Questions about angles. Europe - Norway

Newton

Newton

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Friends, I need your opinion w.r.t a job I'm tasked to do.

I friend have a European Dynamic table with a - well - little to tight specification.
It's spec'ed to the Eurotour spec and even there some players
complained about the spitting of balls.

The table has a angle of 12´and is for sure a tight "spitting out balls" table.

Now the usual pub table is in the range of 14-15 degrees and I was just
wondering if any of you professionals in the US just change the rubber facing on the rail end to correct this ?

Since I'm over here, I'm not sure of the correct "wording" but I guess you
mean by "sub-rail extension" a wooden extension of the cussions
and by "facing" you mean the normal rubber "pads" on the end ?

Now, do you change the angle by keeping a fixed point in the pocket -
moving the outer end of the rail in to the pocket. Or the opposite ?

I have usually just kept the original angle so I have to say that this is a little
new territory for me....

Also, I had a idea of using leather on the inside of the slate (in the pockets)
pretty much like a snooker table. I'm not able to reproduce Glens (Real King Cobras) nice look
using the cloth so my idea was to staple the clothe in the corners/pockets - then glue
leather over the staples to protect the balls.

Any ideas, views ?

I'm as mentioned way way from many of you so we're for sure not in competition.
If you feel it's better to PM, feel free :-)

Regards
Kent
 
opening

Use think facing and belt sand the angle into the pocket..start big and dry fit then work down to ur liking
-
-
Rob.M..
 
Newton said:
Friends, I need your opinion w.r.t a job I'm tasked to do.

I friend have a European Dynamic table with a - well - little to tight specification.
It's spec'ed to the Eurotour spec and even there some players
complained about the spitting of balls.

The table has a angle of 12´and is for sure a tight "spitting out balls" table.

Now the usual pub table is in the range of 14-15 degrees and I was just
wondering if any of you professionals in the US just change the rubber facing on the rail end to correct this ?

Since I'm over here, I'm not sure of the correct "wording" but I guess you
mean by "sub-rail extension" a wooden extension of the cussions
and by "facing" you mean the normal rubber "pads" on the end ?

Now, do you change the angle by keeping a fixed point in the pocket -
moving the outer end of the rail in to the pocket. Or the opposite ?

I have usually just kept the original angle so I have to say that this is a little
new territory for me....

Also, I had a idea of using leather on the inside of the slate (in the pockets)
pretty much like a snooker table. I'm not able to reproduce Glens (Real King Cobras) nice look
using the cloth so my idea was to staple the clothe in the corners/pockets - then glue
leather over the staples to protect the balls.

Any ideas, views ?

I'm as mentioned way way from many of you so we're for sure not in competition.
If you feel it's better to PM, feel free :-)

Regards
Kent
Click to expand...

I need a better explanation of what you mean by 12 degree angles in order to comment:wink:
 
Thanks for all the replies.
Have been working in the cue shop last two days but I would be going down
to check the table next week.

Glen; I would get back with more info when I have manually checked the angles
and done a inspection :smile:

Maybe I'll shoot some pics for you as well.

Regards
Kent
 
pocket angles

I am guessing you mean 12 degrees included between the facings? This would be a 141 degree pocket facing in how the mechanics in the US typically measure them. This is a pretty nice angle for a player table. I hope this helps.
Rob
 
Things Take Time....

Sorry, I have not been able to get back to you until now.
I have attached a pic of the tables corner pocket and as you may see, it's
pretty tight.

I also made some drawings which I did mean to scan - but my scanner seems not to be supported on my Mac.

Anyway, I had to check what all these angles actually ment and I also had another
look on the table today.

As I understand this, the 141 degree angle is along the cushion and in to the pocket horizontally,
meaning the angle we see when we look from above
and down on the tables corner.

The 12-15 degree angle is as far as I understand the vertical angle on the
facing in side the pocket . This is not the angle - slate - facing but the facing
and down to the vertical 90 degree angle.

According to the manufacturer changing this angle would make the table
play better which I'm not sure is correct....

My idea of having this table to play better is to angle the pockets facing a little in,
i.e reducing the 140-141 degree angle. What do you experts think ?

A rail shot with a little speed is spitted out, which is a little to much for my buddy -
and I don't argue either. We're playing pool, not snooker...

Now if I should follow my idea of reducing the angle, I see the problem that
the cushion nose cant move closer together (the pocket opening would be very small).
So to reduce the angle have to shave off some of the facing side pointing
against the plastic pocket and leave the facing untouched at the cushion nose.
Have any one tested this ?

Also, does the vertical angle change the playability that much ?

Also, I plan to use real leather on the slates inside, glued over the cloth to protect
the slate and the balls. Any one tried this with success ?


Thanks for the comments.

Kent
 

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angle of faceing

from what i see , two balls hanging mid way in the jaw is what most
people want . check the angle of the cushion faceing where a ball hits
like going down rail . look at the edge of the cushion at top and look
at bottom it to should have an inward angle . or to say the bottom
should be shorter than top. hold a straight edge against top should have
1/8 - 3/16 difference at bottom . it could be a miss cut from factory.
hope this helps john107: anderson sc
 
john107 said:
from what i see , two balls hanging mid way in the jaw is what most
people want . check the angle of the cushion faceing where a ball hits
like going down rail . look at the edge of the cushion at top and look
at bottom it to should have an inward angle . or to say the bottom
should be shorter than top. hold a straight edge against top should have
1/8 - 3/16 difference at bottom . it could be a miss cut from factory.
hope this helps john107: anderson sc
Click to expand...

Hi Anderson,

Thanks for the reply.

You are actually saying the same as the factory "technician" which says that a
larger/steeper angle on the facings would increase the playability.
Is this because the increased angle creates a top english causing the balls
to spin in to the pocket ?
I'm not sure if I understand the physics in this :scratchhead:

Kent
 
stun effect

not so sure about the english spinning ball in to pocket.more of a stun effect .after the stun effect faceing acts as a deflector .
long story , short version. i like to do projects i set out to build a pool table
from scratch, came out ok but i ran in to that problem . ball hit faceing
and came back out on table.after inspection had to redo angle of faceing
that fixed that ball return problem. i am now working on fourth table
worked on it about three hrs. to day , worked on pocket width and angles.
i cut pocket width 41/2 out side, throat 4 1/4 shelf is 1 1/4 the first cut
on cushion i call a raw cut after raw cut i use a small dia grinder with a
2 inch 40 grit disc to clean up cut and put angle on edge. after install
of faceing will be 4 3/8 tip to tip of nose. on this web site go to columes.
look at the ratings of pockets. i think my pockets came out to be 14.79
not that i was looking for that number , just what it came out to be.
your table looks good . before i would cut different angle , new faceing
could very well fix problem. good to here back from you . take care
john107 : anderson sc
 
john107 said:
not so sure about the english spinning ball in to pocket.more of a stun effect .after the stun effect faceing acts as a deflector .
long story , short version. i like to do projects i set out to build a pool table
from scratch, came out ok but i ran in to that problem . ball hit faceing
and came back out on table.after inspection had to redo angle of faceing
that fixed that ball return problem. i am now working on fourth table
worked on it about three hrs. to day , worked on pocket width and angles.
i cut pocket width 41/2 out side, throat 4 1/4 shelf is 1 1/4 the first cut
on cushion i call a raw cut after raw cut i use a small dia grinder with a
2 inch 40 grit disc to clean up cut and put angle on edge. after install
of faceing will be 4 3/8 tip to tip of nose. on this web site go to columes.
look at the ratings of pockets. i think my pockets came out to be 14.79
not that i was looking for that number , just what it came out to be.
your table looks good . before i would cut different angle , new faceing
could very well fix problem. good to here back from you . take care
john107 : anderson sc
Click to expand...


Wow John,

Building a table, that must for sure give some tremendous experience...:)

I would try to angle the facing a little bit and see if this can fix it.

Thanks
 
Newton, the type of cushions used as well as facings can have a serious effect on balls being rejected from the pockets even if the angles are correct, so what kind of cushions are on this table and what kind of facings?

Glen
 
realkingcobra said:
Newton, the type of cushions used as well as facings can have a serious effect on balls being rejected from the pockets even if the angles are correct, so what kind of cushions are on this table and what kind of facings?

Glen
Click to expand...

Glen,

Good to hear from you.
Regarding the cushions ;
These are D.B.O. speedball professional rubber cushions but the profile is unknown.
My mate is checking with the factory to get the profile, but these cushions is
for me unknown.
The type of facing is also unknown, but I'll shoot some pics when the cloth
is off.

By the way, the cushions plays a little "unfair" when banking. The shot always
end up short and in general these are not good to play on at all.
The factory claims that this is related to how tight the rail cloth has been installed
which I personally doubt....
Any feelings about this ?

Regards
Kent
 
cloth tension

yes cloth tension can make a difference. any part of the table that a
ball hits effects how it plays. when i do rails pull only snug , only pull
with thumb and index finger as not to over tighten. try to keep tension
consistent , on all six rails.if you take rails off to look or work on faceing or angles, check tension on cloth.
i think you can fix it . if i could drive to your house
would be glad to help you. take care john107 :anderson sc
 
john107 said:
yes cloth tension can make a difference. any part of the table that a
ball hits effects how it plays. when i do rails pull only snug , only pull
with thumb and index finger as not to over tighten. try to keep tension
consistent , on all six rails.if you take rails off to look or work on faceing or angles, check tension on cloth.
i think you can fix it . if i could drive to your house
would be glad to help you. take care john107 :anderson sc
Click to expand...

Thank John for your reply.

May be I should book a ticket for you to come over here :)
Very cold however he he.

We started looking at the table yesterday. The facing was a whopping 6mm thick
where the new one is 3mm thick. Hopefully changing this would solve some of the
issues with the ball spitting.

The cloth is for sure tight on the rails so I would for sure do it looser.

Starting the main work tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

I would tighten the cloth in the pockets the normal way and I'll glue up black
leather to protect the slate. Most likely I would shoot some pics and possibly
post some up here :)

Kent
 
A good 12 hour workout....

Well, it's close to 2 years since last time I did a table so this took some time..

We had a debate if we should use the original 6mm facing and then increase
the vertical angle, or use the new 3mm facing and change the angle on the
wood..
The last option was chosen due to the fact that the owner wanted a larger
pocket so the old ones where taken of and new one installed after a slight increase
of angle. In lack of a digital angle meeter, we had to use a "analog" one which
was not to easy to get consistent readings from.

Pic1 show the original angle after the facing was removed - old glue still in place.

Pic2 show the new facing installed and new cloth ready to install. Note the trim strip (black)
which holds the cloth. This was out of plastic and I learned the hard way that
this had actually a fixed installation direction (I did not dismount the table).
The trim strip has a really small "lump" on one of the sides and this was supposed
to be facing from the rubber. If not the list pushed the cloth against a sharp
angle which could in worst case cause a cut in the cloth...

Pic3 shows side pocket with black leather installed to protect both the slate
and the balls. I'm not sure if this would hold over time, but the previous person
who installed the cloth did not use anything. Just cloth and staples in the pocket
which as far as I know is a big no no. If the leather fall off I would make one
of the classical paper boards covered with cloth to protect.

Pic4 shows the pockets final size. 6mm larger pocket is for sure much but it does
not cause the table to be a pain to play at. It's a training table used
to do drills and play some home matches, so my buddy was OK with the result.

Pic5 shows the biggest cock-up I have ever done :shocked2:... All the previous tables (8 tables) I
installed the rail cloth using a small hammer. Well, so I did on this one....
As you can see, the surface down to the cloth was a plastic surface which by
using a hammer and a blunt screwdriver (those which you could attach different front ends to)
has seriously damaged the rails edge to the cloth :o
After this mistake the whole job went in slow motion.
My buddy says "take it easy" but I would be looking for a new rail for him.
This really bugs me and would hount me for a long time.

May be I should have got that ticket for you John :frown:

Lesson learned.
K
 

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Newton said:
...
Pic5
As you can see, the surface down to the cloth was a plastic surface which by
using a hammer and a blunt screwdriver (those which you could attach different front ends to)
has seriously damaged the rails edge to the cloth :o
K
Click to expand...

Use a rubber mallet next time.
 
sounds like you are doing good. after seeing two balls hanging in jaw
i was thinking double shim you are right 3mm i think is standard, 6mm
is over size. if new cushions were installed before you got table angle
could be off . as you know cushions have to be cut for table.
be very carefull if you cut for angle leave top edge as it is.a miss cut
and you will be buying new cushions. take care john107 :anderson sc
 
newton :you will not believe what i think just happened i was sending
reply when i started still had pic. of table with green cloth with double
shims after sent reply table had changed. i was sure sent reply to wrong
place . let me know if you get mt two post. yes i see your rail. like dartman said rubber hammer and you can allso use a thin board to lay
on top of feather strip at the edge of rail as not to hit rail .don't worry
about it those kind of things can happen and do. that is mild to some of the things i have done. pockets looks good. i can tell that you know what you are doing . take care john107:anderson sc
 
john107 said:
newton :you will not believe what i think just happened i was sending
reply when i started still had pic. of table with green cloth with double
shims after sent reply table had changed. i was sure sent reply to wrong
place . let me know if you get mt two post. yes i see your rail. like dartman said rubber hammer and you can allso use a thin board to lay
on top of feather strip at the edge of rail as not to hit rail .don't worry
about it those kind of things can happen and do. that is mild to some of the things i have done. pockets looks good. i can tell that you know what you are doing . take care john107:anderson sc
Click to expand...

John,

I'm not sure what you mean, but the previous color on the table was more blue
(cant remember the orig.color name). The new on is Tournament blue and
I was a little skeptical at first look but when installed on this black table it looks good :-)

The cushions are the original but I did not pull as tight as I some times could do.
This was to check if the rail changed character w.r.t tightening and bounce -
which it seems like it has according to my buddy. I have not played that much
on it but it felt OK in my eyes.

When I have changed cushions I normally make a template in cardboard of
the original "top" of the corner pocket. I then angle a brand new knife blade
for a carpet knife and follow the vertical angle on the end of the rail and
aim after the line I draw after the template.

I have for sure learned the to double check the cushions top face before installing
the feather (trim strip). Actually, I would make my own custom tool for this,
because this has been the first and definitely the last :frown:

Thanks for the feedback John.

Kent - aka "Newton"
 
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