, I don't know.

Anyway, you get the point.

Looking forward to thoughts, opinions, etc.
 
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some good players play in alot of open pro events.....that doesnt make them a pro...i would say A+ players/open players could be considered pro players..... but there are many diffrent levels from A+ to top pro
 
I think your sponsorship criterion should not apply. That would mean that their pro status is completely determined by an outsider's interpretation of their marketability. There may be many pool players who are "marketable" and get sponsorships due to some criteria ("assets" or "connections", for example) that may have little to do with their pool playing ability.

No measurement is perfect, but I think the best definition of a pro is whether he/she derives most income from competition.

Edit: I realize that there are outliers in some sports who have gained so much sponsorship (e.g. Tiger Woods, Sharapova) that it dwarfs their competition income, but those people are an insignificant percentage of the pros, overall.
 
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One can play at a "pro" level. That does not make one a pro.

I don't think it has anything at all to do with tournaments, rankings, memberships, or sponsorship.

If you make your living at pool, you are a pro. If you don't, you are not, though you may play at a "pro" level.


As for what it costs to enter a tournament, pool players have been crying about others being better than them probably since the game was invented. Who cares what somebody else pays? If you want to play, then pay, and win if you can.

Of course, I have a strange view about a lot of these things since I was never a tournament player. I just couldn't eat trophies. :D





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a professional is someone who earns his living in a chosen field. there are many types of professionals in any given industry. there are people who work for big corporations. those who are running a small business and those who are solo in their endeavors. say shane van boening would be the big corporate type in this anology. the flip side of my argument would be a road player; ronnie wiseman for example. a house pro would be another example of a guy working in an establishment teaching the game and making an income.
 
This has been discussed many times about who is a pro, what constitutes being a pro etc.

I wanted to pose a fresh question to the forum because I would like some clarification as it relates to tournament play. ...
Is this just from curiosity or is there a practical reason to know?

Some tournaments have restrictions on pros entering. Each one seems to have a different set of criteria. Those are the "official" designators if you are looking for actual authorities.

If you want opinions, here's mine: I look at the money list and if a player is making enough each year to buy a house and put some away for retirement after he pays all his expenses, then he is a pro. I suppose I should include sponsorship money, but that seems to be getting less and less significant. How many players are getting even $20,000/year in cash?

Another way would be to look at tax returns.
 
It's really very simple. There are a handful of players out there that are "professional" and the rest are pro-caliber which is often regarded as simply "pro". I say this not to disrespect anyone but to convey a simple truth - there's no money in pool. There is no money in pool. There is no money in pool.

Many of pool's top players have jobs. Some of them have jobs by choice. MANY are working because they have to. Could they manage with an all-pool income? Maybe. It depends heavily on what opportunities are available to them in their immediate location and it would be unfair for anyone to suggest anything else.

I don't think there are very many players out there that are truly gambling for a living. It's just too hard now. I see New York City go through waves where there's lots of gambling for a month and then there's nothing. I can't see anyone relying on this.

So, I think people should move away from a pure defintion of "professional" and think of it as, "pro-caliber". In my opinion, "pro-caliber" players are those that are capable of winning an open event such as the US Open, BCA Open, 14.1 World Championships or any Derby City event. I would probably also agree that many regional tournaments could only be won by a pro-caliber player but I think it would depend heavily on the particular tour.
 
I think everyone should pay the same entry fees. I see only one reason to have higher fees for really good players, to keep them out.

This is class warfare. One class of player having to pay more than another just because they play better than the other.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
 
The BCA, the supposed organization that is governing professional pool in the United States, used to have a BCA Master List. Anybody on that list was considered a pro.

Today, some regional tours have banned so-called pro-players. It is determined by word of mouth, how many previous tournaments they have won, et cetera. There is no science how it's figured out.

I think this is a semantics problem in using the word "pro."

A better description may be any pool player who has competed in a so-called pro-caliber event, like the U.S. Open, or maybe if there was a handicap system like the leagues, on a scale of 2 to 9, the 7, 8, and 9 players are considered "pros" and are not allowed to play in amateur events and/or must pay a higher entry fee.

I think if one is to eliminate the word "pro" and come with a better description, such as a handicapping scale or earnings to date, that may be a better measuring stick.
 
pro·fes·sion/prəˈfeSHən/
Noun:
A paid occupation, esp. one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.
A body of people engaged in a particular profession.


If you have played in an event that pays cash you are a professional. You might not be able to make a living at this profession but that is not relevant to the definition.

There is no need to invent terms. Not all professions are viable after their time has passed. That doesn't mean a profession won't/can't make a come back!

My spin on tournaments and such...

Amateur events should limit prizes to merchandise and gift certificates. The prize should also be limited in size. Handicaps could be used in an amateur event.

Professional events would pay cash. Handicaps would not be used.

Protects amateur and weaker players until they are ready to move up the ladder. If they choose not to move up then the handicap system would help level the playing field. This also satisfies the better players since they will be taking cash off of the up and comers without having to spot them. This method also helps merchandise sales for the establishment.

Sound familiar? This is how golf rolls.

I have never played in what I would call an amateur pool event.

am·a·teur/ˈamətər/
Noun:
A person who engages in a pursuit, esp. a sport, on an unpaid basis


Food for thought...

Ken
 
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pro·fes·sion/prəˈfeSHən/
Noun:
A paid occupation, esp. one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.
A body of people engaged in a particular profession.


If you have played in an event that pays cash you are a professional. You might not be able to make a living at this profession but that is not relevant to the definition.

There is no need to invent terms. Not all professions are viable after their time has passed. That doesn't mean a profession won't/can't make a come back!

My spin on tournaments and such...

Amateur events should limit prizes to merchandise and gift certificates. The prize should also be limited in size. Handicaps could be used in an amateur event.

Professional events would pay cash. Handicaps would not be used.

Protects amateur and weaker players until they are ready to move up the ladder. If they choose not to move up then the handicap system would help level the playing field. This also satisfies the better players since they will be taking cash off of the up and comers without having to spot them. This method also helps merchandise sales for the establishment.

Sound familiar? This is how golf rolls.

I have never played in what I would call an amateur pool event.

am·a·teur/ˈamətər/
Noun:
A person who engages in a pursuit, esp. a sport, on an unpaid basis


Food for thought...

Ken

Excellent food for thought! :cool:
 
From what I was told by Sarah Rousey a couple of years ago, a sponsorship more times than not will only be an entry fee and or a cue,patches etc. she said a lot of times a "sponsored" player can have upwards of a couple thousand dollies invested in rooms,travel and food for certain events. Maybe she will chime in
 
In golf you are a professional if you have ever accepted money for placing in an event. One of the greatest golfers who ever lived, Bobby Jones, never accepted prize money because he didn't want to lose his amateur status.

By golf's definition you would be a professional if you once won $50 in a local tournament.

Personally I would narrow the definition to say that you are a professional if you make more than 50% of your income from prize money and/or sponsorship.

I intend to turn pro once I can run 5 balls :D, on a barbox, with wide pockets.
 
Is this just from curiosity or is there a practical reason to know?

Some tournaments have restrictions on pros entering. Each one seems to have a different set of criteria. Those are the "official" designators if you are looking for actual authorities.

If you want opinions, here's mine: I look at the money list and if a player is making enough each year to buy a house and put some away for retirement after he pays all his expenses, then he is a pro. I suppose I should include sponsorship money, but that seems to be getting less and less significant. How many players are getting even $20,000/year in cash?

Another way would be to look at tax returns.
It's both.

I have run a few tournaments and I had everyone pay the same entry fee...no complaints.

I have played in *many* events with staggered entry fees, and have never agreed with them, but I don't complain and play anyway.

The real confusion begins when tournament directors and promoters start using the "semi-pro" designation...which is totally bogus and inaccurate in my opinion.

Regarding your comment about tax returns, or whether they derive enough income to have a house etc. we can use real-world examples like Matt Krah from Delaware or Brandon Shuff from Virginia. Brandon plays for a living and has sponsorship. Matt is a working man, has sponsorship and pays pro-level entry fees in regional events.

Neither makes enough money per year to buy a house and stash for retirement after expenses...at least not yet.

So.......
 
In golf you are a professional if you have ever accepted money for placing in an event. One of the greatest golfers who ever lived, Bobby Jones, never accepted prize money because he didn't want to lose his amateur status.

By golf's definition you would be a professional if you once won $50 in a local tournament.

Personally I would narrow the definition to say that you are a professional if you make more than 50% of your income from prize money and/or sponsorship.

I intend to turn pro once I can run 5 balls :D, on a barbox, with wide pockets.

You are very close. The amount you can win is irrelevant. correct. However, you lose your amateur status if you compete in a professional event without stating beforehand that you will receive no prize money if you place. You lose that status until it is re-instated by the USGA. This is a formal process.

I was a golf professional for almost 15 years. By definition I am still a professional even after not playing for 15+ years. I have had friends encourage me to apply to regain my amateur status but I just don't care since I only play 2-3 times a year now. Also, if I do play in a tournament I don't want a handful of certificates for my efforts. This is how amateurs are protected. Someone who invests a lot of time to build a skill does not want to play for merchandise.

I should add that I could not make a living playing professionally. I reckon if I had done well the first time you heard the name Ken Jennings would not have been for a Jeopardy win! :D

I agree 100% on Bobby Jones! His skill was so far ahead of his peers it was sick. But like pool now, there was not enough money to warrant him playing golf professionally. However, he did benefit financially due to his golf expertise. Name recognition is a valuable asset.

Scott Verplank won the Western Open back in the day as an amateur. 84 or 85 I think. No idea who finished 2nd but I bet he was tickled pink!

Ken
 
i would have to disagree with the "sponsor" qualification. anybody can get a sponsor. if you a have a friend that has a sucessful business and he wants to give you money to enter a few tournaments and wear a patch or tshirt with his company's logo, would getting extra money in that way really have any bearing on your status?
a friend of mine who is a fairly good player explained it to me like this and this seems legit to me. how much of your income is directly related to your playing. doesn't matter hustling, tournaments, instructing whatever. if you make your living doing it, your a professional. and that stands up to me becasue it's true across all walks of life. what ever you do for a living that is your profession, hence there is your professional status. it doesn't mean your the best, it's your profession.
by that logic i can understand how donnie mills might get into events not labled as a pro. his profession, from what i've read on here (so how true it is i don't know), is that he owns a car lot. therefore he is a car salesman / buisness owner who happens to play a strong game of pool. on the other side of the coin is johnny archer. he makes his money playing pool, owning a room, giving lessons and traveling the country doing exhibitions. he is a professional pool player.
that is how i have come to resolve the issue in my mind.
 
what makes a pro

I my opinion pro pool players should be like golf. In golf if you win prize money over (I think) $1,500 you have to declare yourself a pro or donate the money. In pool there should be some sort of standard like maybe if you win more than $500 from a tournament you are now a pro for 1 year. After 1 year you can declare yourself an amatuer.
 
Until there's an official governing body, there can be no official definition. There can only be multiple competing definitions from wannabe-governing bodies... just as there are multiple sets of rules and multiple standards for equipment.

In which case, pick the standard you like and promote it.

--

If you just want opinions, I think a pro is someone who regularly enters and cashes in high level events. "Regularly" would take some defining, "cashes" too... who cares if someone keeps winning their entry fee back? And "high level events" isn't a long list but it would still need to be defined. Basically if someone is good enough to win tour stops, and goes out of their way to do so several times a year, that's a pro player.

I think "earns enough to make a living" is too strict a definition. Sadly, half of last year's women's money list are actually near or below the poverty line. http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000thepros.php?year=2011&filter=F

The men's list isn't much better, about a dozen from the top 30 earn less than the average plumber.
 
I like the definition used by golfers. It is a matter of record.

Accept money for placing in an open event and you are a professional.

Simple, straightforward, and easily proved (in most cases).

Older players or those past their prime can play in senior events.
 
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