Unfortunately, the term that Ace used is a term used in my area too. For the record, I don't use that term, and I don't encourage any racist behavior.
Racism
- Thread starter Fatboy
- Start date
did you read his post?
Walt,
There is nothing sillier than the PC BS that a word can not even be said in context to condemn it.
Hu
Walt,
There is nothing sillier than the PC BS that a word can not even be said in context to condemn it.
Hu
Walt Frazier said:
Please read again.Walt Frazier said:
Fatboy said:
I was really bothered by this post. How dare you admit to having a mullet.
BTW, I was thinking of this same subject the other day. I am sure racism occurs in all aspects of life, but it seems to occur much less in pool rooms, especially among true pool players.
42NateBaller said:
Yeah, I too have heard the same term used quite a few times when hustling bar box 8 ball at bars and such. I agree it is a tragedy and I don't even think that the unknowledgeable players are intentionally being racist with the remark but its unfortunate that it is used at all.
I feel quite good about my sport when I see for a fact, beyond all doubt, that the medium of the game has helped someone to take a small step toward acceptance of everyone. Oddly enough, I just saw this last night at a big money match where everyone turned out, and someone that I know had some private racist tendencies was won over by an individual of another race. I just sat back and felt very proud of the game, and the men...Tom
Speaking of BS and bias . . .
I am from the deep south, lived in south Louisiana most of my life. Until I was a young man I believed all of the drivel about racism being the worst in the south, nope make that South!
After traveling and working in other areas including through the great mixing pot western states and into liberal southern California, I can honestly say that the deep south is the least racist place I have ever been. Not only are other areas more racist towards blacks, although it is often a closet racism while their publicly spoken words are all so PC, they are racist against another 57 varieties of people that we would never consider different than us here in the South.
To all of those in the South and everywhere else perpetrating the myth that the South is a hotbed of racism, here is a great large BULLSHIT!
Hope I made my point.
Hu
I am from the deep south, lived in south Louisiana most of my life. Until I was a young man I believed all of the drivel about racism being the worst in the south, nope make that South!
After traveling and working in other areas including through the great mixing pot western states and into liberal southern California, I can honestly say that the deep south is the least racist place I have ever been. Not only are other areas more racist towards blacks, although it is often a closet racism while their publicly spoken words are all so PC, they are racist against another 57 varieties of people that we would never consider different than us here in the South.
To all of those in the South and everywhere else perpetrating the myth that the South is a hotbed of racism, here is a great large BULLSHIT!
Hope I made my point.
Hu
Interesting posts. I don't think pool is different from other sports in this respect. When people get together to play, biases and racist attitudes tend to recede, especially in an environment where racism is regarded as immoral, politically incorrect, etc. Unfortunately, the fact that such attitudes are kept in check doesn't mean they are eroded or diminished. Having lived in the south for many years, I routinely heard the term "nigger pool" used in venues where there were no AFAMs present, and I'm sorry to say that I actually played in an APA league where the teams made it clear that they would drop out when it became known that a team from "black bar" was on the schedule for the next session--the new team was dropped. That's just one incident--unfortunately, I could cite many more.
Don't want to dampen the spirit of the original post--all in all, it can never hurt when people interact with others aginst whom they have ingrained biases. But my experience is that racists simply keep their views in check in the pool hall.
P.S.: I was writing my comment when Hu posted. I agree that we shouldn't single out the south for racist attitudes. Saw some of the same stuff when I lived in the Northeast.
Don't want to dampen the spirit of the original post--all in all, it can never hurt when people interact with others aginst whom they have ingrained biases. But my experience is that racists simply keep their views in check in the pool hall.
P.S.: I was writing my comment when Hu posted. I agree that we shouldn't single out the south for racist attitudes. Saw some of the same stuff when I lived in the Northeast.
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Having read acedotcom's post, I must agree that there is nothing offensive about it, IMHO, and that he was just wondering about the history of a phrase that he has heard where he plays. Although the term has never been used in my presence, I do know that it is used. Buddy Hall was doing commentary on a match between Willie Munson and Mike Lebron and he recalled that he and Willie have spent a little time on the road together. He went on to say that Willie told him a 'joke' that in years past, when he would play against white guys and put a safety on them, they would call it 'nigger pool'. When white guys finally learned how to do it, said Willie, they changed the game to one-foul.
The tape is in the Accu-stats catalog, and IIRC, it was a Senior tournament in Willie's homeroom in Michigan. I had the pleasure of meeting Willie at a tournament in 2001, and I am proud to see that he is a veritable legend in that part of the country and was treated with such deference and high regard by so many of the people who attended that event.
On the general topic of racism and pool, I have always been proud to say that poolrooms, in my experience, are the most egalitarian and racism-free places in America (and I have interacted from all types, from card-carrying Nazis to extensive involvement in "liberal" and "progressive" organizations). In a poolroom your race, social background, etc. are rendered irrelevant--your ability to play and your conduct are what matter. Please note, however, that I'm talking about poolrooms, not just bars in which pool may be played--those can be an entirely different story! There have been a few places where I just turned around and left before I got halfway across the room, and there have been one or two places where I wished that I had!
The tape is in the Accu-stats catalog, and IIRC, it was a Senior tournament in Willie's homeroom in Michigan. I had the pleasure of meeting Willie at a tournament in 2001, and I am proud to see that he is a veritable legend in that part of the country and was treated with such deference and high regard by so many of the people who attended that event.
On the general topic of racism and pool, I have always been proud to say that poolrooms, in my experience, are the most egalitarian and racism-free places in America (and I have interacted from all types, from card-carrying Nazis to extensive involvement in "liberal" and "progressive" organizations). In a poolroom your race, social background, etc. are rendered irrelevant--your ability to play and your conduct are what matter. Please note, however, that I'm talking about poolrooms, not just bars in which pool may be played--those can be an entirely different story! There have been a few places where I just turned around and left before I got halfway across the room, and there have been one or two places where I wished that I had!
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The poolroom is a funny place. If you gave it a lot of thought, you'd probably realize that people can be just as insensitive there as any other place. The underlying difference is that the words are interpreted differently.
Speaking specifically of racism, on more then one occasion, I've heard racial slurs used, the fundamental difference between what I typically hear in a poolroom versus what I might hear on the street is that it's usually in a sentence constructed like, "Wow that [racial slur here] shoots lights out!" I mean, how does anyone respond to something like that? It shows ignorance but not hatred.
The bottom line is, I've gone to poolrooms in neighborhoods where it would be assumed I would not belong and found myself quite comfortable. There is a bond we share and for the most part, we usually leave our politics at the door. Part of it, I guess, has to do with a bit of charm I sometimes have but usually, if I'm that stranger, people are more intrigued by where I've been and who I've played rather then where my grandparents were born.
Speaking specifically of racism, on more then one occasion, I've heard racial slurs used, the fundamental difference between what I typically hear in a poolroom versus what I might hear on the street is that it's usually in a sentence constructed like, "Wow that [racial slur here] shoots lights out!" I mean, how does anyone respond to something like that? It shows ignorance but not hatred.
The bottom line is, I've gone to poolrooms in neighborhoods where it would be assumed I would not belong and found myself quite comfortable. There is a bond we share and for the most part, we usually leave our politics at the door. Part of it, I guess, has to do with a bit of charm I sometimes have but usually, if I'm that stranger, people are more intrigued by where I've been and who I've played rather then where my grandparents were born.
Yes things are better. (somewhat) but thankfully we will never go back to the days when the great James Evans was not allowed to enter pro pool tournaments and If I'm not mistaken Cicero Murphy had a few tournament doors closed to him as well. I think it's safe to say those days are gone and done with.
Its not like pool players are naturally less biased than other people, and I certainly don't believe that people just leave their preconceptions at the door when they enter a pool hall. I believe that what it is, in the final analysis, is that the balls speak for themselves. If a player's game is beautiful and logical (and jam up!) it just is. It is self-evident, it transcends all barriers of race and culture and it displays, for all to see, the intelligence, creativity and will of it's owner. In that sense, pool is like music in that its a universal language which allows human beings to reach out across the chasms that so divide them in the outside world.
The other thing, IMHO, that bonds pool players of all stripes is the fact that it is such a distinct sub-culture. As we all know, the network of good players is a relatively small and inbred one with linkages that extend across the globe. When you recognize another player, you have no choice but to acknowledge the talent, work and dedication by which he achieved this status. If you're in the subculture, you compete and gamble with and against, lend and borrow from, and trade information with other members of that fraternity, and a bond inevitably develops. If you're in, you're in and that's all there is to it!
Pool is a sterling example of how meaningful interaction across racial and cultural lines can lead to greater tolerance and understanding. If nothing else, it can be stated without fear of meaningful contradiction that pool players across the globe share mutual respect and acknowledgement of each others' humanity. Its a lot more than can be said for most aspects of society, and its not a bad place to start.
The other thing, IMHO, that bonds pool players of all stripes is the fact that it is such a distinct sub-culture. As we all know, the network of good players is a relatively small and inbred one with linkages that extend across the globe. When you recognize another player, you have no choice but to acknowledge the talent, work and dedication by which he achieved this status. If you're in the subculture, you compete and gamble with and against, lend and borrow from, and trade information with other members of that fraternity, and a bond inevitably develops. If you're in, you're in and that's all there is to it!
Pool is a sterling example of how meaningful interaction across racial and cultural lines can lead to greater tolerance and understanding. If nothing else, it can be stated without fear of meaningful contradiction that pool players across the globe share mutual respect and acknowledgement of each others' humanity. Its a lot more than can be said for most aspects of society, and its not a bad place to start.
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JAM said:Your response is a typical example of why pool continues to be stuck in the mud in the United States. Your summarization stinks to high heaven.
At times, including during the Civil War, billiard results received wider coverage than war news. Players were so renowned that cigarette cards were issued featuring them.
That was then, and look at it now!
JAM
Take it easy JAM. you shouldn't get angry to what I said and what really was the perception of the general public about pool. What I said is not of my belief, but what was the belief of most people. it was considered as a vice and a bad one. we didn't grew in the same community JAM, but from where I had been, Pool was considered EVIL. and that makes me the DEVIL !
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very accurate post
Even when pool halls were technically segregated or after they were first made open to all but still segregated by tradition, a strong player was welcome, regardless of race, color, or creed. He received a lot of respect from his peers also, it wasn't a grudging entrance the player was truly welcomed as an equal.
Of course this did make it hard to fly under the radar. Walk into a pool hall with one black person in it and you knew he wasn't the soft action!
Hu
Even when pool halls were technically segregated or after they were first made open to all but still segregated by tradition, a strong player was welcome, regardless of race, color, or creed. He received a lot of respect from his peers also, it wasn't a grudging entrance the player was truly welcomed as an equal.
Of course this did make it hard to fly under the radar. Walk into a pool hall with one black person in it and you knew he wasn't the soft action!
Hu
VIProfessor said:
Here's a thread I posted a while back, where another player exercised his right to free speech in a pretty negative way: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=17893&highlight=doomcue+scott+frost
Being Asian and growing up in rural NC, I've been the victim of racism a few times (the usual stuff like chink and zipperhead). However, I never experienced racism as much as when I had long hair. A lot people thought I was Latino when I had long hair, and I was called spic and beaner plenty of times (ignorance on top of ignorance - I'm Asian, dammit!). I grew my hair out to donate it, and now my head is shaved, so those insults have pretty much stopped, but that's still a pretty sad commentary. NC has a large and rapidly growing Hispanic community, and it seems racism, which has become largely quiet (for lack of a better word) toward blacks, it's openly rampant against Hispanics.
-djb <-- surprised a lot of people by saying, "F*ck you, asshole" in perfect English
Being Asian and growing up in rural NC, I've been the victim of racism a few times (the usual stuff like chink and zipperhead). However, I never experienced racism as much as when I had long hair. A lot people thought I was Latino when I had long hair, and I was called spic and beaner plenty of times (ignorance on top of ignorance - I'm Asian, dammit!). I grew my hair out to donate it, and now my head is shaved, so those insults have pretty much stopped, but that's still a pretty sad commentary. NC has a large and rapidly growing Hispanic community, and it seems racism, which has become largely quiet (for lack of a better word) toward blacks, it's openly rampant against Hispanics.
-djb <-- surprised a lot of people by saying, "F*ck you, asshole" in perfect English
NYC cue dude
Banned
Mr Lucky knows all about racism in the sport of of pool, as his uncle was cisero murphy. I had grown up hearing, but never seeing (too young) about how great lassiter was. My grandfather would tell me stories about him, and as i got older, read any little thing i could find about him. It wasn't until years later that i learned that he had refused to play cisero when he had finally made it to the finals of the world straight pool tournament, because of his color.
I'm glad that you fatboy, and others, have been spared the experience of "pool hall" racism, but just because you have been lucky, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I am in NY, have lived in jersey and cali and florida, and have travelled all over the US. Unfortunately, I have seen racism, first hand, even at my regular room at Amsterdam Billiards in NYC. i've been there to hear the vile words, and have witnessed the hateful looks of bigots.
The truth is, that racism exists in the world, and that pool is a small microcosm in that world. Granted, todays players come in all shapes and sizes, including the world class elite, but don't be naive to think that in everyones minds, only pure thoughts are born. You'd be wrong.
rg
I'm glad that you fatboy, and others, have been spared the experience of "pool hall" racism, but just because you have been lucky, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I am in NY, have lived in jersey and cali and florida, and have travelled all over the US. Unfortunately, I have seen racism, first hand, even at my regular room at Amsterdam Billiards in NYC. i've been there to hear the vile words, and have witnessed the hateful looks of bigots.
The truth is, that racism exists in the world, and that pool is a small microcosm in that world. Granted, todays players come in all shapes and sizes, including the world class elite, but don't be naive to think that in everyones minds, only pure thoughts are born. You'd be wrong.
rg
Walt Frazier
Banned
No Class at all
What is with you people?..You all are throwing the N word around like it's some kind of a gaffe or something..I'm not trying to stir up anything because I do believe the initial post by Fatboy was well intentioned..but this thread has quickly digressed..
Since we're throwing around the N word like it's no big deal..and screw the respect for our black posters here..I would like to know,is this an anything goes forum? and is there a list of words that you can-not use?
For the administrator.
nola22 said:
What is with you people?..You all are throwing the N word around like it's some kind of a gaffe or something..I'm not trying to stir up anything because I do believe the initial post by Fatboy was well intentioned..but this thread has quickly digressed..
Since we're throwing around the N word like it's no big deal..and screw the respect for our black posters here..I would like to know,is this an anything goes forum? and is there a list of words that you can-not use?
For the administrator.
Walt Frazier said:
From what I've seen so far, everyone has been using the N word solely to reference what someone else has said. However, you have a point, and I for one, will use the initial when referring to someone's use of the term.
To Randy, I'm certainly not saying that there's no racism in pool halls. I'm just saying that there is a degree of mutual respect and acceptance which is far beyond what you can expect in most other areas of American life. I, for one, would be hard pressed to think of any all-white environments that I have encountered (and there have been many), that were more comfortable and open than the pool halls I have been in.
