Question on Double Hit foul? Everyone is a physicist now?

[buckshotshoey]

What I've shown is very obviously not a simultaneous hit.

True. But I dont think the cue ball would react the way it is drawn. First, it would have to be a draw shot. If it hit the 8 first, the cue ball would be moving to the right with back spin. Then when contacting the 1, would come down table, not toward the right side pocket.

I could be wrong, but I will set up your shot when I get off of work this afternoon to prove or disprove my theory.

 

[David in FL]

True. But I dont think the cue ball would react the way it is drawn. First, it would have to be a draw shot. If it hit the 8 first, the cue ball would be moving to the right with back spin. Then when contacting the 1, would come down table, not toward the right side pocket.

I could be wrong, but I will set up your shot when I get off of work this afternoon to prove or disprove my theory.

It will naturally come off on the tangent line of both balls. In this case it’s clear that it hit the eight ball first, coming off to the right. Then it will initially come off on the tangent line from where it struck the nine ball. Spin will affect how/if it changes direction following that, but initially it will come off on the tangent line.

Bob’s point is that since the cue ball ended up to the right, the only way it could’ve done that is by striking the 8 Ball first.

 

[hang-the-9]

I get you can speed it up but can you make it go faster then the OB ?

Does not seem likely, only time I can think it would happen is on a thinner hit off the ball, so the object ball does not have much speed. If you hit it with an almost full shot, the cueball would lose too much energy for even follow to pick up enough speed.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Well my point is, I don’t think it’s good pool etiquette to call fouls like this. Call an observer to come watch the shot. Best practice is just to ask someone to come over and watch the shot if you suspect your opponent is going to foul.

Gambling between two players is completely different than an organized tournament. In a gambling situation between two players, you are not likely to be able to get a neutral observer to want to get involved as a referee.

I surely wouldn’t want to even as a room owner / manager / tournament director. In any kind of tournament, it would fall on the tournament director to judge the shot, but only if he is called to by one of the two players.

 

[eastcoast_chris]

This is about the only way you can get the cue ball to go faster than the object ball without a double hit (or jumping mostly over it);

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Don't the rules now state you have to clearly see someone be a double hit for it to be a foul?

No. So far as I know the BCA/WPA rules have never been that way.

 

[Bob Jewett]

This is about the only way you can get the cue ball to go faster than the object ball without a double hit (or jumping mostly over it); ...

With a frozen cue ball, it's pretty easy to get the cue ball to go faster than the object ball. You can do it with a level stick, a nearly straight shot, and follow. The balls will start at nearly the same speed, the OB will slow down as it acquires follow and the cue ball will not slow down as it already has follow. If you shoot straight at the ball, it is possible to hit the OB a second time as the cue ball catches up to it.

This is not a double hit foul because the cue ball is frozen to the object ball and the rules explicitly allow shooting towards the OB. (And, high speed video has shown there is only one tip-to-ball contact.)

 

[eg9327]

A similar thing happened to me recently in a mom-referreed match. Some young punk insisted I double hit. I said no, I had not. He said he knew he could not force a decision, but he knew I was a cheater, making loud noises. Sharking me, I suppose. Long and short is that when your opponent is about to make a shot that you think is suspect you have every right to ask a third party to watch. If you don't then the outcome is on YOU. I've played for 60 years. I know how to avoid a double kiss and I know which shots to just avoid. I can't possibly count the number of times I've picked up the cue ball after a shot where I fouled (unseen) and handed it to my opponent.

 

[jasonlaus]

As an example...have you ever seen a jump ball attempt but the cue ball does not get high enough to get over the blocking balls. The cue ball tops the blocking ball and the cue ball then goes faster the the blocking ball. This the same action. I hope this helps.

Yes and when you miss the object ball completely the CB goes faster than the OB. Wtf are you even talking about???

 

[Island Drive]

Playing a game for money with a friend yesterday. I was left in a safety. Cue was 3” from object ball. Made an amazing shot to pocket the ball and get position. My opponent who was sitting in his chair 8’ away at an angle jumps up and says “that’s a double hit! The cue ball was rolling faster than the object ball!” So he didn’t actually see a double hit, he saw what he believed was the evidence of a double hit based on ball reaction. Now, this isn’t the first time of course that I’ve heard this. People judge a double hit based on the ball reaction. Personally I think this is wrong and bad for the game. I think there are too many pool room professors who are too fast to call fouls without actually seeing a foul. There are a lot of factors that effect cue ball speed. Generally I never call this kind of foul, just not worth it to provoke the argument. Ultimately I lost that game but won the set. But, still always been a pet peeve of mine.

Any opinions or explanations of calling this foul based on cue reaction?

Yes they do, especially professional refs and players that understand ball actions/reactions.
Ball reactions are a tell, big time in most all cases.
Shovel shot/push shot is a term to describe a shot such as this, with 3'' between obj. ball and Cue ball and shooting straight into the obj ball.

 

[xcorner]

You can hear a double hit better than see it.

 

[Island Drive]

A similar thing happened to me recently in a mom-referreed match. Some young punk insisted I double hit. I said no, I had not. He said he knew he could not force a decision, but he knew I was a cheater, making loud noises. Sharking me, I suppose. Long and short is that when your opponent is about to make a shot that you think is suspect you have every right to ask a third party to watch. If you don't then the outcome is on YOU. I've played for 60 years. I know how to avoid a double kiss and I know which shots to just avoid. I can't possibly count the number of times I've picked up the cue ball after a shot where I fouled (unseen) and handed it to my opponent.

But they even take it further, they act out just because your wanting a ref or someone to watch, they say your sharking em.

I was at the Big Tyme event this past yr, and well to make it simple after this old man beat on this steriod man dressed to the twelves, he called me names for two days, followed me around, even into the bathroom and on and on and on........................

These are sadly....................................Typical actions you will find in bar table environments in todays world.
I've been out and about for over a yr now, and have been threatened, called names been treated more rudely than all my prior years from, 1963 to later 1990's.
Life is no longer, someone is right or wrong, it's I'm right and your wrong because that's my choice.
The third element of life has been borne.
Politicizing your ego when your wrong/just because.
The big lie is front and center in this 21st century.

 

[DynoDan]

Yes they do, especially professional refs and players that understand ball actions/reactions.
Ball reactions are a tell, big time in most all cases.
Shovel shot/push shot is a term to describe a shot such as this, with 3'' between obj. ball and Cue ball and shooting straight into the obj ball.

So, the ball actions indicate to you that a double hit occurred. Your opponent disagrees. Only the shooter knows for sure (seemingly). If he is inexperienced (or unconscious), are you going to make it an issue? YOU are the referee, but (IMO) part of that responsibility is deciding between ignorance or deception (not an easy call). In ’close call’ situations, the shooter typically gets the ‘benefit-of-the-doubt’. Continued contact/play with this opponent will eventually reveal the difference.
I avoid shots that usually lead to similar issues, since I really don’t want to face the inevitable complications (dishonest opponent, or test of my own integrity). Repeated flagrant instances are definitely a clue though (to unscrew & leave).

 

[Island Drive]

YES.................ball actions DO speak loudly to a pro player or pro referee.

But if your not over the shot with a ref or camera, and an inexperienced player says it's a good hit/then.......


...................you CREATED the Problem, by not halting the shot, and NOT having someone of knowledge watch the shot execution.

Many amateurs don't understand ball collisions/movement. They have probably done this before and no bad call was implemented.

With amateurs, these type of incidents occur ALL THE TIME.

 

[Timkrieger]

A similar thing happened to me recently in a mom-referreed match. Some young punk insisted I double hit. I said no, I had not. He said he knew he could not force a decision, but he knew I was a cheater, making loud noises. Sharking me, I suppose. Long and short is that when your opponent is about to make a shot that you think is suspect you have every right to ask a third party to watch. If you don't then the outcome is on YOU. I've played for 60 years. I know how to avoid a double kiss and I know which shots to just avoid. I can't possibly count the number of times I've picked up the cue ball after a shot where I fouled (unseen) and handed it to my opponent.

I agree that’s what you Gotta do and most the time your opponent would not argue with you either way if you don’t see it or have someone else watch it when you have an opportunity.

 

[trob]

My apa 8ball team tapes any shot that may result in a foul.

As to the OP's situation, the opponent is wrong if he was given a chance to watch the hit at the table and stayed in his chair. If he has called a double hit from the chair before, you need to control the situation

tell me why I should play apa anymore without telling me why… good lord its just pool leagues lol

 

[straightline]

Rarely, when it matters, I will point out the parameters and zones in as logical a manner as possible. If the results are as predicted, no bad calls.

 

[Timkrieger]

But they even take it further, they act out just because your wanting a ref or someone to watch, they say your sharking em.

I was at the Big Tyme event this past yr, and well to make it simple after this old man beat on this steriod man dressed to the twelves, he called me names for two days, followed me around, even into the bathroom and on and on and on........................

These are sadly....................................Typical actions you will find in bar table environments in todays world.
I've been out and about for over a yr now, and have been threatened, called names been treated more rudely than all my prior years from, 1963 to later 1990's.
Life is no longer, someone is right or wrong, it's I'm right and your wrong because that's my choice.
The third element of life has been borne.
Politicizing your ego when your wrong/just because.
The big lie is front and center in this 21st century.

Yeah that’s the thing, even if I see what I believe to be a foul if my opponent in good faith doesn’t call it on himself, I’m going to have pool etiquette and not make an argument not make a big deal out of it. Normally the set won’t come down to one shot. What I have a problem with is a guy that doesn’t really know, but he jumps up because he’s “heard that if this then that,—physics, so now he’s ‘heard’ that’s supposed to be a foul” Half the science I hear in the pool hall regarding ball movement is people talking out of their ass! But, they are pool players, —tall tells and bad science is part of the game! . To me the key is just having some good pool etiquette, be the first to admit if you had a bad hit, keeps it fun.

 

[maha]

you cant always hear a foul. so its up to you or your opponent to stop the action and explain whats going to happen and come to an understanding.
to just shoot a shot that could be contested and not waiting just starts the ball rolling for a confrontation.

if you are close and plan on hitting it kind of full expect to get a double hit called. as most times it will be unless your stroke is obvious.