Question for high end collectors only!

[cueman]

As the title says I want the opinions of high end collectors or dealers of Hall of Fame caliper cues.
I have a high end Frank Paradise with a lot of inlay in it in for repair. It was missing a mother of pearl inlay and the butt plate was cracked. I replaced the inlay and pearl butt plate.
Here is the decision that needs to be made now.
The butt has almost 1/8" wobble at the joint and the cue has the original cortland wrap on it. I could get it pretty straight by removing the wrap cutting the cue and putting it back together. It would most likely lose the original wrap and would no longer be original construction. So the question as a collector would you rather have the original wrap and the warp or have a non original wrap and a straight butt? Which devalues it the most?

Here are some pictures that hopefully fit the screen.

 

[cueaddicts]

Chris,

Since the inlay and butt plate have been done already, I would say go ahead and rehandle the cue to get it straight. That's a pretty big warp as you describe. It's also possible that the wrap can be saved by carefully removing, washing and reinstalling, if it's not degraded too much. I would also suggest this....on the replaced inlay and butt plate, hope that the material is correct and if it's a notched diamond, the slot sizes in the new diamond match the other ones in the cue. Those older notched diamonds have much shorter slots, so it may be necessary to cut your own inlays to match. Steve Klein is doing a wonderful job with this on his new old school 'recreations'. I've seen some old Palmers and such where inlays have been replaced with newer, "stock" slotted diamonds with deep notches, and for me, that ruins an old cue just about as much as anything else that could be done to it. Best of luck with your resto work....hope we can see it here when it's done.

Hope this helps.
Sean

 

[cueman]

Chris,

Since the inlay and butt plate have been done already, I would say go ahead and rehandle the cue to get it straight. That's a pretty big warp as you describe. It's also possible that the wrap can be saved by carefully removing, washing and reinstalling, if it's not degraded too much. I would also suggest this....on the replaced inlay and butt plate, hope that the material is correct and if it's a notched diamond, the slot sizes in the new diamond match the other ones in the cue. Those older notched diamonds have much shorter slots, so it may be necessary to cut your own inlays to match. Steve Klein is doing a wonderful job with this on his new old school 'recreations'. I've seen some old Palmers and such where inlays have been replaced with newer, "stock" slotted diamonds with deep notches, and for me, that ruins an old cue just about as much as anything else that could be done to it. Best of luck with your resto work....hope we can see it here when it's done.

Hope this helps.
Sean

Thanks for the input. I have seen wraps come off okay and I have seen them just fall apart inch or two at a time. So I have no way of knowing for sure if I can save it. Luckily the inaly was a dot. So if the wrap can't be saved which is worst case senerio. Which do you feel will devalue it the most? New wrap or warp?

 

[cueaddicts]

Thanks for the input. I have seen wraps come off okay and I have seen them just fall apart inch or two at a time. So I have no way of knowing for sure if I can save it. Luckily the inaly was a dot. So if the wrap can't be saved which is worst case senerio. Which do you feel will devalue it the most? New wrap or warp?

imo, the warp if it's that significant....

 

[cuenut]

I agree with Sean completely, but want to clarify this is for vintage cues only. If you have already done some work on the cue, even if it was only to replace an inlay, which is going to require the cue be sprayed over, I consider the cue to be repaired, regardless of whether you replace the wrap or not. Value in terms of work done:

1 - Original cue in original condition
2 - Original cue in fair condition (not necessarily needing a refinish, but not unblemished.
3 - Original cue but refinished without repair by the original cuemaker
4 - Repaired by the original cuemaker
5 - Refinished by non-original cuemaker unless that cuemaker is not making cues any more or is deceased
6 - Repaired cue (inlays replaced, handle replaced, buttcap replaced, etc.)

I consider a repaired cue also to be refinished, as unless it was hand oil rubbed finished, the repair would require a refinish except in the case of only replacing a wrap.

I don't consider shaft work to make much different, but
1 - original full shafts +++
2 - original thin shafts +
3 - non original shafts -

Ferrule replacement would not be a deduct unless you went from ivory to a non-ivory product, or from melamine to a non-ivory substitute. I would consider melamine to ivory or vice versa to be pretty equal.

I am sure I missed some stuff. My take only. Others may have a starkly different opinion.

 

[zeeder]

1 - Original cue in original condition
2 - Original cue in fair condition (not necessarily needing a refinish, but not unblemished.
3 - Original cue but refinished without repair by the original cuemaker

Just out of curiosity, why would a cue lose value if refinished by the original maker?

 

[cuenut]

Just out of curiosity, why would a cue lose value if refinished by the original maker?

Again, speaking of a vintage cue, one refinished would not be worth the same as one in original condition. Kinda like a vintage car. Repainted by original manufacturer not worth as much as untouched. Example would be, again my opinion only, a very early Gina or Tad in original condition would be worth more to ME (maybe only me, but just stating my preference) than one refinished by Ernie or Tad if I had them both in front of me at the same time. Might just be a personal thing.

 

[classiccues]

As the title says I want the opinions of high end collectors or dealers of Hall of Fame caliper cues.
I have a high end Frank Paradise with a lot of inlay in it in for repair. It was missing a mother of pearl inlay and the butt plate was cracked. I replaced the inlay and pearl butt plate.
Here is the decision that needs to be made now.
The butt has almost 1/8" wobble at the joint and the cue has the original cortland wrap on it. I could get it pretty straight by removing the wrap cutting the cue and putting it back together. It would most likely lose the original wrap and would no longer be original construction. So the question as a collector would you rather have the original wrap and the warp or have a non original wrap and a straight butt? Which devalues it the most?

From a collector standpoint, you would want the all original (or as much as possible) condition. Now if you were to play with the cue, you might want it straight. Would it devalue the cue? Slightly.

But I can tell you this, pretty sells and pretty displays better. This might not be the right frame of mind, but they restore cars, right? Restored cars get MORE than original, 50%-75%'s. You find an original 71 hemi cuda in 25-40% condition, in order for it to have ANY real value, you restore it.

There is a threshhold that you cross, and it should be up to the collector to make that choice. Its hard on an item that has a value of 4500/5000. Since the cue is not even close to 50-60%, as it sounds, IMHO the right fix can only add value, not diminish it.

JV

 

[cueman]

Replacing the dot does not require a refinish. I could refinish it, but probably will leave the finish original. I have many cues in my collection with butts that have a wobble. As a collector I have always wanted original over straight, especially the original wrap. But I wanted to see what others think. I also think on a Paradise with the threaded on non glued ferrule to replace it would devalue the cue significantly.
So Joe,
I know you have dealt with more old cues that most anyone else on here. Would you leave it warped or straighten it?
Would you go for a total restoration? New wrap, finish, polish brass joint?

 

[paulybatz]

Ya...

Agreed, already done, keep going!
Some can find same wrap material too!

Chris,

Since the inlay and butt plate have been done already, I would say go ahead and rehandle the cue to get it straight. That's a pretty big warp as you describe. It's also possible that the wrap can be saved by carefully removing, washing and reinstalling, if it's not degraded too much. I would also suggest this....on the replaced inlay and butt plate, hope that the material is correct and if it's a notched diamond, the slot sizes in the new diamond match the other ones in the cue. Those older notched diamonds have much shorter slots, so it may be necessary to cut your own inlays to match. Steve Klein is doing a wonderful job with this on his new old school 'recreations'. I've seen some old Palmers and such where inlays have been replaced with newer, "stock" slotted diamonds with deep notches, and for me, that ruins an old cue just about as much as anything else that could be done to it. Best of luck with your resto work....hope we can see it here when it's done.

Hope this helps.
Sean

 

[cueman]

Pictures moved to top post.

 

[cueman]

If someone wants to resize the above pictures feel free to do so.
As you can see it is a pretty rare cue. The acrylic sleeve has some really nice work in it.

 

[tonyboy59]

Since you had the other things done to it..I say fix it and be done with it.

Good Luck!

 

[cueman]

The cue is in good shape other than the warp. So now that you have seen pictures of the cue what do you guys think?

 

[nick serdula]

Ask yourself

Is it starting to fall apart. If so reconditioning the Cue is an easier arguement even to collectors. In the long run it may save more damage than devalueing of refinishing and repairing may constitute.
Value is highest untouched almost every time. Nothing to hide.
Nick

 

[cueman]

Is it starting to fall apart. If so reconditioning the Cue is an easier arguement even to collectors. In the long run it may save more damage than devalueing of refinishing and repairing may constitute.
Value is highest untouched almost every time. Nothing to hide.
Nick

No it is in good shape. Frank's butt plate design is ready to crack at any hard slam into the floor. It plays solid and even has the removeable ferrule still original. This cue has sat in it's case for 40 years. It warped sitting in the case. The guy just moved into a place that has tables in the club house and pulled it out to start playing again. The name inside the cue is his name. Now he is considering selling it and having me build him a lower end cue. It is not forsale yet, but he is willing to consider offers. PM offer me if interested.

 

[cueman]

Any other collectors have thoughts on what to advise him to do after seeing the new pictures at the top of the thread?

 

[ibuycues]

Cueman,

You have already received some very insightful and valuable input from other posters regarding your question about this cue, but to just add a couple of my thoughts:

I strongly prefer, and recommend to keep a cue 100% original if at all possible. I like to see the cue and the "road it has taken" as I hold it or play a rack with it. I like to know that the cue is in the original condition from "the hand of the Master", the original cuemaker. Including the assembly, spray, wrap, etc. In every way. After all, it was the Master that made the cue valuable in the first place. I like to know that he did the wrap, the spray, etc.

Call it a Survivor.

Having said this, what if I found today in a junkyard a multimillion dollar Duesenberg that could be worth tons and enjoyed by thousands but as it sits is really not much more than a pile of junk. Would I restore the car to a semblance of originality and beauty? Of course. I would rather have the restored car in my garage than a rusted out "parts car". My choice. Do I modify the value when I restore something? Maybe, maybe not. Some collectors would prefer untouched, others a "restored to original".

Do art experts restore/repair early art works if the need arises? Of course.

Have I ever restored an early cue? Of course.

So it does become subjective, on some level, as to whether a particular cue should be restored.

To fully answer the root of your question, the cue and pictures for which you raise the question sure make the cue look pretty good as it is. I would surely want to hold a cue like that one before I would ever dare to give a recommendation, but I can assure you that the cue is nowhere near the "pile of junk" Duesenberg I mentioned earlier, and I would think long and hard before I did a little (if anything) to it......hope this helps.

By the way........Great Cue!!!!!

Will Prout

 

[cueman]

Thanks for all the input through posts and PMs. The customer decided to stop where we were and live with the warp. The wrap was in pretty good shape, so he said if he ever has to have it rewrapped he will have it cut and straightened then. He plans to use this cue as his player. I played a little with it and it played good and solid. He is like I am about my old Gold Crown table. I know I could replace it with a Diamond, but I have had it for 33 years and it will probably be my table til I die. He has had the Paradise since the 60's and feels the same way about it. He is no longer considering selling it.

 

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

I KNOW I'M "LATE TO THE PARTY", BUT AN 1/8" WARP MAKES A CUE "UNBUYABLE" IMO.

I KNOW IF I ROLLED A BUTT AND IT FLOPPED THAT BAD, I'D LAUGH, PICK THE CUE UP, AND HAND IT BACK TO THE GUY TRYING TO SELL IT.

A LITTLE ROLL IS ONE THING, THEN I'D SAY LEAVE IT ALONE, BUT AN 1/8" IS WAY TOO MUCH MOVEMENT FOR A POOL CUE.

OLD, ORIGINAL WITH SLIGHT MOVEMENT, IS ALRIGHT, BUT I'D RATHER HAVE RESTORED AND STRAIGHT, OVER CROOKED AS $SHIT.

Marcus

P.S. IMO, RESTORED IS MORE VALUABLE THAN CROOKED.