Quick Change Tool Post - Wedge, "German" or "Italian" style?

Newton

Newton

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have been looking at some types for a while and I'm not sure which
version is the one to go fore. Wedge, "German - V " type , "Italian" and so forth.

Is there any of you who has experience with any of these and in case can give some advice on pos/neg with either version?

Kent
 
JoeyInCali said:
I dunno but I heard Italian chick look better. :)
I use Phase II.
http://www.phase2plus.com/details.asp?pr=HOBBY_QUICK_CHANGE_TOOL_SETS&id=238
Click to expand...

He he he. I guess those chicks could work as well :grin:

In respect of the QCTP, how do you feel the accuracy are on the Wedge setup you have ?

On the lathe I'm using (not my own) we have a 4 axis rotational tool changer which works fine, all until you need to adjust the height of the tool. Then I need to add metal "wedges" under/over the tools which $ucks big time. Looking for a new one for this lathe which is the reason for scratching my head on this now.

Thank's for the link.

Kent
 
Newton said:
He he he. I guess those chicks could work as well :grin:

In respect of the QCTP, how do you feel the accuracy are on the Wedge setup you have ?

On the lathe I'm using (not my own) we have a 4 axis rotational tool changer which works fine, all until you need to adjust the height of the tool. Then I need to add metal "wedges" under/over the tools which $ucks big time. Looking for a new one for this lathe which is the reason for scratching my head on this now.

Thank's for the link.

Kent
Click to expand...
Kent, I don't know of any accuracy issues on my setup for what I do.
Once I lock down the bolt, the stopper and the nut, they pretty much stay dead on most of the time. The nut gets loose eventually but it's quick to adjust.
Fwiw, the Aloris clones like Phase II have almost but killed the KDK style toolposts here.
 
i switched from i think Phase 2(or another Aloris knockoff) to a KDK knockoff made by Loris.i bought it from an older guy who i guess makes them and the name he uses is Loris.

i guess the 4 way is convinient,but 1 way actually works fine for me and it for me it is easier and faster to operate,no resistance.it is also low profile and out of the way with out the bar sticking up.i also like the fact the the wedge is covered up when in use and stays clean.

i think there are pros and cons to each style but for me the KDK style is better.it was also only about $150 with 5 tool holders,which seems very reasonable.teh accuracy and repeatablilty is perfect.

i wouldn't mind trying the Aloris one day,if i hit the lottery,but i did not like the knockoff.
 
I have the Aloris knock-offs on three of my lathes. One is the piston type and another is the wedge type. The wedge type is supposed to be more accurate for repeatability but actually I've found little difference between the two. What I mean by repeatability is being able to use one tool in a holder for a cut, removing it from the tool post and later dropping it back onto the tool post and continuing with the cut with no adjustments. As far as tool height adjustment, both systems are exactly repeatable. As far as I'm concerned, a quick change tool post and a rear chuck are the biggest time savers in cue construction. I have around 30 tool holders in use holding everything from single point tooling to routers, dial indicators, boring bars, gun drills and even a pencil.

Dick
 
IMO , for Cue making (Wood) theres not a huge difference but it does vary on what your machining. Piston style has more flex in the lock down. It's basically 3 contact point system whereas a good quality wedge locks dowm on all possible pivots which leaves zero room for flex or movement. It's not going to show up working wood tho , metal (steel, SS , Etc) is a different story.
 
Thank you for the feedback, it is highly appreciated.

I have a man coming over to show me a some QCTP which I think is called "Multifix Suisse" and they look to be "German" type. I guess I find out tomorrow.

In my view it looks like the US-"Wedge" type might be better but this has no angle variations I guess? I have not seen any of these in "real life" so I'm not 100% sure on how they operate.

For our work (my job) it's mainly industrial plastics which is turned but metal would be added to the equation soon.

Kent
 
I have both

And agree with previous posters that there is little difference between them while working with wood. I think the wedge is more repeatable, and more solid while doing heavier cuts in metal. But this is all academic when cutting wood. Even the piston type makes my four way, and rocker style posts seem antiquated.
Has anyone tried to install the Aloris type, or, the miniature version of these that Harbor freight sells on a Hightower deluxe? The mini holders are not compatible with the Aloris style, but it borrows ideas in its design.
 
I have an Aloris AXA tool post, but buy additional tool holders from Shars tools. I find the quality and price better than some other brands that I've tried. I prefer the wedge over the piston, mostly because changing toolholders seems to be a little easier.
 
olsonsview said:
And agree with previous posters that there is little difference between them while working with wood. I think the wedge is more repeatable, and more solid while doing heavier cuts in metal. But this is all academic when cutting wood. Even the piston type makes my four way, and rocker style posts seem antiquated.
Has anyone tried to install the Aloris type, or, the miniature version of these that Harbor freight sells on a Hightower deluxe? The mini holders are not compatible with the Aloris style, but it borrows ideas in its design.
Click to expand...

I have one on a H/F set-up. It works OK for real light work. It doesn't take much force for the tool post to deflect away on them. When that happens, just take another pass.

Dick
 
dchristal said:
I have an Aloris AXA tool post, but buy additional tool holders from Shars tools. I find the quality and price better than some other brands that I've tried. I prefer the wedge over the piston, mostly because changing toolholders seems to be a little easier.
Click to expand...

The first one I purchased was for an Enco and I got a BXA piston type. I have been very happy with it for around 15 years now. The second one I bought was for a Jet and it is a BXA Wedge type. I had always heard that the wedge type had better repeatability and the extra cost is slight. I, actually, like the piston type better. I often have trouble sliding a tool holder into place and off again on the wedge type where as the piston type works very easily. I'm sure it just happens to be the one that I have but I've filed on the closer a few times trying to get it to fit better. I don't feel I need the better repeatability anyway as I never use one tool and change to another and then back to the first in any operations on a cue. When I do have to between set-ups I touch off again instead of relying on the numbers.

For what we do they both are great. I know others who don't use a quick change and just can't understand the reasoning behind it.

Dick
 
rhncue said:
The first one I purchased was for an Enco and I got a BXA piston type. I have been very happy with it for around 15 years now. The second one I bought was for a Jet and it is a BXA Wedge type. I had always heard that the wedge type had better repeatability and the extra cost is slight. I, actually, like the piston type better. I often have trouble sliding a tool holder into place and off again on the wedge type where as the piston type works very easily. I'm sure it just happens to be the one that I have but I've filed on the closer a few times trying to get it to fit better. Dick
Click to expand...

FWIW,

I purchased the piston type after obtaining the Radial Pin installation instructions YEARS ago. As a beginner machinist, I had no luck with repeatability. I should note that I also purchased the recommended Aloris Drill Chuck holder (NOT CHEAP!!!!).

When I explained to Phase II what whas going on, they turned me on to the wedge type as it "is far more accurate". Not so....

I followed the instructions from Paul C. to the T.

I realize that the Super Chuck on the Aloris holder might not be DNO repeatable- so when taking the reamer blank in and out- sweeping the blank would be understandable- but when leaving the reamer blank in the chuck and releasing the holder only- one would conceive that it should fall back into place- not so...

So, several hundred trials later, I have found that I STILL need to sweep the reamer in all directions everytime the holder is taken off and put back on- even without moving the cross-slide or carriage. :angry:

I have found too that different pressures on the lever can also change the location of the tool.

Short of buying the Aloris post, or sending the holder to Aloris for inspection- anyone have any suggestions for me?? (besides the "take a machining course" line- LOL!)

Dick- my wedge post causes the holders to stick often as well.

Moral of the story- buy Chinese, get Chinse I guess....
-Chris
 
Last edited:
Poulos Cues said:
FWIW,

I purchased the piston type after obtaining the Radial Pin installation instructions YEARS ago. As a beginner machinist, I had no luck with repeatability. I should note that I also purchased the recommended Aloris Drill Chuck holder (NOT CHEAP!!!!).

When I explained to Phase II what whas going on, they turned me on to the wedge type as it "is far more accurate". Not so....

I followed the instructions from Paul C. to the T.

I realize that the Super Chuck on the Aloris holder might not be DNO repeatable- so when taking the reamer blank in and out- sweeping the blank would be understandable- but when leaving the reamer blank in the chuck and releasing the holder only- one would conceive that it should fall back into place- not so...

So, several hundred trials later, I have found that I STILL need to sweep the reamer in all directions everytime the holder is taken off and put back on- even without moving the cross-slide or carriage. :angry:

I have found too that different pressures on the lever can also change the location of the tool.

Short of buying the Aloris post, or sending the holder to Aloris for inspection- anyone have any suggestions for me?? (besides the "take a machining course" line- LOL!)

Dick- my wedge post causes the holders to stick often as well.

Moral of the story- buy Chinese, get Chinse I guess....
-Chris
Click to expand...

Yes, I can see where you would need repeatability in the set up in your operation. I don't use a drill chuck on the tool post, myself. I seldom use a reamer and when I do I use the tail-stock chuck. I use a boring bar on the tool post when needing a bored hole true and that doesn't need to be perfectly aligned, just the correct height.

I can't see sending the holder to Aloris would be of any help as your problem certainly is not in the holder but in the tool post. When closing, apparently the bevel on the tool post and the holder are not exactly the same allowing the holder to shift or cant slightly when being tightened. Have you considered prayer?

Dick
 
Last edited:
rhncue said:
Yes, I can see where you would need repeatability in the set up in your operation. I don't use a drill chuck on the tool post, myself. I seldom use a reamer and when I do I use the tail-stock chuck. I use a boring bar on the tool post when needing a bored hole true and that doesn't need to be perfectly aligned, just the correct height.

I can't see sending the holder to Aloris would be of any help as your problem certainly is not in the holder but in the tool post. When closing, apparently the bevel on the tool post and the holder are not exactly the same allowing the holder to shift or cant slightly when being tightened. Have you considered prayer?

Dick
Click to expand...

As in to God?? :) ????? (pardon the innocence, or is Prayer a brand name?

As you may know, the method described is a propsed method of alignment for ease of center drilling, drilling, boring and then reaming (optional)- then tapping. In theory- more pricise?? a "fully adjustable tail stock" if you will?

Maybe the thought process is because most often tails stocks need to be shimmed as they can be high and/or low to the centerline. Then you have to align left and right...then you'd have to account for bed sway, swag, and levelness when moving the tail up and down the ways. With the multi positional tool post (3 axis if you will), in theory, the tool post method for pin installation could be far more superior... as you would be working in an even smaller area on the bed?

Nice chatting with you and sorry to highjack the tread Newton :o

I have experience with the Phase II and the Aloris only. Buy quality the first time... the extra $$ WILL save you the wasted time and aggrivation!!!!!!!!!!!

-Chris
 
Last edited:
Poulos Cues said:
Nice chatting with you and sorry to highjack the tread Newton :o
Click to expand...

No problem mate, I just enjoy the discussion and trying to pick up as much as possible so when I'm buying one for my self some time I know what to get.

I'm not sure what the "piston" version looks like but here is a pic of the version I would see tomorrow which I have interpreted to be the "German V" type / Multifix.

All feedback has been highly appreciated.

Kent
 

Attachments

  • Multifix A-2.JPG
    Multifix A-2.JPG
    20.5 KB · Views: 2,179
> On the 2 Sharp lathes at school,we have an Aloris CXA. We have a Dorian CXA on our Haas. Here are my thoughts.

No qualms with repeatability really,but damned if they aren't awful bulky. Maybe a smaller version is the answer.

The center-height adjustment works much better now that I used Loc-Tite on the set-screw that the adjustment nut and lock nut ride on,to lock it into the cartridge. The set screws were working loose if you tried to make minor adjustments to your center-height,even if you loosened the lock-nut first.

A small-bodied,long pointed live center is a MUST if you commonly thread small screws on a machine with a CXA toolpost. Tommy D.
 
Newton said:
I'm not sure what the "piston" version looks like but here is a pic of the version I would see tomorrow which I have interpreted to be the "German V" type / Multifix.
Kent
Click to expand...

Yeah, that can't be cheap :)

I've never used that style, but I like the way you can change the angle of the tool. On my off-shore CXA wedge type, to change the angle you have to get the big wrench on top and loosen the big nut, rotate, and try to tighten it down without it moving on you.
That cog system looks pretty nice.

Let us know what size tooling you can use on that one (1/2", 5/8" or 3/4") and aprox. $.
Looks like a nice unit.

Regards,
Frank
 
Jr's Farm said:
Yeah, that can't be cheap :)

I've never used that style, but I like the way you can change the angle of the tool. On my off-shore CXA wedge type, to change the angle you have to get the big wrench on top and loosen the big nut, rotate, and try to tighten it down without it moving on you.
That cog system looks pretty nice.

Let us know what size tooling you can use on that one (1/2", 5/8" or 3/4") and aprox. $.
Looks like a nice unit.

Regards,
Frank
Click to expand...

This place has them for 199.00 plus the tool holders.

http://www.shars.com/product_categories/view/413/Quick_Change_Tooling__Toolholders

Dick
 
here is a pic of mine.small and low profile with excellent accuracy and repeatability.also very easy to use,never tight and never gets wood chips in the wedge.the handle comes backwards and out of the way when locked.

IMG_0201.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top