Ok I've been playing pretty steadily for several months now and can make most shots consistently if I aim center on the cue ball. My problem is with english on the cusball. If I aim with english it seems that I always miss the shot opposite the side that I'm aiming with english on the cueball. example: right side english on cueball I miss badly left of the pocket, so I usually compensate by hitting the object ball fatter than I would if I was aiming center on the cueball. Sometimes it works, but it gets very tedious after I've been playing for a while. My question is... is this normal or is there another avenue that I should look...advise is appreciated
Question on hitting with english
- Thread starter sjason597
- Start date
As you have noticed, any spin you put on the cueball will impart the opposite spin on the object ball. So, yes, you will need to compensate for the english when you are shooting, especially if you are using a lot of english. You might try using a little less english or even using only high and low english for a while. Have fun and play around with various shots and various degrees of english. I think you will find that you can shoot a lot of shots using no left or right english and still get good position. When I play snooker I use very little side spin. The tables are so tight I always seem to throw the ball out of the pocket. Hope this helps you out.
The learning process of how to aim with sidespin is very complicated to explain, it is something you must learn naturally, and it comes by getting used to your cue. When I put sidespin, instead of thinking of deflection or throw, I just automatically know how to aim and compensate, and I usually make the ball if I'm in stroke.
sjason597 said:
sjason,
OK, here it is. I'm not a world-beater, but if someone had explained this to me 35 years ago I would be giving Efren the 7. If you want to master English (and you MUST if you want to be a top player), then you have to practice extensively until it becomes natural. My practice routine below is how I learned, takes 3-6 months. The only type of English I use is parallel English (with some exceptions I won't go into here) - where the cue is always parallel to the intended line of travel of the cue ball.
Set up an object ball about 2 feet from a corner pocket. Set up the cue ball about 2 feet away from the object ball, so that you have a cut shot. Now shoot the shot 5 times at a slow to medium speed with a small amount of inside English, and 5 times with outside English. Then shoot 5 times with a hard hit with inside, and 5 hard hits with outside. Do this at about a 20 degree cut angle, then a 45 degree cut angle, then a 65 degree cut angle. Do these shots every day for 2-3 months and you will be tremendously improved.
What you will find is that when you aim the cue ball, you will then move your body and cue an inch or so to the right or left so that the cue is parallel to your initial setup. When you stroke the cue ball with right English, it will initially: squirt to the left, then curve to the right, then "throw" the object ball to the left. The harder you hit the cueball, the more it squirts, the less it curves, and the less it throws the object ball. The further you cue towards the edge of the cue ball, the more it squirts, the more it curves, and the more it throws. The softer you hit the cue ball, the less it squirts, the more it curves, and the more it throws the object ball. The fuller the cue ball contacts the object ball the more throw occurs; the thinner the cue ball cuts the object ball the less throw occurs.
Knowing these principles, you will gradually be able to adjust your aim to allow for these factors, and to allow for the deflection characteristics of your cue (cues DIFFER from one another).
For me, with a low deflection Predator cue, here is the way I end up aiming:
With mild and moderate inside English and a soft to medium hit, I aim to allow 1" of squirt (in other words, I aim using center ball along a path one inch to the left or right of the path I would normally use to pocket the ball, then additionally move a little to the left or right of the center of the cue ball to move the cue parallel to this new path) and hit just hard enough that the curve of the cueball does not occur. With very heavy inside English I allow for about 2" of squirt (a little more if I'm hitting it very hard).
With outside English, there is much less difficulty because the squirt and throw tend to cancel each other out, as long as you hit hard enough to avoid cue ball curve. At soft speeds, the throw of the object ball is much more pronounced. Therefore at any medium to firm speed, my aim when using outside English is EXACTLY THE SAME as with no English at all (in other words the cue is parallel to the path I would use with no English, just a little to the left or a little to the right) - no matter how far from the center of the cue ball I choose to cue. If I am going to hit the shot slow with outside, I allow for a fuller hit, because the throw of the object ball is very pronounced.
This system may be totally different for your cue, but at least you have some principles to work with to develop your system - it takes practice, its definitely a little complex and confusing, but its worth it when you want to amaze your friends.
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1. Don't try to use english if you are a beginner.
2. First learn center ball hits. (Sounds like you have done this.)
3. Then learn speed control. Learn to shoot the cue ball 1/2 table length (softly), 1 table length, 1 1/2 table, 2, 2 1/2, 3 (hard hit).
Then break all 15 balls and practice shooting balls so they stop just before dropping into the pocket. (You learn how very little speed is needed to pocket a ball - that more speed is required for a cut shot.)
4. Next learn follow (hit ball center high) and draw (hit ball center low). With follow, the cue ball will continue to move forward after hitting the object ball. With draw, the cue ball will come backwards after hitting the cue ball. These shots will vary with longer distances between the cue ball and object ball. Draw is easier with the cue ball one diamond away from the object ball - but very difficult if the object ball is at the other end of the table (changes with distance).
5. Learn english for short corner pocket shots only at first. If the object ball is near a corner pocket, you can be off on your aiming and still make the pocket.
What no one ever told me about shooting with english: Different cue sticks aim differently when shooting with english! When you shoot with english, the cue ball will not go where you are aiming! If you shoot english with an elevated cue rather than a level cue, the ball will go yet another direction! The further away the object ball is from the cue ball, the more "off" your aiming/shot will be!
So starting out by learning english with long shots, will be an exersize in frustration.
Depending on which cue you have (best to always use same cue), you need to aim differently when using english. Practice with object ball 1 ft. away from corner pocket and cue ball 1 ft. away from object ball. Try different cut angles. Shoot with left/right and center. Aim differently as needed to get object ball to shoot into the center of the pocket.
It is difficult enough to make balls with a center hit. It is more difficult to use english on short shots. It is very difficult to use english on long shots.
Shoot the cue ball at the far center diamond with center, then left, then right. Notice that the ball is hitting to the left/right of the center diamond when using left/right english. This is called cue ball deflection or squirt. The cue ball will be a little off with a short shot and quite a bit with a long shot. So best to first start learning english with short shots only. Note that you can do a lot with follow, draw, and speed control so far as leaving the cue ball where you want it.
6. Learn english for all shots. Practice by shooting all 15 balls in with left, then all 15 balls with right, then center.
2. First learn center ball hits. (Sounds like you have done this.)
3. Then learn speed control. Learn to shoot the cue ball 1/2 table length (softly), 1 table length, 1 1/2 table, 2, 2 1/2, 3 (hard hit).
Then break all 15 balls and practice shooting balls so they stop just before dropping into the pocket. (You learn how very little speed is needed to pocket a ball - that more speed is required for a cut shot.)
4. Next learn follow (hit ball center high) and draw (hit ball center low). With follow, the cue ball will continue to move forward after hitting the object ball. With draw, the cue ball will come backwards after hitting the cue ball. These shots will vary with longer distances between the cue ball and object ball. Draw is easier with the cue ball one diamond away from the object ball - but very difficult if the object ball is at the other end of the table (changes with distance).
5. Learn english for short corner pocket shots only at first. If the object ball is near a corner pocket, you can be off on your aiming and still make the pocket.
What no one ever told me about shooting with english: Different cue sticks aim differently when shooting with english! When you shoot with english, the cue ball will not go where you are aiming! If you shoot english with an elevated cue rather than a level cue, the ball will go yet another direction! The further away the object ball is from the cue ball, the more "off" your aiming/shot will be!
So starting out by learning english with long shots, will be an exersize in frustration.
Depending on which cue you have (best to always use same cue), you need to aim differently when using english. Practice with object ball 1 ft. away from corner pocket and cue ball 1 ft. away from object ball. Try different cut angles. Shoot with left/right and center. Aim differently as needed to get object ball to shoot into the center of the pocket.
It is difficult enough to make balls with a center hit. It is more difficult to use english on short shots. It is very difficult to use english on long shots.
Shoot the cue ball at the far center diamond with center, then left, then right. Notice that the ball is hitting to the left/right of the center diamond when using left/right english. This is called cue ball deflection or squirt. The cue ball will be a little off with a short shot and quite a bit with a long shot. So best to first start learning english with short shots only. Note that you can do a lot with follow, draw, and speed control so far as leaving the cue ball where you want it.
6. Learn english for all shots. Practice by shooting all 15 balls in with left, then all 15 balls with right, then center.
As others have said, it is going to take a lot of practice to learn to use side spin. To speed your practice, you should be aware of the three major things that happen on english shots that each can cause you to miss the shot:sjason597 said:
Squirt --- (sometimes incorrectly called deflection) the cue ball does not leave the tip along the expected line, but instead moves at an angle away from the side the tip hit the ball on. Left english will make the cue ball squirt to the right.
Swerve --- the cue ball with side spin will curve on its way to the object ball. This effect is opposite to the effect of squirt and can be larger than squirt.
Throw --- the surfaces of the balls are slightly sticky, and the spin on the cue ball can grab the object ball a little and drag it off-line. This effect may be larger or smaller than squirt or swerve.
There are lots of other details involved in using side spin -- the above are just the major points you have to include (preferably subconsciously) on all shots. There is a way to compensate for squirt called the aim-and-pivot method, but it works well on only a limited class of shots. It's also called backhand english.
whitewolf said:
WW,
You bring up an excellent point. I agree that most teachers would think that stepping into the shot, setting up, and never altering bridge or stance is ideal. I only do it my way because I learned English BEFORE I learned proper and ideal stroke principles. I set up for center ball (allowing for squirt and throw), then I lift my bridge hand and move my whole body "enbloc", the required distance to the left or right for the amount of English I want to apply (very small distance). The end result is hopefully the same as if I walked into the shot just a little to the left or right of the intended path of the cueball. I wish I had learned it your way, but I get such good results, I don't want to take the requisite time to re-learn it (I'm lazy as well as cheap).
F
Fred Agnir
Guest
Squirt and Swerve
My quick answer is you're missing due to swerve.
Without getting into the nutz of it, I break it down to one simple question:
Should this particular shot with the speed and distance that I'm going to shoot it require me to compensate for squirt, swerve, or neither.
In general the firmer shots and/or the shots where the cue is dead level (like stretched out shot that the cue stick isn't over a rail), then I compensate for squirt only (fatter for inside english, thinner for outside english).
If it's a softer shot or a long distance (distance between the cueball and object ball), I compensate for swerve only (thinner for inside english, fatter for outside english).
The "neither" choice is when the squirt and swerve cancel each other out to a degree that I can aim without compensating.
Fred
sjason597 said:
My quick answer is you're missing due to swerve.
Without getting into the nutz of it, I break it down to one simple question:
Should this particular shot with the speed and distance that I'm going to shoot it require me to compensate for squirt, swerve, or neither.
In general the firmer shots and/or the shots where the cue is dead level (like stretched out shot that the cue stick isn't over a rail), then I compensate for squirt only (fatter for inside english, thinner for outside english).
If it's a softer shot or a long distance (distance between the cueball and object ball), I compensate for swerve only (thinner for inside english, fatter for outside english).
The "neither" choice is when the squirt and swerve cancel each other out to a degree that I can aim without compensating.
Fred
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Fred Agnir said:
Nice post, Fred, and it reminds me of a shot I discussed with Mizerak over twenty years ago. I mentioned to him that I had a little trouble with the straight pool break shot below, which has to be hit with high speed inside english. I told him I often overcut the ball, and he explained that I wasn't compensating enough for the squirt.
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sjm said:
SJM,
If you are calling that a good break shot, then I am NEVER going to gamble with you (well, I guess as a degenerate gambler I'm going to have to take that back; but you are going to have to give me SERIOUS weight).
sjm said:
SJM,
Yes, I've been stuck with it many times. I have Steve Mizerak on an Accu-Stats videotape (Cleveland, I don't remember the opponent) making this break shot flawlessly. Quite a coincidence that that is the first place I ever saw this break shot played well and yield good results. I almost always go for it if I have a decent angle - results vary
.drivermaker
Banned
sjason597 said:
There's another avenue...backhand english or learning to tuck and roll. If I'm not mistaken, I think Bob Jewett is a strong advocate of both methods.
