Radial shafts not fitting well on non-predator cues

[surffisher2a]

I heard that Jacoby makes some of the Predator cue butts, so i would assume they use the same radial pin. I forget where i read that.

The Predator Valour line of cues is a collaboration between the two cue makers. I was going to buy one of them (SL2 specifically) but I wanted the soft leather wrap instead of linen or bare wood.

 

[Nyquil]

wow, this thread hits home for me right now.....

I fell in love with a jacoby cue and bought it from seyberts on black Friday. I wanted to pair it with a revo radial shaft that I got a good deal on elsewhere (brand new).

So my cue was delivered to me yesterday and I was really disappointed that the revo wouldn't even screw onto the butt, it was really tight and could only get it about 1/4" away from the butt. I also noticed the joint diameters are different. the Jacoby is .847 and the revo is .840.

I contacted seyberts and advised them of the issue and they asked me to send the Revo shaft and the butt of the cue to them and they will modify the threads on the revo to make it fit. I don't think they can do anything about the joint diameters mismatching, but I can live with that since i like the cue so much. I am assuming all they have to do is run a slightly larger tap down the Revo to make it fit.

I was kind of surprised that it didn't fit since jacoby and predator state they use true Uni-Loc pins and that they have recently collaborated on some cues together.

Anyways, I sent my cue / shaft back to seyberts today and they are going to make it right, I can't say enough good about seyberts customer service, they were extremely quick to respond and are only asking that I pay shipping for them to modify the shaft to work with the cue.

That's a bummer. Maybe they only use the uni loc radial on the predator panthera's. I will say on my roadline radial the revo shaft fits extremely snug. I have to torque the last two threads. Definitely not coming loose during play. Good luck on getting the threads sorted.

 

[StrokinLumber]

Uniloc R's are the real deal. There are non-Uni radial pins. Not all are exactly alike.

I recently had the pleasure of speaking with multiple retailers and well-known cue makers on this subject. According to them, the radial standard had been established a number of years before the uni-lock radial patent had been obtained. According to those that I spoke to, during the patent process, Predator had intentionally made their pin size smaller than what was standard at the time. They were able to argue some level of unique utility or design because of this and now have their patent. Essentially, the threads are the correct distance from one another, but the pin itself is (very slightly) larger when it isn't the "Official Unilock Radial" joint pin.

Predator Revo shaft will not fit Jacoby butt with radial pin, unless specifically ordered.
Works the other way round though.

This is true and I would really have your shaft tapped by the seller (if I were to do it again, I probably would've sent mine back). If you're an unfortunate soul (like me) who purchased a Revo and doesn't want to send it back or pay to have it tapped locally... you're in luck! In speaking with both Jacoby and PoolDawg about my recent order of a Revo shaft I was assured of a technique to fit the Predator Radial on a Jacoby cue. Jacoby seats their radials in phenolic resin and assured me that the following process is safe. I don't know how safe this process would be on a butt that's pin goes straight into the wood; the torque may end up being too much for it. Be careful and don't break your stuff.

Caution: DO NOT use any sort of vise-grips or mechanical gripping mechanism to complete the following process. If you're getting frustrated with it, take a break and let your arms rest. You can break/ crack your shaft if you try to mechanically grip it. This process is physically demanding as you're compressing the tapped wooden bore inside of the shaft. My forearms were SORE after doing this for 40 minutes or so. After you have finished the process, you may need to pack your gripping material in your case (just to be sure that you won't be out and about with a stuck joint). This will become less likely over time as the joint gets used. I've had mine for 3 days now, and while it's still tight, I can now get the shaft off without needing some kind of rubber or leather to assist with gripping it.

• Get something to adequately grip the shaft where it meets the joint (these things are slick right out of the box).
  • I wrapped the pleather sleeve that came with my Revo shaft around it right where the shaft meets the joint.
    • rubber mat grippers for rugs or shelves would also be good options.
  • Disposable rubber gloves can be helpful but are prone to tearing.
  • Clean thick rubber kitchen gloves would probably be a great option, but I never tried them.
• Get something to safely lubricate the joint.
  • I was instructed that carnauba wax or vaseline were both acceptable products.
    • I would personally err on the side of the more natural, non-petroleum-based products. With that being said, make sure whatever you use will not turn rancid inside of the shaft.
• Lubricate the joint pin, and slowly thread it on until you get some resistance and then back off; less is really more here.
  • you will have to do this many times over as the radial pin is designed to be a high friction thread anyway.
  • If you feel the need to reapply (you probably will need to) apply more of it to the end of the pin than the base of the threads.
    • The end of the pin is really doing most of the compression, which means more friction.

There you have it. It's relatively safe, and I was assured that if something had gone wrong with the shaft the retailer would take responsibility. If I didn't receive that kind of guarantee I wouldn't have done it, and neither should you.

 

[JohnnyOzone]

I own several revo radial shafts and love them even if the hit is nowhere near as satisfying as wood (I play better with carbon fiber and trust me I need all the help I can get)

The revo radial shaft fits perfectly and very tight on the predator roadline LE radial pin cue I own. I can play with this cue extensively and the shaft never comes loose.

The Chris Nitti cue with a radial pin however will screw together but after playing comes loose with the same shaft. I believe they are using the same exact radial pin. In my mind this affects the hit perhaps and is slightly annoying.

What is the solution?

I have a Nitti and a REVO and have never had a problem. Maybe see if Predator will swap shafts for a new one?

 

[surffisher2a]

I recently had the pleasure of speaking with multiple retailers and well-known cue makers on this subject. According to them, the radial standard had been established a number of years before the uni-lock radial patent had been obtained. According to those that I spoke to, during the patent process, Predator had intentionally made their pin size smaller than what was standard at the time. They were able to argue some level of unique utility or design because of this and now have their patent. Essentially, the threads are the correct distance from one another, but the pin itself is (very slightly) larger when it isn't the "Official Unilock Radial" joint pin.



This is true and I would really have your shaft tapped by the seller (if I were to do it again, I probably would've sent mine back). If you're an unfortunate soul (like me) who purchased a Revo and doesn't want to send it back or pay to have it tapped locally... you're in luck! In speaking with both Jacoby and PoolDawg about my recent order of a Revo shaft I was assured of a technique to fit the Predator Radial on a Jacoby cue. Jacoby seats their radials in phenolic resin and assured me that the following process is safe. I don't know how safe this process would be on a butt that's pin goes straight into the wood; the torque may end up being too much for it. Be careful and don't break your stuff.

Caution: DO NOT use any sort of vise-grips or mechanical gripping mechanism to complete the following process. If you're getting frustrated with it, take a break and let your arms rest. You can break/ crack your shaft if you try to mechanically grip it. This process is physically demanding as you're compressing the tapped wooden bore inside of the shaft. My forearms were SORE after doing this for 40 minutes or so. After you have finished the process, you may need to pack your gripping material in your case (just to be sure that you won't be out and about with a stuck joint). This will become less likely over time as the joint gets used. I've had mine for 3 days now, and while it's still tight, I can now get the shaft off without needing some kind of rubber or leather to assist with gripping it.

• Get something to adequately grip the shaft where it meets the joint (these things are slick right out of the box).
  • I wrapped the pleather sleeve that came with my Revo shaft around it right where the shaft meets the joint.
    • rubber mat grippers for rugs or shelves would also be good options.
  • Disposable rubber gloves can be helpful but are prone to tearing.
  • Clean thick rubber kitchen gloves would probably be a great option, but I never tried them.
• Get something to safely lubricate the joint.
  • I was instructed that carnauba wax or vaseline were both acceptable products.
    • I would personally err on the side of the more natural, non-petroleum-based products. With that being said, make sure whatever you use will not turn rancid inside of the shaft.
• Lubricate the joint pin, and slowly thread it on until you get some resistance and then back off; less is really more here.
  • you will have to do this many times over as the radial pin is designed to be a high friction thread anyway.
  • If you feel the need to reapply (you probably will need to) apply more of it to the end of the pin than the base of the threads.
    • The end of the pin is really doing most of the compression, which means more friction.

There you have it. It's relatively safe, and I was assured that if something had gone wrong with the shaft the retailer would take responsibility. If I didn't receive that kind of guarantee I wouldn't have done it, and neither should you.

When I sent my Revo back to Seyberts to get it to fit my jacoby butt, this is exactly what they did. When I sent it, I was 100% convinced they would just run a tap through it and be done with it. When I talked to them on the phone, they told me they just added some shaft wax to the pin and took it slow screwing in and removing the shaft a little bit at a time. They warned me I might need to do the same due to difference in climate when the cue got back to me.

 

[kling&allen]

I recently had the pleasure of speaking with multiple retailers and well-known cue makers on this subject. According to them, the radial standard had been established a number of years before the uni-lock radial patent had been obtained. According to those that I spoke to, during the patent process, Predator had intentionally made their pin size smaller than what was standard at the time. They were able to argue some level of unique utility or design because of this and now have their patent. Essentially, the threads are the correct distance from one another, but the pin itself is (very slightly) larger when it isn't the "Official Unilock Radial" joint pin.

You can find more background on the history of the radial pin here:

UNI-LOC joint - the real story

While I could not agree more about the quality and the soundness of the UNI-LOC joint let me take this opportunity to set the record straight about the creation of the UNI-LOC joint . . . IF "you" know anything at all about United States Patents...

forums.azbilliards.com

I've never seen the patent on the radial pin, but here's the now-expired patent on uni-loc:

US5890966A - Quick coupling cue stick - Google Patents

A multiple piece cue stick includes multiple stick portions which are coupled together by a sleeve bushing secured to one stick portion and a coupling rod secured to another stick portion. The coupling rod has a elongate shaft which fits within a smooth bore of the sleeve bushing and is coupled...

patents.google.com

"Radial" is still trademarked by Predator, which means that unauthorized pin sellers can sell the same exact pin (because the patent is expired) but can't call it "radial." The variation we see in radial pin dimensions seems to be caused by poor manufacturing / laziness as opposed to legal concerns. Atlas sells authorized "radial" pins.

 

[StrokinLumber]

"Radial" is still trademarked by Predator, which means that unauthorized pin sellers can sell the same exact pin (because the patent is expired) but can't call it "radial." The variation we see in radial pin dimensions seems to be caused by poor manufacturing / laziness as opposed to legal concerns. Atlas sells authorized "radial" pins.

This still doesn't seem to make sense. I mean, Jacoby makes very well-made cues and they have a knack for attention to detail. They even partner with Predator for limited runs! How is it that Jacoby would end up with these "inferior" pins? I know that there are some brands out there that use pins with bad thread spacing/ just plain terrible manufacturing, but it seems strange that even good cue makers would have this problem.

 

[kling&allen]

This still doesn't seem to make sense. I mean, Jacoby makes very well-made cues and they have a knack for attention to detail. They even partner with Predator for limited runs! How is it that Jacoby would end up with these "inferior" pins? I know that there are some brands out there that use pins with bad thread spacing/ just plain terrible manufacturing, but it seems strange that even good cue makers would have this problem.

I suspect one of the companies made a design choice to deviate from the standard design for fit purposes with their own matching butts / shafts. But there's no legal reason that would cause anyone to change the mechanical designs of those pins.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

... the radial pin is designed to be a high friction thread anyway.

Funny stuff. High friction thread is a piss poor design.

Definitely not coming loose during play. Good luck on getting the threads sorted.

Definitely diminishing what a thread should be designed to do.

I really don't understand why people have this impression that a tight fitting, high friction screw is a sign of quality. It is a sign of not understanding how screws are supposed to work.

 

[StrokinLumber]

Funny stuff. High friction thread is a piss poor design.



Definitely diminishing what a thread should be designed to do.

I really don't understand why people have this impression that a tight fitting, high friction screw is a sign of quality. It is a sign of not understanding how screws are supposed to work.

The problems that the radial joint is trying to solve are; to provide the feel of single-piece construction, reduce the unscrewing of the joint during play, and reduce/eliminate any unwanted buzzing that may result from the aforementioned loosening. Is it possible to have too much friction? Absolutely!

Could this be achieved by using a 3/8x10 pin? Using a coarser thread like the 3/8x10, you can; achieve quicker assembly/disassembly, decrease the likelihood of a seized joint, put more rotational force on the system without risking damage to thinner cut threads, and prevent cross-threading—all good things.

In my opinion, the radial pin slightly beats the 3/8x10 when it comes to both the feel of the hit and preventing the joint from loosening; I believe this is due to having rounded/convex thread roots that increase the surface area of the thread. I also believe that the radial's wear and tear on the internal bore within the shaft is diminished compared to the 3/8x10 due to its gentler thread geometry.

What I think is a bad design is the Uniloc Quick release. While it's fancy and can go together and come apart quite quickly, it's also machined with such tight tolerances that a very minute amount of real-world debris can lock the joint shut.

Edit: I think that my preference for the radial (over the 38x10) is due to its ability to provide the desired hit feel even if the joint isn't perfectly secured because of the increase in static friction. Again, this preference is slight. More than anything, I just have a strong distaste for joints with brass inserts due to my personal experiences with them coming undone during play.

 

[TrxR]

The problems that the radial joint is trying to solve are; to provide the feel of single-piece construction, reduce the unscrewing of the joint during play, and reduce/eliminate any unwanted buzzing that may result from the aforementioned loosening. Is it possible to have too much friction? Absolutely!

Could this be achieved by using a 3/8x10 pin? Using a coarser thread like the 3/8x10, you can; achieve quicker assembly/disassembly, decrease the likelihood of a seized joint, put more rotational force on the system without risking damage to thinner cut threads, and prevent cross-threading—all good things.

In my opinion, the radial pin slightly beats the 3/8x10 when it comes to both the feel of the hit and preventing the joint from loosening; I believe this is due to having rounded/convex thread roots that increase the surface area of the thread. I also believe that the radial's wear and tear on the internal bore within the shaft is diminished compared to the 3/8x10 due to its gentler thread geometry.

What I think is a bad design is the Uniloc Quick release. While it's fancy and can go together and come apart quite quickly, it's also machined with such tight tolerances that a very minute amount of real-world debris can lock the joint shut.

Edit: I think that my preference for the radial (over the 38x10) is due to its ability to provide the desired hit feel even if the joint isn't perfectly secured because of the increase in static friction. Again, this preference is slight. More than anything, I just have a strong distaste for joints with brass inserts due to my personal experiences with them coming undone during play.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but why would a joint with a brass insert come loose during play?

My Viking quick release has a brass insert and it has never come loose during play.

 

[StrokinLumber]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but why would a joint with a brass insert come loose during play?

My Vicking quick release has a brass insert and it has never come loose during play.

I may just have bad luck with them then.

 

[HawaiianEye]

The problems that the radial joint is trying to solve are; to provide the feel of single-piece construction, reduce the unscrewing of the joint during play, and reduce/eliminate any unwanted buzzing that may result from the aforementioned loosening. Is it possible to have too much friction? Absolutely!

Could this be achieved by using a 3/8x10 pin? Using a coarser thread like the 3/8x10, you can; achieve quicker assembly/disassembly, decrease the likelihood of a seized joint, put more rotational force on the system without risking damage to thinner cut threads, and prevent cross-threading—all good things.

In my opinion, the radial pin slightly beats the 3/8x10 when it comes to both the feel of the hit and preventing the joint from loosening; I believe this is due to having rounded/convex thread roots that increase the surface area of the thread. I also believe that the radial's wear and tear on the internal bore within the shaft is diminished compared to the 3/8x10 due to its gentler thread geometry.

What I think is a bad design is the Uniloc Quick release. While it's fancy and can go together and come apart quite quickly, it's also machined with such tight tolerances that a very minute amount of real-world debris can lock the joint shut.

Edit: I think that my preference for the radial (over the 38x10) is due to its ability to provide the desired hit feel even if the joint isn't perfectly secured because of the increase in static friction. Again, this preference is slight. More than anything, I just have a strong distaste for joints with brass inserts due to my personal experiences with them coming undone during play.

I have had, and have, numerous cues with brass joint inserts and have NEVER had one that had a problem of coming loose.

 

[Nyquil]

Funny stuff. High friction thread is a piss poor design.



Definitely diminishing what a thread should be designed to do.

I really don't understand why people have this impression that a tight fitting, high friction screw is a sign of quality. It is a sign of not understanding how screws are supposed to work.

I have had two different predator radial pin butts with two different revo radial shafts. One fits really snug the other one just glided on so to speak. There does some seem to be some tolerance stacking with these predators from my sample size of two lol.

 

[muskyed]

None of my 3 Schon's have ever come loose, and that is with Schon shafts, or the Jacoby shafts that I use. Cannot say the same for our McDermott cues with their 3/8" x 10 pin as you have to occasionally tighten them. Now, my DZ with its 3/8" x 10 modified pin, locks up like a vault, really like that joint. Also demoed my friends Jacoby with a radial pin for about 5 games, and that went together extremely solid, similar to my DZ, and had a similar fantastic hit.

 

[StrokinLumber]

I have had, and have, numerous cues with brass joint inserts and have NEVER had one that had a problem of coming loose.

None of my 3 Schon's have ever come loose, and that is with Schon shafts, or the Jacoby shafts that I use. Cannot say the same for our McDermott cues with their 3/8" x 10 pin as you have to occasionally tighten them. Now, my DZ with its 3/8" x 10 modified pin, locks up like a vault, really like that joint. Also demoed my friends Jacoby with a radial pin for about 5 games, and that went together extremely solid, similar to my DZ, and had a similar fantastic hit.

Like I said, maybe I just had bad luck with them.

 

[It skid]

I have had two different predator radial pin butts with two different revo radial shafts. One fits really snug the other one just glided on so to speak. There does some seem to be some tolerance stacking with these predators from my sample size of two lol.

Yup, had the same encounter

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Typical AZ thread. One vague know it all surrounded by people who think feelings are facts.

This topic is much more involved than just “if it’s drilled right, it should work”. The “radial” pin is a ball screw. They’ve been around for decades. Nothing new, except to the pool world. Joint pins have major and minor diameters. This will affect the fit of the joint. They aren’t a particularly good joint screw. But to each their own.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Typical AZ thread. One vague know it all surrounded by people who think feelings are facts.

This topic is much more involved than just “if it’s drilled right, it should work”. The “radial” pin is a ball screw. They’ve been around for decades. Nothing new, except to the pool world. Joint pins have major and minor diameters. This will affect the fit of the joint. They aren’t a particularly good joint screw. But to each their own.

There are no balls involved in the radial screw, thus it is not a ballscrew. It was inspired by the shape of a ballscrew.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

There are no balls involved in the radial screw, thus it is not a ballscrew. It was inspired by the shape of a ballscrew.

Thanks for confirming the contents of my post.