Question about planning for runout in 8-ball

[jwalko1]

I play 8-ball in a league. I know that you should play at least 3 shots ahead when planning, but many of the better players I talk to plan the whole rack before deciding even which to chose (solids or stripes).

I'm having trouble planning the whole rack in advance...seems like I have trouble envisioning 7 or 8 shots ahead. This is one of the reasons I like 9-ball...9-ball (or any rotation game) will tell you what shot to shoot next. In 8-ball, I often find that I get into the rack only to end up with a ball or two locked up (with no apparent way to break) or get out of position on a shot or two that screws up my run. I realize this is because of poor planning...but that's what I'm having trouble with.

BTW, 2-3 shots ahead doesn't seem like enough for consistent run outs in 8ball for me.

What can I do to practice "seeing" this many shots ahead? Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Thank you;

John

 

[Scott Lee]

jwalko1...One of the most important decisions in 8-ball is when to try to run out, and when not to. Many players make the mistake of trying to run out all the time. While your higher skilled friends may THINK out a potential run, when they are actually playing, it's still 3rd ball position. This is because you want to get an angle and keep an angle. The optimum angle is generally 30 degrees, which keeps the shot making simple, and allows for position anywhere on the table, without too much excess effort. Champion 8-ball players all do basically the same thing. The first thing they do is called 8-ball liability. This means is there a path to a pocket for the game ball, or do you have to create one (during the run). The second thing is a link ball to the game ball (some people call this a key ball). Usually you will want your link ball to be a stopshot, so that there is absolute control. Other things are clusters, transition shots, two way shots, hangers/ducks, etc. All of these things are looked at during the initial "walk around the table" after the break, before proceeding. If you follow this direction, you will start playing better 8-ball...as long as you have a stroke you can depend on, to make the shot, on demand, under pressure, in one try. If you don't have complete trust in your stroke, then seek out a qualified instructor who can help you identify errors, and help you create your 'best process'. Hope this helps...

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

 

[ENGLISH!]

I play 8-ball in a league. I know that you should play at least 3 shots ahead when planning, but many of the better players I talk to plan the whole rack before deciding even which to chose (solids or stripes).

I'm having trouble planning the whole rack in advance...seems like I have trouble envisioning 7 or 8 shots ahead. This is one of the reasons I like 9-ball...9-ball (or any rotation game) will tell you what shot to shoot next. In 8-ball, I often find that I get into the rack only to end up with a ball or two locked up (with no apparent way to break) or get out of position on a shot or two that screws up my run. I realize this is because of poor planning...but that's what I'm having trouble with.

BTW, 2-3 shots ahead doesn't seem like enough for consistent run outs in 8ball for me.

What can I do to practice "seeing" this many shots ahead? Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Thank you;

John

Hi John.

For me, sometimes the whole run is there, all 8 balls. Sometimes I only see 5, but I also see the 8 ball backwards. I know where I want to be for the 8 which tells me what ball before the 8 & the one before that. So in essence I see the whole run but I'm not quite sure how I'm going to make the connection. So I will make a change, usually to the front end, until the whole run is there. If there are any problem balls I also see how I would like to move them. Keep in mind I might do it at anytime from the first to the second to last shot if it is the 8 ball.

I've won the most run outs trophy in my leagues many many times. However, keep in mind the win is the most important thing. I have often beat players that try to force the run out. I won't do that. I play for my mis so my opponent will have to work very hard if he or she is going to run out on me.

I hope this helps a bit.

Best Wishes & Good Luck.

 

[swest]

And just to reiterate on Scott's comment, the reason we talk about 3-balls ahead is because the shot on ball #1 has to position us on ball #2 so that when we shoot ball #2 we retain the ability to play some kind of shape on ball #3. This could be as simple as just guaranteeing that that we are on the correct side of ball #2.

Then, after shooting ball #1, we start it all over again, and ball #2 becomes ball #1 and we pick a new ball #3. That's why it's a minimum of 3 balls ahead.

In other words, barring problem balls, or the need for a breakout, we usually only require 3 balls ahead to maximize our chances to continue a run. More is better, because it might mean an easier sequence, but more than 3 is not a requirement.

- s.west (not an instructor)

 

[swest]

And, by the way, Scott's paragraph is spot-on guidance for 8-ball players. He has neatly summarized the critical elements involved in that game and I can assure you that everything he said goes through my own head when I approach the table.

You should make sure you understand everything he is saying because it is the way to approach the 8-ball runout.

 

[PGHteacher]

All the advice so far has been very good, especially Scott's. Much of it is good pool advice and you should take it as such. As far as "building better neural pathways so that you can more quickly see into the position and analyze the table farther into the run". I have an exercise that might help.

Spread the balls out in random configuration 6in away from every other ball and any pocket. Take BIH and try to run a suit, if you miss give yourself BIH again until you run out, spot the 8ball on the foot spot, if the foot is occupied spot it on the head spot if both are occupied spot it in the center. Give yourself BIH again and try to run the other suit. You will find yourself planning farther and farther ahead.

Is this the way to play 8ball? Well no it isn't; like in any game when you approach the table you have to ask yourself the big question "what's my best chance to win the game?" Try to run the table? Safe? Or sink & safe? The above exercise is to get you to plan farther, if you want to play better 8ball there are some very good books out there on it, I HIGHLY recommend that you get one of them.

8ball is probably the most underrated game strategically that there is, it is so rich in its subtleties that I could write about 5 pages of what the real strategy of the game is like but it has been written by better writers & players than me, again I really recommend that you avail yourself of that knowledge.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

1. Look at the 8-ball first, its intended pocket(s) and a key ball that leads to it.

2. Consider running the rack "outside-in" or the furthest ball from the 8-ball and then the next furthest and so on.

3. If you can't go outside-in, divide the table into sections in your mind and look for three object balls to form triangles you can send the cue ball inside for position on several shots at a time.

Just scratching the surface here. 8-Ball runs offer tremendous complexity and a lifetime of learning.

 

[Scott Lee]

swest...Thanks! :grin: The information came from 5 Grandmaster players, who, between them, had won 13 national 8-ball championships. They all summarized things almost exactly the same way (they were interviewed one at a time). This is an acute example of just some of what we teach about playing 8-ball in pool school. That said, it still boils down to "trusting your stroke"! All the knowledge in the world won't help an inconsistent stroke! :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

And, by the way, Scott's paragraph is spot-on guidance for 8-ball players. He has neatly summarized the critical elements involved in that game and I can assure you that everything he said goes through my own head when I approach the table.

You should make sure you understand everything he is saying because it is the way to approach the 8-ball runout.

 

[FranCrimi]

I play 8-ball in a league. I know that you should play at least 3 shots ahead when planning, but many of the better players I talk to plan the whole rack before deciding even which to chose (solids or stripes).

I'm having trouble planning the whole rack in advance...seems like I have trouble envisioning 7 or 8 shots ahead. This is one of the reasons I like 9-ball...9-ball (or any rotation game) will tell you what shot to shoot next. In 8-ball, I often find that I get into the rack only to end up with a ball or two locked up (with no apparent way to break) or get out of position on a shot or two that screws up my run. I realize this is because of poor planning...but that's what I'm having trouble with.

BTW, 2-3 shots ahead doesn't seem like enough for consistent run outs in 8ball for me.

What can I do to practice "seeing" this many shots ahead? Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Thank you;

John

I know this sounds a bit simplistic, but you have to keep practicing the game on your own. Once you are able to spot familiar mini patterns, you will be able to connect them to each other to form a runout. I think the key lies in familiarity, which comes from remembering. You can only remember what you've encountered before.

You may not have encountered the exact same shot or layout, but you may have encountered something similar, which is what will guide you in deciding how to go about connecting the dots of a particular table layout.

 

[Neil]

Go buy George Fels "Mastering Pool". And then study it.

 

[Ratta]

Well chosen words from Scott Lee- and what Fran shown up of course, too.
8-ball is really a game of expirience. You need a lot of knowledge to play it really good. You will learn a lot by playing better guys- watch them how they *use* strategy in this great game. Watch and keep attention how you sometimes get outplayed
If oyu practice 8ball don t hesitate to ask a friend , a good player or your opponent to ask *what would you do here* and WHY.

8 ball is much more complex than many ppl think.

Play your best 8ball by Capelle is a fantastic book also- you can learn a lot from here (big book-but imo the best book from Capelle-by far!)
Mastering Pool is also not bad-


lg
Ingo

 

[jwalko1]

Thanks everyone for the answers, and for the book recommendations. I'll definitely purchase one (or both) of those books. I worked on really focusing on the next three balls when practicing over the last couple of days. It is helping.

My challenge w/ 8 ball has been that I can fairly consistently run 5-6 balls...but getting all the way out has been a challenge. Will keep working on it.

By the way...i posted a few weeks ago about my stroke problems and it was recommended that I move my hand back to the end of the cue...just an update...that is working very well. I got used to the different feel and it is much easier to keep the stroke straight now, as compared to the inside-out motion I was seeing before. It did feel very weird for a couple of weeks...but feels more natural now.

You guys are great!

John

 

[ENGLISH!]

run out?

Hi John,

That 5 to 6 ball run is fairly common, I would suggest you re-read this thread & pay particular attention to what Mr. Lee, I & others have mentioned about identifying 'cluster/blocked balls & pathways'. Many times one has to shoot a different or more difficult shot during that 5 to 6 run in order to open up a problem ball to create either a pathway or an easier shot, in order to be able to complete the run out. Also a 5-6 ball run can certainly be enough to win the game depending on what you leave your opponent & what you leave yourself. You do not necessarily need to force for the run out.

Glad you worked out that grip position /stroke problem. Sounds like you're well on your way back to your more youthful exuberance. Pool playing wise that is.:wink:

Best Wishes,

 

[kanecalgary]

Great advice from everyone. I always look for balls that need to be bumped. I say bumped, cause that's all they usually need. So many players tend to hit hard breakouts when a little bump is all that is needed. Look for a shot from where the cluster is, in case you don't get on the breakout ball as a backup. The earlier the breakouts are done the better. Your plan can always change, just be confident in your out. Good luck!

 

[michael4]

In 8-ball, I often find that I get into the rack only to end up with a ball or two locked up (with no apparent way to break).

identify these trouble balls right away and figure out where the CB needs to be to either make these balls or open them up. Then try to get the CB into this position asap in the run.

(if they are make-able, make them, if not, bump them after making another ball, but try to leave yourself an easy open ball in case the trouble balls dont spread nicely)

(not an instructor) (But I have met one)

 

[DelaWho???]

Be ready to come up with plan B when you get out of position. At my skill level a lot of runs don't go as planned. You get on the wrong side of the ball or something gets bumped and tied up etc. Look at the table before each shot. Is the plan still viable? Did the table change? Do you see a better path?

When the plan falls apart don't try and force things, adapt and overcome.

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

I know this sounds a bit simplistic, but you have to keep practicing the game on your own. Once you are able to spot familiar mini patterns, you will be able to connect them to each other to form a runout. I think the key lies in familiarity, which comes from remembering. You can only remember what you've encountered before.

You may not have encountered the exact same shot or layout, but you may have encountered something similar, which is what will guide you in deciding how to go about connecting the dots of a particular table layout.

I really like Frans info here, i do this!