Rail recalibration.

perfectpocketz said:
Trent instead of always trying to do your best at knocking me with your little hints of yours....why don't you just tell the truth....you asked me to do the rail work and not put cushions on...so you could copy my work.....I turned you down.....I didn't want your work then....I don't want your work now.
What you fail to understand....no sets of rails are a like.....so trying to paint by numbers is never going to work.
Go about your own business.....and stay out of mine....I do no business with you....as well as you with me.
Your the one that started this.....but you play the nice guy act and think everything's fine.......maybe everyone should read some of your smart ass comments you have made to members in the pass...then they may see just who you really are.
You have table work you need done....that has nothing to do with me.....so stop your childest comments.....and grow up BOY.
other than posting your inventory 100s of times....try answering some questions on here...that's what Talk To A Mechanic is for.....not turning it into Craig's List.
Since we're advertising....Ken Hash at Classicbilliards.net refinished tables blow your's away.
As long as you keep being me into your posts....the more I'm going to keep informing people......and if they get your tables and don't like the play.....they can always look back and say I warned them.
I got in these threads and tried given Jerimy props......but you had to come on here and try and knock me.....my work speaks for it's self.....you have to play the game......understand the game....before you can ever understand how cushions and tables are supposed to play correctly.
Which of those do you fall under?
If you want to keep on and on....keep posting your little digs about me.....but it's going to get ugly for sure.
Go about your business.....as I will of mine.
Mark Gregory
Click to expand...

Jesus, Mark, is everything about you? I usually keep my mouth shut...this shit is actually why I rarely post on here any more. Come on though....what would it take to remove the emotion and ego from these forums? Trent said nothing about you in that post. Are you that defensive, or that insecure? I don't see any reason for you to be from the level of work I've seen come out of your shop. Maybe it's something else, but that doesn't belong here.

What's your purpose on here, Mark? Are you here to showcase work so that potential customers may become more educated? All your bashing a personal attacks don't do much educating. Have you watched too many political commercials? Is that how you hope to gain business is by bashing everyone else? You don't appear to have any interest in helping other mechanics on here. (Maybe helping them understand you're better) I just don't get it, dude. You're one of the most talented mechanics out there, but all you do is stoop to a lower level and talk shit about everyone else and take on this "I know something you don't know" grade school attitude. I've hesitated to even post this because I feel like I'm stooping to your level, but I'm just sick of this forum being like this.

Look, we're all adults here. Most of us either professionals performing a service or someone looking for a professional to perform a service. We as a group don't act very professional at all. Mark, I don't know if you have person issue with me...I can't imagine what I've ever done to cross you, yet I've watched you bash me for being one of Glen's "minions", talk shit about almost every mechanic but you, and now back-door bash me by insinuating that Trent's tables will play like shit. If you have issue with how I do work, don't be so passive aggressive. Give me a call. My number is easy to find. I know I'm not the best out there, but I take pride in learning every day. I'd love some POSITIVE input from you on how to improve the work I do.

Remember your roots, Mark. I don't know your background or where you learned what you know, but I know for sure you didn't always have the knowledge and experience you have now. I think you have zero respect for those who are now where you used to be...working our ass off trying to better our trade and keep putting out work that makes our customers happy and keeps our kids fed. Guys like us need a mentor more than a bully.
 
I think this is so true.

I couldn't agree more with this, even though it was apologized for:

"Mark, you seem to do excellent quality work. I don't think anyone would question that.. Your prices may be high, but high quality work is not cheap.. Again, I don't think anyone would question that. It is unfortunate, though, that you contribute useful information to this forum, only when you are degrading another mechanic.

In this case, you gave Trent a hard time about promoting his work, for showing off work that he is proud of. You promote your own work, in every single post you make.. Anytime you respond to a question, it is to insist that the person should have you do the work, but you are so reluctant to actually offer any information.

I'll admit, I'm a fan of your work.. But, your personality sucks. Your huge ego reflects in your incredibly arrogant posts. You are solely responsible for the largest number of mechanics leaving this forum, than anyone else in the last several years. Sure, Glen chased off a couple.. But most of that was do to general personality conflicts. And besides, Glen was a key contributor to the forum. You, on the other hand, have been a bully on this forum, and have simply run off a number of decent mechanics. You're too afraid of "secrets" getting out, which may cost you business... Please...

Though I am capable of modifying subrails, to a reasonable degree of accuracy, I still suggest your services to my customers, because it would save me a lot of hassle. However, I will not be the middle man, should they choose to have you do the work. The simple reason: because you're too much of an arrogant ***** for my liking. I would not spend a dime on your services, not because it wouldn't be worth it, but because I don't like your piss poor attitude.

I wouldn't buy a cup of water from you, if I were on fire.

When you're the last one left on this forum, which seems to be what you want, you can wonder why it's so lonely. "


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To the forum:
I am sure Josh is not the only one who feels this way. I am not letting anyone push me away from this forum. I have learned so much here and love having a place to network with other people who are in the same business. Thanks to those who have helped me with information & resources, are willing to in the future and those who positively contribute to the forum. Super happy Real King Cobra is baaaaaack!!!

Trent from Toledo
 
Last edited:
Club Billiards said:
My 2 cents, if the rubber needs replaced on those tables, the modification needs done. Fastone kinda nailed it although he didn't elaborate. A 9' should be 50x100". Without mods, you're at 49-3/4"x99-3/4", in other words, not at length = 2 x width, in other words no longer regulation playing surface specs. Your diamond system is inaccurate at that point.

When dealing with an older table with Monarch rubber, I don't really present it as an option. If you're replacing the rubber, it's going to be more expensive because that mod needs to be done to keep the playing surface where it needs to be. My priority as a mechanic is playability before furniture. You're in the unique position of not really needing to "sell" that mod. It's something that needs to be included in the price of replacing the rubber.

I always wonder how many people would try to buy a car without windows if they were sold as an option you had to pay for. :grin:
Click to expand...

Well said Josh, straight and to the point. If the customer asks why you charge more to replace cushions on a Monarch equipped table its because the rails must be modified, end of story. A table as beautiful as a restored Anniversary or Centennial deserves to play as well as it looks, one would expect them to play better than a $1200 made in Taiwan table.
 
Club Billiards said:
Jesus, Mark, is everything about you? I usually keep my mouth shut...this shit is actually why I rarely post on here any more. Come on though....what would it take to remove the emotion and ego from these forums? Trent said nothing about you in that post. Are you that defensive, or that insecure? I don't see any reason for you to be from the level of work I've seen come out of your shop. Maybe it's something else, but that doesn't belong here.

What's your purpose on here, Mark? Are you here to showcase work so that potential customers may become more educated? All your bashing a personal attacks don't do much educating. Have you watched too many political commercials? Is that how you hope to gain business is by bashing everyone else? You don't appear to have any interest in helping other mechanics on here. (Maybe helping them understand you're better) I just don't get it, dude. You're one of the most talented mechanics out there, but all you do is stoop to a lower level and talk shit about everyone else and take on this "I know something you don't know" grade school attitude. I've hesitated to even post this because I feel like I'm stooping to your level, but I'm just sick of this forum being like this.

Look, we're all adults here. Most of us either professionals performing a service or someone looking for a professional to perform a service. We as a group don't act very professional at all. Mark, I don't know if you have person issue with me...I can't imagine what I've ever done to cross you, yet I've watched you bash me for being one of Glen's "minions", talk shit about almost every mechanic but you, and now back-door bash me by insinuating that Trent's tables will play like shit. If you have issue with how I do work, don't be so passive aggressive. Give me a call. My number is easy to find. I know I'm not the best out there, but I take pride in learning every day. I'd love some POSITIVE input from you on how to improve the work I do.

Remember your roots, Mark. I don't know your background or where you learned what you know, but I know for sure you didn't always have the knowledge and experience you have now. I think you have zero respect for those who are now where you used to be...working our ass off trying to better our trade and keep putting out work that makes our customers happy and keeps our kids fed. Guys like us need a mentor more than a bully.
Click to expand...

First off Josh....I never said a word about you......if he wants you to do his rail work....I don't care....did I mention your name?
He can't just say I'm sending my rails to Josh.....no he has to put in there....we'll you time frame is good and the other guy was double and 700 miles plus shipping.....now what don't you get about the 700 miles....who is he knocking....me.....Josh the guy would be better off leaving him tables as they are ....then have you do the rails.......now am I a bully....or telling the truth.
Trent wants to keep on knocking....but all is ok with you now.....cause you may get some work for....you agreed with me to Glen...now it's turned for work. And no I didnt forget where I came from.....and when I post my work it's cause I did the repair work.....that's work...not for sell.
Where did I run someone off....cause I told the truth about their work....the problem is that if Mark or Glen don't say something good about the persons work....then we're bullies.....you guys want us to lie on here to gives guys props...for want...so guys doing things the wrong way and gets jobs.....you know how many phone calls I had about others rail work......the guys don't have the money to do the rails again...so they live with them.
You a mistake Josh posting that......cause I won't teach you rail work.....Glen showed you guys a little how to.....want did it get him.....customers calling him complaining....just ask him if he wants to be honest.
Running people off here who.....the 4 or 5 that Glen showed Rail work to....I didn't run them off...they do have any answers without Glen....and as far as me answering....how many times can we answer the same questions......help people in this business....I showed Guys rail work in my back yard.
You don't know me Josh.....I'm not like Glen....Glen loves you guys holding him up.....I don't care...I'm the last with and ego.....but like I said you don't know me.....and Trent find a new writer.....or think of something to say that someone didn't.
Good luck Josh


Mark Gregory
 
perfectpocketz said:
Trent instead of always trying to do your best at knocking me with your little hints of yours....why don't you just tell the truth....you asked me to do the rail work and not put cushions on...so you could copy my work.....
Mark Gregory
Click to expand...
Mark, is that even possible , if may ask ?
How can he copy your work ?
The specs to install those cushions are on-line.
The tooling to do precise work, might not be.

I think you should make your work available to restorers but you will need to put a stamp or signature somewhere to indicate you did the rail work.
 
Last edited:
"...and if they get your tables and don't like the play..."

That's the part I'm referring to, Mark. I'm curious why they wouldn't like the play, or why they would be better off leaving them as is than having me do work to them.

Obviously you think I have room to grow, and I'll always agree with that. I've gotten pretty good feedback from my past customers to date. I want to know where I can improve though, so let me know. Yes, Glen has shown me a LOT and it's really opened my eyes to how much better the job can be done from the guys that trained me in the past. My experience in the field has shown me a lot too. There's always more to learn though. You'd rather bash me than show me anything, and that's fine. You give me the impression that you've gotten a bunch of feedback from people that I do shit work. If that's true, I feel like I deserve to know. If any of you guys are not pleased with the work I've done, shoot me a PM and let me know what you weren't happy with. I'd appreciate the opportunity to address it.

Trent, apparently Mark feels like I shouldn't like I shouldn't do your rail work. I guess you should send them to him instead. :-) I'll probably just butcher them.
 
You came highly recommended from a veteran of this business.

Josh,

I spoke with Jay from A-1 Billiards and he highly recommended you. He has been doing this for a VERY long time and is an excellent business man that is very successful. I trust his opinion and have no fear. I have an idea of what goes into the sub-rail modification from speaking to quite a few very skilled mechanics and researching on here. I aspire to eventually do my own sub rail modifications, but, I do not plan to until I have been taught by someone who feels I am ready for the knowledge. I have no problems contracting this work out to ensure the quality of it for future clients, now that I have an affordable and reliable solution for it. I also spoke to Zach out in Arizona and I will also be sending some rails out to him at some point as well. He is a very straight up guy and spent over an hour on the phone with me discussing his business and history as a mechanic.
I work hard to stay with in my skill set and not deviate unless I am sure I can do a good job. I do the best work I can and do I think it is the best? NO, but, I work hard and I know it can only get better. It is not like everyone started out doing sub-rail modifications in the beginning of their careers. I know this because of the % of people out there doing it is soooooo small. I am going on my 3rd year in this business in May of next year and I am proud of how much I have accomplished this far; Consequently, I am also very happy with the direction I am headed. I love the business and have a passion for it.

I am going skateboarding now:) Have a good day!

Trent
 
trentfromtoledo said:
Josh,

I spoke with Jay from A-1 Billiards and he highly recommended you. He has been doing this for a VERY long time and is an excellent business man that is very successful. I trust his opinion and have no fear. I have an idea of what goes into the sub-rail modification from speaking to quite a few very skilled mechanics and researching on here. I aspire to eventually do my own sub rail modifications, but, I do not plan to until I have been taught by someone who feels I am ready for the knowledge. I have no problems contracting this work out to ensure the quality of it for future clients, now that I have an affordable and reliable solution for it. I also spoke to Zach out in Arizona and I will also be sending some rails out to him at some point as well. He is a very straight up guy and spent over an hour on the phone with me discussing his business and history as a mechanic.
I work hard to stay with in my skill set and not deviate unless I am sure I can do a good job. I do the best work I can and do I think it is the best? NO, but, I work hard and I know it can only get better. It is not like everyone started out doing sub-rail modifications in the beginning of their careers. I know this because of the % of people out there doing it is soooooo small. I am going on my 3rd year in this business in May of next year and I am proud of how much I have accomplished this far; Consequently, I am also very happy with the direction I am headed. I love the business and have a passion for it.

I am going skateboarding now:) Have a good day!

Trent
Click to expand...
I think you can thank Mark for pushing you to get your tables re-railed.
You did say your customers are happy with their Monarch cushions replaced with K55 without modification.
 
To each their own.

JoeyInCali said:
I think you can thank Mark for pushing you to get your tables re-railed.
You did say your customers are happy with their Monarch cushions replaced with K55 without modification.
Click to expand...

We all have our opinions. I will refrain from giving mine on your first thought.

As for the other part of your input:I have not had a single complaint yet from my past clients. 10 GC-2'S, 8 GC-4's, 8 Anniversary's and 1 Centennial.

My next Anniversary or Centennial Projects will definitely have the modified subrails.

I don't buy GC2's anymore and prefer the GC4's. I will not be having it done to the GC4 tables. They are the proper cushions as per the manufacturer, the size of the table is correct and I like the way they play.

I used to captain my BCA Team out of a Diamond room with 7 foot Pro Am's and like the way those play, but, prefer the GC4 over them personally. I now captain my team(BCA Rules but an in house league) out of a Brunswick room with 9 foot GC3's. I really enjoy playing on the bigger tables.


Trent from Toledo
 
For what it's worth!

I will continue to send my Rail Calibration work to Mark. I have never seen a better shop and machinary for that kind of work than I have seen in Mark's shop. He uses precision tooling. I am not knocking anyone. In fact I like the fact that guys like Josh have the interest and drive to want to do Rail Calibration work. I spent a week with Mark and years with Bobby DeTurk and knew I did not want to invest the time or energy trying to do that work. The calibration of a rail is so much more than cutting the bevel and putting a cushion on. Guys like Bobby, Mark and a few others, know the specs for all different makes and patterns of cushion. I am not just talking about a couple degrees but dozens. I do my own cushions on 95% of the home tables I work on. But I do use Mark when I feel the table needs to have the rails calibrated. I have no problem paying top price for top work. Mark's motto "Anything for a friend for a fee!" lol Again, I am not knocking anyone. I am friends with just about everyone of the mechanics that post here. I want to make a special shout out to Josh for hooking me up with some hard to get cushions. Not only did he send them but he did not add anything on for himself. I really appreciate it!

Now back to Trent..... lol only kidding..
 
trentfromtoledo said:
We all have our opinions. I will refrain from giving mine on your first thought.

As for the other part of your input:I have not had a single complaint yet from my past clients. 10 GC-2'S, 8 GC-4's, 8 Anniversary's and 1 Centennial.

My next Anniversary or Centennial Projects will definitely have the modified subrails.




Trent from Toledo
Click to expand...
What for ? Nobody has complained.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Mark, is that even possible , if may ask ?
How can he copy your work ?
The specs to install those cushions are on-line.
The tooling to do precise work, might not be.

I think you should make your work available to restorers but you will need to put a stamp or signature somewhere to indicate you did the rail work.
Click to expand...

The difference is all rails are different thickness for the most part.
All this has been on here....that's where it all starts.....with the rail....then the sub rails....then the bevel.....we have going over this time and time again.
Everyone thinks....oh just make the sub rail 1-11/16ths and cut the nevel and everything's right....if it was that easy....wouldn't everyone do their own rails.
The tooling help yes.....knowing how to use the tooling help......but understanding how tables play and how you want them to play is everything.
Mark Gregory
 
hmmm.

JoeyInCali said:
What for ? Nobody has complained.
Click to expand...

A. I owe you no explanation, especially when you are obviously trying to get a reaction out of me. B. Nope, not one person.

Trent from Toledo


P.s. "Now back to Trent..... lol only kidding.." Nice one Pat!! LOL!! I am in great spirits :) Had a great skate session today. I also am the Director of the Skateboard Program @ The Right Direction, a non-profit action sports organization. We host 6 contests a year and our Tricks for Treats Halloween contest was yesterday/ last night and WAS AMAZING! The turn out was great and everything went smooth :) Lots of work!!! My skateboard company is also the main sponsor and provides the 9 prize packages for beginner, intermediate and advanced 1st-3rd place !
 
Club Billiards said:
"...and if they get your tables and don't like the play..."

That's the part I'm referring to, Mark. I'm curious why they wouldn't like the play, or why they would be better off leaving them as is than having me do work to them.

Obviously you think I have room to grow, and I'll always agree with that. I've gotten pretty good feedback from my past customers to date. I want to know where I can improve though, so let me know. Yes, Glen has shown me a LOT and it's really opened my eyes to how much better the job can be done from the guys that trained me in the past. My experience in the field has shown me a lot too. There's always more to learn though. You'd rather bash me than show me anything, and that's fine. You give me the impression that you've gotten a bunch of feedback from people that I do shit work. If that's true, I feel like I deserve to know. If any of you guys are not pleased with the work I've done, shoot me a PM and let me know what you weren't happy with. I'd appreciate the opportunity to address it.

Trent, apparently Mark feels like I shouldn't like I shouldn't do your rail work. I guess you should send them to him instead. :-) I'll probably just butcher them.
Click to expand...

Yes Josh....I have a set of Crntennial rails I did a year or so ago....the customers a great guy....tipped me unbelievable....and called me a few monts back and said he wasn't happy with his rails......I'm going to go back pick them up and make them right on my dime....cause I made the mistakes on them.
I'm not embarrassed to say I make mistakes.....I do....I make a lot of them in the shop......who don't.
U guys want to say I'm the ego maniac....no one can do rails like me.....that's all bullshit......that's you guys way of putting me down for not showing you guys how to do rail work........but if any of you would take a minute and think.....has Glen not help everyone of you guys one on one.....do you think that's all Glens ideas of doing rails......here's why you guys don't do the kind of work Glen and I do......you guys don't put the hours...days ...months...years...in like Glen and I have.....do any of you guys have any idea how much time Glen and I have spent on the phone discussing rails for hours......putting the ideas in to loss income......time.....meterials.....losing saw blades.....popular.....up all night frustrated cause nothing's going right.
No....everyone wants to call me out for my work.....why cause I don't want to teach you guys how to rails the right way.......but all the info you've gotten over the last few years....came from my ideas and Glen.....glen is just the one that told you guys....so Glen helps and I dont....some of those ideas are mine Glens giving away.....but you don't see it that way.....you want someone to tell you every step.
Josh and everyone else doing rail work.....IT DON'T WORK LIKE THAT....we have given all the info needed to great work.....now it's up to guys to dedicate the time and money making mistakes and learning on your own.
For the most part....you guys are still doing the things Glen showed you guys from the start.......you have to try new things on your own....ever rail is different....so you have to figure out what needs to be done on that set of rails......Glen just can't tell you measurements over the phone and the rails will turn out great....not going to happen.
No one ever turned down a call from anyone.....everyone thought....man I can do rails and make a lot more money.....but it's not that easy.......you really have to put blood sweat and tears in to the rails....until they come out the way your happy with.
No ones perfect......not me for sure......I'm not up set you guys do rail work....what up sets me more than anything....you guys don't want to take what Glen showed you and better yourselves
when you start putting endless hours in like Glen and I did....and still do....and you keep thinking there's some magic pill that will make you do rails like us.....there's not.....if call trail and error.....and loss of money....until things start looking better.....and when your done with the set of rails....if your not a good player....have one play on the table and be honest with you....if they play to fast.....bring the nose height up.....I mean come on.....this work is sacrifice.....for what so I can here guys in the business for a year or two....put me and my prices down....I've been playing pool and working on table since I was 13......and I still make mistakes.
I've invested about 30k on tools...for what.....just to rails as good as I can....to here shit from guys that want to work on tables for a few years....put some hard work in on rails.....teach yourself things....we can just tell you how to do a set of rail......you can't be scared to make a mistake....and for sure your going to lose money for a good while.....that's why guys don't want to do this work....that guys moving tables and recovering tables makes more in one day than Glen and I make together in a week......but Glen and I are willing to trade money for perfection.
Yes we're not ever going to make any kind of money at what we do......but we are ok with that......and when guys start with you don't want to give us your secerts on rails....and your ego is so big......we have given you guys all and more than we can....it's up to you guys to do the jobs.
I showed Bobby.....but in a few months of Bobby doing his own thing with rails.....he was giving me tips on rails....why cause Bobby spent nothing but time on rails in his own shop.
You know all the measurement.....all the bevels....all the miters....as I do....as Glen does.....the only difference....we bust are asses trying to prefect them.....you guys want to cry wolf.
Glen and I aren't going to do the work for you....and Glen will answer any questions any of you guys have....the problem is.....your either not understanding him.....or your simply not trying very hard....and that's your call.
But please stop saying I never told any of you guys anything.....or let my knowledge out through Glen or anyone else.
Look how Glen showed everyone a great way to install cloth....and everyone understands it well....you don't here anyone crying about show me how to do the cloth work.
You put the time in covering tables and now it's easy to do.....put your time in on the rails if you want to do great work......you may all do better rails than Glen and I both someday....but until you spend the time you will never know.
Like Glen says.....this job picks you....you don't pick this job.
If you guys had any idea how many aguements Glen and I have had over the phone about rails.....we just had a big one today...ask him.....but before we were done talking and argueing.....we both agreed.....well more like Glen settled me down.....I'm so glad Glen don't have the temper I have....trust me he would come through the phone and knock me out for a week.....but he stays claim and talks until I claim down and make sence.
Believe me Glen a great mechanic with a ton of knowledge....but that don't mean I won't yell at him....LOL
I hope you guys understand where I'm coming from...and how it's up to you guys to put in the time it takes to get better.
All the info won't make any difference....unless you figure out what works and what don't.....we did it....so can you.

Mark Gregory
 
Pat, it's no problem. I've done the same thing for several people on here. I consider this a community of peers and have no problem helping my fellow mechanics. At the price Bob sold them to me, I don't think he made anything. He'd have sold them to you for the same thing I did if I had to guess. Just paying it forward.
 
perfectpocketz said:
Yes Josh....I have a set of Crntennial rails I did a year or so ago....the customers a great guy....tipped me unbelievable....and called me a few monts back and said he wasn't happy with his rails......I'm going to go back pick them up and make them right on my dime....cause I made the mistakes on them.
I'm not embarrassed to say I make mistakes.....I do....I make a lot of them in the shop......who don't.
U guys want to say I'm the ego maniac....no one can do rails like me.....that's all bullshit......that's you guys way of putting me down for not showing you guys how to do rail work........but if any of you would take a minute and think.....has Glen not help everyone of you guys one on one.....do you think that's all Glens ideas of doing rails......here's why you guys don't do the kind of work Glen and I do......you guys don't put the hours...days ...months...years...in like Glen and I have.....do any of you guys have any idea how much time Glen and I have spent on the phone discussing rails for hours......putting the ideas in to loss income......time.....meterials.....losing saw blades.....popular.....up all night frustrated cause nothing's going right.
No....everyone wants to call me out for my work.....why cause I don't want to teach you guys how to rails the right way.......but all the info you've gotten over the last few years....came from my ideas and Glen.....glen is just the one that told you guys....so Glen helps and I dont....some of those ideas are mine Glens giving away.....but you don't see it that way.....you want someone to tell you every step.
Josh and everyone else doing rail work.....IT DON'T WORK LIKE THAT....we have given all the info needed to great work.....now it's up to guys to dedicate the time and money making mistakes and learning on your own.
For the most part....you guys are still doing the things Glen showed you guys from the start.......you have to try new things on your own....ever rail is different....so you have to figure out what needs to be done on that set of rails......Glen just can't tell you measurements over the phone and the rails will turn out great....not going to happen.
No one ever turned down a call from anyone.....everyone thought....man I can do rails and make a lot more money.....but it's not that easy.......you really have to put blood sweat and tears in to the rails....until they come out the way your happy with.
No ones perfect......not me for sure......I'm not up set you guys do rail work....what up sets me more than anything....you guys don't want to take what Glen showed you and better yourselves
when you start putting endless hours in like Glen and I did....and still do....and you keep thinking there's some magic pill that will make you do rails like us.....there's not.....if call trail and error.....and loss of money....until things start looking better.....and when your done with the set of rails....if your not a good player....have one play on the table and be honest with you....if they play to fast.....bring the nose height up.....I mean come on.....this work is sacrifice.....for what so I can here guys in the business for a year or two....put me and my prices down....I've been playing pool and working on table since I was 13......and I still make mistakes.
I've invested about 30k on tools...for what.....just to rails as good as I can....to here shit from guys that want to work on tables for a few years....put some hard work in on rails.....teach yourself things....we can just tell you how to do a set of rail......you can't be scared to make a mistake....and for sure your going to lose money for a good while.....that's why guys don't want to do this work....that guys moving tables and recovering tables makes more in one day than Glen and I make together in a week......but Glen and I are willing to trade money for perfection.
Yes we're not ever going to make any kind of money at what we do......but we are ok with that......and when guys start with you don't want to give us your secerts on rails....and your ego is so big......we have given you guys all and more than we can....it's up to you guys to do the jobs.
I showed Bobby.....but in a few months of Bobby doing his own thing with rails.....he was giving me tips on rails....why cause Bobby spent nothing but time on rails in his own shop.
You know all the measurement.....all the bevels....all the miters....as I do....as Glen does.....the only difference....we bust are asses trying to prefect them.....you guys want to cry wolf.
Glen and I aren't going to do the work for you....and Glen will answer any questions any of you guys have....the problem is.....your either not understanding him.....or your simply not trying very hard....and that's your call.
But please stop saying I never told any of you guys anything.....or let my knowledge out through Glen or anyone else.
Look how Glen showed everyone a great way to install cloth....and everyone understands it well....you don't here anyone crying about show me how to do the cloth work.
You put the time in covering tables and now it's easy to do.....put your time in on the rails if you want to do great work......you may all do better rails than Glen and I both someday....but until you spend the time you will never know.
Like Glen says.....this job picks you....you don't pick this job.
If you guys had any idea how many aguements Glen and I have had over the phone about rails.....we just had a big one today...ask him.....but before we were done talking and argueing.....we both agreed.....well more like Glen settled me down.....I'm so glad Glen don't have the temper I have....trust me he would come through the phone and knock me out for a week.....but he stays claim and talks until I claim down and make sence.
Believe me Glen a great mechanic with a ton of knowledge....but that don't mean I won't yell at him....LOL
I hope you guys understand where I'm coming from...and how it's up to you guys to put in the time it takes to get better.
All the info won't make any difference....unless you figure out what works and what don't.....we did it....so can you.

Mark Gregory
Click to expand...

Mark, I can appreciate this post much more than so many others I've seen from you. I've never once called you out for your work. Believe me, as much as he's shown me, I've called Glen out at times too for appearing more like arguing on here than working together for the common good (and most of that arguing was with you!) LOL

The fact of the matter is, that's why it aggravates me. I do put in the hours to try to figure out how to do a better job than I do now. I just haven't put in as many hours as you yet...I've only been doing this for 15 years and the first 5 or so was working as a helper and learning a lot of short cuts and what not to do. Trust me, I've always known there was a better way though. Just last week, I went back on a job of mine (two hours away) for free because the guy wasn't happy with the work. Now at the root of it, I think it came down to a misunderstanding or lack of clarity in the beginning regarding what he wanted. He has an older red label and wanted it to play like a blue, except not quite as tight as Pro cut. Well, we talked angles and size a while before deciding on a width and that's what I cut them too. When I got them back to him, he was jawing more balls than he liked. I took the rails back and made the adjustments and now he's pleased with the play of the table.

I don't mind taking the time to redo work that isn't right even if it costs me time and money because it's worth the learning opportunity. I don't mind messing up because that's an opportunity to learn how to fix something or to do it better. I don't mind that you're protective with your knowledge, Mark. I've turned down offers to teach people how to do some things too. I've got "competitors" in the area that can't install worsted, and I haven't offered to teach them. In this economy we all want to protect our own. The only part I have a problem with is feeling personally attacked and treated like a hack because I don't know as much as you, because I do bust my ass to learn more and figure out a better way. I flew out to Vegas to ride around in Glen's truck for 3 weeks losing all the money I'd have made back home, just because he offered to teach me. (To be fair, he couldn't have made any money in that time either with all the meals, hotels and everything else he helped out with.) I didn't hesitate to drive 5 hours to Alsip for the seminar, or for the Championship training course. It's all an opportunity to learn how others do things. Mark, if you offered a class, I'd gladly pay for your knowledge too...I'm not asking for it for free or looking for a shortcut.

My main point is the attitude of this forum has gone to shit and it frustrates me. There's a lot of tension and bickering, where I wish there was more community and camaraderie.
 
Club Billiards said:
Mark, I can appreciate this post much more than so many others I've seen from you. I've never once called you out for your work. Believe me, as much as he's shown me, I've called Glen out at times too for appearing more like arguing on here than working together for the common good (and most of that arguing was with you!) LOL

The fact of the matter is, that's why it aggravates me. I do put in the hours to try to figure out how to do a better job than I do now. I just haven't put in as many hours as you yet...I've only been doing this for 15 years and the first 5 or so was working as a helper and learning a lot of short cuts and what not to do. Trust me, I've always known there was a better way though. Just last week, I went back on a job of mine (two hours away) for free because the guy wasn't happy with the work. Now at the root of it, I think it came down to a misunderstanding or lack of clarity in the beginning regarding what he wanted. He has an older red label and wanted it to play like a blue, except not quite as tight as Pro cut. Well, we talked angles and size a while before deciding on a width and that's what I cut them too. When I got them back to him, he was jawing more balls than he liked. I took the rails back and made the adjustments and now he's pleased with the play of the table.

I don't mind taking the time to redo work that isn't right even if it costs me time and money because it's worth the learning opportunity. I don't mind messing up because that's an opportunity to learn how to fix something or to do it better. I don't mind that you're protective with your knowledge, Mark. I've turned down offers to teach people how to do some things too. I've got "competitors" in the area that can't install worsted, and I haven't offered to teach them. In this economy we all want to protect our own. The only part I have a problem with is feeling personally attacked and treated like a hack because I don't know as much as you, because I do bust my ass to learn more and figure out a better way. I flew out to Vegas to ride around in Glen's truck for 3 weeks losing all the money I'd have made back home, just because he offered to teach me. (To be fair, he couldn't have made any money in that time either with all the meals, hotels and everything else he helped out with.) I didn't hesitate to drive 5 hours to Alsip for the seminar, or for the Championship training course. It's all an opportunity to learn how others do things. Mark, if you offered a class, I'd gladly pay for your knowledge too...I'm not asking for it for free or looking for a shortcut.

My main point is the attitude of this forum has gone to shit and it frustrates me. There's a lot of tension and bickering, where I wish there was more community and camaraderie.
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you said....but the way I do rails and the others do them are not that much different....I just use more accurate tooling.
I spent so much on high dollar tools....and that makes a big difference for one.
The only thing I can help you with is.....like I said you have to do a set where you can keep and eye on them....watch how they play in the beginning.....and when the cloth starts to wear out....I will say this....the more the cloth wears on Artemis cushions...the worse the table seems to play....super speed no so much change.....that's why I like super speed cushions....I've yet to install the klamatch cushions....but when I do ....I want them to close by to keep and eye on them.
I would never think for a minute you wouldn't do a return trip for a customer....as far as rails.....you have to start with the rail.....get it to the height you want.....the same with the sub rail....and the correct bevel....the hard part is to get them steight and on the money.
Rails are the hardest part of the table to get right....there're twisted...bowed...warped....dry rioted....cracked....chewed up...and anything else you can imagine....you know that.....trying to put the time in and corretly repair everything is frustrating....and do pay like it sounds.
Think about it....I put at least 7 to 10 days of work in on a set of rails....not 8 hrs a days....but drying time....fabricating things....sizing.....glueing.....it's time consuming....so if I do a set and nothing else in say 8 days....make 850 for the job after all the meterials and shipping....I could have done 3 recoveries in 2 days and made the same or more.
I got into rails cause the tables played so badly I was gambling on....and stayed with it for years.....now I'm doing a lot more restorations of anniversaries and centennials.....but again the work I do to one takes months...I don't want to turn and burn anything.....I do shit like it's going to mine forever......I'm not saying anyone does or doesn't put as much time as I do in restorations.....I'm just saying what I do.
I don't recomend doing things the way I do them or Glen....unless you don't mind not making money.....I get by every month.....but trust me....I'm not buying any new cars anytime soon...lol
You just have to keep changing things and invest in high dollar tools....if that's the way you want to go.
That's you call....but to think me showing something that makes things easy....it's all about the tools and the time...ask Bobby.....you learn more spending time doing things...than anyone trying to tell you to do it this way or you can't do it that way......do a set for fre and put them in a local place that plays a lot and has a good player.....I did the table we were gambling on a year ago 4 times in 2 weeks. On a GC5....until I got it to where I thought it was perfect.
All the top players loved the table....but the first 3 I didn't and they didn't like at all.....rails are all different.....you have to treat each set differently.....that's the best advice I can give you for now.....invest in high dollar tool over time and you'll see the difference the way the rail come out and how they play.
Mark Gregory

PS if you don't argue with Glen....your not trying....LOL
 
trentfromtoledo said:
A. I owe you no explanation, especially when you are obviously trying to get a reaction out of me. B. Nope, not one person.

Trent from Toledo


!
Click to expand...
It really hurts to say Mark you pushed to be a better mechanic huh ?
Or to learn how to do the rails right.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top