Question: When were the current 10 Ball rules (WPA) written to be call shot?

[sfleinen]

Calling shots in 9 ball or 10 ball is anal as hell.

whitewolf:

Two things:

1. Your comment above is "Exhibit A" of how thoroughly poisoned people's mindsets can be (I'm talking about 10-ball here), just because "the balls are shot in rotation." It drips (in buckets) with the notion, "in 10-ball, you shoot the balls in rotation, right? Doesn't that automatically mean Texas Express rules?" Just because the game of 9-ball was modified over the years to be more "palatable" to TV (i.e. going from push-out rules to Texas Express), doesn't mean "all rotation games" are henceforth Texas Express. Rotation pool doesn't mean that Texas Express is bolted to its hip.

2. This thread is specifically about WPA's rules for 10-ball, not 9-ball. Your comment may be applicable to 9-ball (only), since 9-ball is, after all, married to Texas Express. 10-ball, on the other hand, is not -- this call-shot game was sifted from the ashes of time to address the issues with 9-ball. Every professional 10-ball match you'll see is played under these rules, and if you ask any touring pro, that's the way they like it. Playing 10-ball with Texas Express rules is actually an abomination of the game.

Folks that play rotation pool now have a choice of playing methodologies: call-shot (10-ball), or Texas Express (9-ball). Don't like call-shot? Then don't play 10-ball; play 9-ball instead. Choice is good!

-Sean

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

whitewolf:

Two things:

1. Your comment above is "Exhibit A" of how thoroughly poisoned people's mindsets can be (I'm talking about 10-ball here), just because "the balls are shot in rotation." It drips (in buckets) with the notion, "in 10-ball, you shoot the balls in rotation, right? Doesn't that automatically mean Texas Express rules?" Just because the game of 9-ball was modified over the years to be more "palatable" to TV (i.e. going from push-out rules to Texas Express), doesn't mean "all rotation games" are henceforth Texas Express. Rotation pool doesn't mean that Texas Express is bolted to its hip.

2. This thread is specifically about WPA's rules for 10-ball, not 9-ball. Your comment may be applicable to 9-ball (only), since 9-ball is, after all, married to Texas Express. 10-ball, on the other hand, is not -- this call-shot game was sifted from the ashes of time to address the issues with 9-ball. Every professional 10-ball match you'll see is played under these rules, and if you ask any touring pro, that's the way they like it. Playing 10-ball with Texas Express rules is actually an abomination of the game.

Folks that play rotation pool now have a choice of playing methodologies: call-shot (10-ball), or Texas Express (9-ball). Don't like call-shot? Then don't play 10-ball; play 9-ball instead. Choice is good!

-Sean

First off, I agree with you. I like most all pool games including 9 Ball and 10 Ball. As such I like the fact that they are distinctly different games rather than being the same game with the shape of the rack the only difference.

Actually Sean, the bolded part is really my question here as far as the SVB/Alex Challenge Match 3. The match WAS played TE rules even though it appears that 10 Ball was call shot before this match occurred in May of 2008. That's why I started this thread - to find out if anyone knew the back story of why this match was played TE rules rather than call shot (and the commentators said it was being played by international 10 Ball rules), unless it was because of rule changes made more recently than I thought.

 

[sfleinen]

First off, I agree with you. I like most all pool games including 9 Ball and 10 Ball. As such I like the fact that they are distinctly different games rather than being the same game with the shape of the rack the only difference.

Actually Sean, the bolded part is really my question here as far as the SVB/Alex Challenge Match 3. The match WAS played TE rules even though it appears that 10 Ball was call shot before this match occurred in May of 2008. That's why I started this thread - to find out if anyone knew the back story of why this math was played TE rules rather than call shot (and the commentators said it was being played by international 10 Ball rules), unless it was because of rule changes made more recently than I thought.

Dogs:

I think the timing of the Alex/SVB match was unfortunate. Right about at that time, 10-ball had been formally embraced by the WPA as the new champion's competition rotation game of choice. And at that time, folks were still playing 9-ball in their challenge matches. But with the message getting out that 10-ball was the new champion's rotation game, I think that folks started to play 10-ball, albeit incorrectly (they probably thought that 10-ball was "just 9-ball with one extra ball, and 10-ball on the break doesn't count" -- or something like that). But as some of the world 10-ball championships (or WPA-sanctioned 10-ball events) started to be held, the players were enlightened to the "proper" rules. At least that's pure conjecture on my part.

Summary: I think it was an unfortunate timing issue -- perhaps both Alex and SVB were misinformed to the rules, or the rules to the match (established by TAR?) were hard-set and given to them prior to play, and it was already too late to change them? (Perhaps Justin [JCIN] might be able to elaborate/clarify here.)

-Sean

 

[Pushout]

It takes a while for most rules, if they are for games not often played at the time, to catch up. I think most people thought 10 ball was just 9 ball with an extra ball when it started being played again in recent times. Personally, I think Texas Express 9 ball has been the cause of a lot of pool's woes in recent years. Too many people just don't know any other way to play. I've played Straight Pool with people who thought they got ball-in-hand-anywhere on a pocket scratch. I'm glad 10 ball is not Texas Express with another ball.

 

[Tbeaux]

That's why I started this thread - to find out if anyone knew the back story of why this math was played TE rules rather than call shot (and the commentators said it was being played by international 10 Ball rules), unless it was because of rule changes made more recently than I thought.

Maybe since it was a challenge match the players agreed on the rules to use and the commentators were just wrong.

As to whitewolf, over the past decade there have been experiments with other rotation type games that stuck to the TE rules, mostly shorter games, they didn't last. When 10 Ball got resurrected I figured it would be TE type rules and 10 Ball would died on the vine same as those others. I'm glad to see they decided to keep the game different.That's why it seems to be enjoying some success.

 

[Tbeaux]

Also regarding whitewolfs comment about call shot being anal in rotation.
I would tend to agree that most of the time it would be,however, rule 9.5 does say the shot must be called "unless it is obvious". I take this rule to mean that if say the 3 ball is the current object ball and it's in front of the corner pocket it's an obvious shot so no call necessary. If the player wants to be a show off or something and bank the 3 to another pocket though he'd need to call it.
Combos, caroms,etc , more complex shots would need calling. Seems resonable to me.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Sean, that's what I think, it was a timing thing, with the call shot rules on 10 Ball just coming into use around that time. What threw me was that the commentators stated the match was being played by international 10 Ball rules. Clearly to me that meant WPA rules which were call shot at that point in time.

BTW, I did PM Justin, actually a couple of days before I started this thread but I haven't heard back from him. I think the TAR guys are on the road or something.

Also regarding whitewolfs comment about call shot being anal in rotation.
I would tend to agree that most of the time it would be,however, rule 9.5 does say the shot must be called "unless it is obvious". I take this rule to mean that if say the 3 ball is the current object ball and it's in front of the corner pocket it's an obvious shot so no call necessary. If the player wants to be a show off or something and bank the 3 to another pocket though he'd need to call it.
Combos, caroms,etc , more complex shots would need calling. Seems resonable to me.

Agreed. Call shot in 10 Ball is no different than it is in straight pool or 8 Ball. Obvious shots need not be spelled out.

As to whitewolf, over the past decade there have been experiments with other rotation type games that stuck to the TE rules, mostly shorter games, they didn't last. When 10 Ball got resurrected I figured it would be TE type rules and 10 Ball would died on the vine same as those others. I'm glad to see they decided to keep the game different.That's why it seems to be enjoying some success.

I figured just the opposite. I always thought that if TE 10 Ball took root, 9 ball would be the game that would suffer because to a lot of people, especially the pros, 9 Ball clearly has a problem inherent with the diamond shaped rack. It seemed to me that with 10 Ball being a call shot game it actually saved 9 Ball rather than vice-versa. But it does concern me that if TE 10 Ball becomes the popular game (in spite of 10 Ball actually being a call shot game) then TE 10 Ball would become the game everyone associates with 10 Ball and real 10 Ball would become more or less a footnote in history. I don't want that to happen.

 

[whitewolf]

Also regarding whitewolfs comment about call shot being anal in rotation.
I would tend to agree that most of the time it would be,however, rule 9.5 does say the shot must be called "unless it is obvious". I take this rule to mean that if say the 3 ball is the current object ball and it's in front of the corner pocket it's an obvious shot so no call necessary. If the player wants to be a show off or something and bank the 3 to another pocket though he'd need to call it.
Combos, caroms,etc , more complex shots would need calling. Seems resonable to me.

That's a little bit better. I can live with that, however I still don't like calling the pockets except in straight pool, and I would go so far to say that straight pool should follow 10 ball's rules as far as calling goes. I think people have just fallen in love with Jacky Gleason saying "5 in the corner". Calling the 9 ball is ridiculous. I have seen so many pros forget to call the 9 ball - this is anal.