Raschig new old stock review

[SUPERSTAR]

In order to actively identify these mysterious forgeries, we must first have a documented set of forged balls with their original packing. Do you have such a set?

Well I’m no historian and I don’t collect pool balls.
I did however play with plenty of sets back in the day.
Every single one of them had a black dot.
Every. Single. One.
East coast, West coast, and everywhere in between.
If they were Raschigs, they had the black dot.

Figures that 30 years after the fact this comes up, decades after the balls went extinct and who knows what sets still available were tampered with or forged or not.

Seems like they are so rare that only old heads who were around when these balls were around, will remember.
How is someone going to disprove the authenticity without talking to the people at that company who actually made the balls?

Anyone today could make up whatever story they wanted and claim the set is authentic with no way to dispute it.
People who weren’t around back in the day, playing with those balls, have zero way of knowing if they are real or not.

 

[Boxcar]

How is someone going to disprove the authenticity without talking to the people at that company who actually made the balls?

I'm 77. You are absolutely right. The only true way to authenticate a pool ball is to put it in front of the man who made it. Everything else is just hearsay and speculation. Raschig GmbH is out of the pool ball business and will not talk to people on the phone or answer their letters. The only other way to evaluate still NIB Raschig balls which were purchased from Dufferin or any of the other Raschig dealers around the world is to talk with them. Trying to authenticate a set of balls without unimpeachable provenance, though, is a crapshoot at best and, in truth, an impossibility.

So, we are left with sets like the two pictured here. Both owners provided ample first person provenance on their balls. Rupert has impeccable credentials in the ownership and study of Raschig balls and SennaDrive said he bought his NOS set 25 years ago. Who from and where he purchased his set would be a valuable addition to the our knowledge base. In point, the likelihood that either set is a forgery is quite remote. Actually, the physical presence of the sets does more to authenticate them than their separate backgrounds.

When these sets were new, there weren't but 5 pool ball manufacturers on earth with the in-place technology to build phenolic resin balls and they all knew each other. The point that I am trying to make is this: the notion of the existence of Raschig forgeries is an old wives tales, passed along by people who weren't aware of all the complexities which make such forgeries virtually impossible.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

I'm 77. You are absolutely right. The only true way to authenticate a pool ball is to put it in front of the man who made it. Everything else is just hearsay and speculation. Raschig GmbH is out of the pool ball business and will not talk to people on the phone or answer their letters. The only other way to evaluate still NIB Raschig balls which were purchased from Dufferin or any of the other Raschig dealers around the world is to talk with them. Trying to authenticate a set of balls without unimpeachable provenance is a crapshoot at best and, in truth, an impossibility.

So, we are left with sets like the two pictured here. Both owners provided ample first person provenance on their balls. Rupert has impeccable credentials in the ownership and study of Raschig balls and SennaDrive said he bought his NOS set 25 years ago. Who from and where he purchased his set would be a valuable addition to the our knowledge base. In point, the likelihood that either set is a forgery is quite remote. Actually, the physical presence of the sets does more to authenticate them than their separate backgrounds.

When these sets were new, there weren't but 5 pool ball manufacturers on earth with the in-place technology to build phenolic resin balls and they all knew each other. The point that I am trying to make is this: the notion of the existence of Raschig forgeries is an old wives tales, passed along by people who weren't aware of all the complexities which make such forgeries virtually impossible.

Well to me, at the very least, the cueball that came with iusedtoberich’s set is suspect.
That would put the entire set into the fake/fraudulent category for me.

If iusedtoberich bought his set 5 years ago, decades after the company stopped producing them but WELL within the time of various other companies producing sets of balls, how are we to determine when they were actually made?

Seems to me like the door could be wide open on the possibilities.

Ive seen more than my fare share of cue forgeries, FROM FAMOUS CUEMAKERS, faking and forging legendary cues from the past and laughing about how they got one over on some unsuspecting buyer.

Fake set of balls wouldn’t surprise me in the least given what type of reputation these balls had.
I don’t think it’s financially lucrative to fake a set of balls, but pool people are a bunch of whack jobs.

There is ALWAYS some weird dude that gets off on having something coveted by the masses.

 

[SennaDrive65]

Just went and looked under various different lighting conditions , The cue ball "patina" yellowing is exactly the shade as the "white" sections of all the striped balls. Based on that (and my earlier post of weight) I can not see how the cue ball in not original. Boxcar brings up a very important point... is it really probable that 25 to 35 years ago forgeries were being make of Raschig pool balls? by who? would there be enough business to justify it? Seems unlikely. I bought mine from a Brunswick retail / dealer store with a showroom in Southern California in approximately 1998.

 

[Boxcar]

Well to me, at the very least, the cueball that came with iusedtoberich’s set is suspect.
That would put the entire set into the fake/fraudulent category for me.

If iusedtoberich bought his set 5 years ago, decades after the company stopped producing them but WELL within the time of various other companies producing sets of balls, how are we to determine when they were actually made?

Seems to me like the door could be wide open on the possibilities.

Ive seen more than my fare share of cue forgeries, FROM FAMOUS CUEMAKERS, faking and forging legendary cues from the past and laughing about how they got one over on some unsuspecting buyer.

Fake set of balls wouldn’t surprise me in the least given what type of reputation these balls had.
I don’t think it’s financially lucrative to fake a set of balls, but pool people are a bunch of whack jobs.

There is ALWAYS some weird dude that gets off on having something coveted by the masses.

Very good points! Thank you!

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Just went and looked under various different lighting conditions , The cue ball "patina" yellowing is exactly the shade as the "white" sections of all the striped balls. Based on that (and my earlier post of weight) I can not see how the cue ball in not original. Boxcar brings up a very important point... is it really probable that 25 to 35 years ago forgeries were being make of Raschig pool balls? by who? would there be enough business to justify it? Seems unlikely. I bought mine from a Brunswick retail / dealer store with a showroom in Southern California in approximately 1998.

I’m saying that a set of fakes could have been made 6 years ago and the off white color can simply be a drop of “old” color added to the white.
Fakes don’t have to be from 30 years ago.
They could be recent if someone really wanted to, and then presented as original.

 

[Boxcar]

Just went and looked under various different lighting conditions , The cue ball "patina" yellowing is exactly the shade as the "white" sections of all the striped balls. Based on that (and my earlier post of weight) I can not see how the cue ball in not original. Boxcar brings up a very important point... is it really probable that 25 to 35 years ago forgeries were being make of Raschig pool balls? by who? would there be enough business to justify it? Seems unlikely. I bought mine from a Brunswick retail / dealer store with a showroom in Southern California in approximately 1998.

Thank you very much for the additional information on your purchase. I agree with your assessment of the "forgery" issue.

 

[Boxcar]

I’m saying that a set of fakes could have been made 6 years ago and the off white color can simply be a drop of “old” color added to the white.
Fakes don’t have to be from 30 years ago.
They could be recent if someone really wanted to, and then presented as original.

"If" is a big word. It's easy to say "if someone really wanted to" but who is that certain someone. What would be the motivation to retool a plant that is already building their own balls and making a profit doing it? How would they go about marketing this forgery. Who would manufacture the boxes to exactly match the original boxes. Inks are easy to test and so is cardboard. What's the point? Better yet, what's the payoff?

Forging Matisse's paintings would be easy compared to forging a set of pool balls. If you were a distributor and a salesman you had never seen before came into your office and offered a steady supply of Raschig balls, would you buy from him?

Trying to argue that this mysterious someone would go out and spend +/-five hundred thousand dollars to convert an existing production line and re-train his low wage staff so that he could sell 20 sets of $300.00 balls doesn't seem to make much sense.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

"If" is a big word. It's easy to say "if someone really wanted to" but who is that certain someone. What would be the motivation to retool a plant that is already building their own balls and making a profit doing it? How would they go about marketing this forgery. Who would manufacture the boxes to exactly match the original boxes. Inks are easy to test and so is cardboard. What's the point? Better yet, what's the payoff?

Forging Matisse's paintings would be easy compared to forging a set of pool balls. If you were a distributor and a salesman you had never seen before came into your office and offered a steady supply of Raschig balls, would you buy from him?

Trying to argue that this mysterious someone would go out and spend +/-five hundred thousand dollars to convert an existing production line and re-train his low wage staff so that he could sell 20 sets of $300.00 balls doesn't seem to make much sense.

I’m sure iusedtoberich could comment on manufacturing in China.
Probably not that hard given today’s technology.

It’s not profitable at all, IMO, to fake a set of balls.

But didn’t Cube say that he had a set of counterfeit Raschigs for a different game? The bumble bee balls? Or is that just a different style of ball?

Anyway, when were THOSE balls manufactured and why do you think they were?
From my understanding, Raschig didn’t stop making one type of ball and keep making others. They stopped everything.

Seems to me that if he has a bonafide set of counterfeits, that means that someone out there was counterfeiting them.
So why not counterfeit the traditional pocket billiards balls?

 

[Boxcar]

I’m sure iusedtoberich could comment on manufacturing in China.
Probably not that hard given today’s technology.

It’s not profitable at all, IMO, to fake a set of balls.

But didn’t Cube say that he had a set of counterfeit Raschigs for a different game? The bumble bee balls? Or is that just a different style of ball?

Anyway, when were THOSE balls manufactured and why do you think they were?
From my understanding, Raschig didn’t stop making one type of ball and keep making others. They stopped everything.

Seems to me that if he has a bonafide set of counterfeits, that means that someone out there was counterfeiting them.
So why not counterfeit the traditional pocket billiards balls?

To the best of my knowledge, the technology for phenolic resin pool ball manufacturing came to the far east in the last +/- ten years. The bumblebees Rupe mentioned earlier are so different from the originals that they are no more than "tribute" balls. Any novice could tell the original and the copy apart. It's safe to say that Rupe knows who is copying his originals, where the copies are manufactured and what they are being made of.

The issue is proof. Can you prove that "iusedtoberich's" balls are forgeries? If not, why spread an unprovable myth?

 

[SUPERSTAR]

To the best of my knowledge, the technology for phenolic resin pool ball manufacturing came to the far east in the last +/- ten years. The bumblebees Rupe mentioned earlier are so different from the originals that they are no more than "tribute" balls. Any novice could tell the original and the copy apart. It's safe to say that Rupe knows who is copying his originals, where the copies are manufactured and what they are being made of.

The issue is proof. Can you prove that "iusedtoberich's" balls are forgeries? If not, why spread an unprovable myth?

So the question is, are the bumblebee balls manufactured as if they were Raschigs? Or are they marketed as crappy knock offs because they are so terrible?
Betcha people who don’t know better, would buy them as originals.
Tribute is just another word for copy.

I can say that every original set of Raschigs I ever played with 30 years ago, had a black dot on the cue ball.
Never saw any sets being used or sold with anything other than the black dot on the cue ball. It was unique to them and them only. Everyone who played with them knew this.
So for the sake of argument, let’s just assume that iusedtoberich’s set for all intensive purposes is original.
His cueball, IS NOT.

Did you ever play with or come across multiple sets of
Raschigs playing pool in pool halls across the country?

If you did, what was on the cueball? A dot? Or was it a circle?

I am assuming that if you don’t KNOW it was a dot, that your experience with Raschigs back in the day, was limited.

It’s not a myth. It’s fact to anyone who knows.

Proving that though, is a different thing altogether. There is no way to prove it.
Unless a bunch of old-head pool players saying it was a dot, vs the people who have no clue, counts.

iusedtoberich isn’t going to be bent out of shape about whether his Raschigs are real or not. If anything, if he actually cares about it, he’s probably curious as to what the truth is.
And he probably wouldn’t have had a clue that Raschigs came with a specific cueball that is different than the one he has, unless I chimed in and alerted him to it.

 

[Boxcar]

Do you know for a fact that every cue ball Raschig ever made and sold had a dot on it?

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Do you know for a fact that every cue ball Raschig ever made and sold had a dot on it?

Do you know for a fact that they didn’t have one on it?
No one but the people involved at Raschig knows that.

Don’t see why it’s an issue though.
It’s not like anyone is auctioning off a set of balls for a million dollars.
But if you played pool with enough sets of these balls in various locations like I did, you would assume that the dot was the standard.
This thread marks the first time in 30+ years that I have ever seen a set of Raschigs with anything other than a dot. That’s why it jumped out as me, because it is a marked difference than my experiences in years of playing pool.

I could very well be 100% wrong.
But I doubt it.

It’s not like anyone is in a rush to declare their set a bunch of knock offs either.

We all know how that works in the pool world. Someone would rather lie and say it’s all original or part of a secret final manufacturing run that only they were privy to, than EVER admit that they were the idiot who proudly bought a set or sets of knockoffs that they thought were real.

 

[Boxcar]

Do you know for a fact that they didn’t have one on it?
No one but the people involved at Raschig knows that.

Do the the cue balls in Raschig dedicated 9-ball sets have dots?

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Do the the cue balls in Raschig dedicated 9-ball sets have dots?

I have never seen a specific 9 ball dedicated set of balls ever, so I couldn’t tell you.
i am assuming those sets are only 9 balls and the cueball? Is that what is pictured earlier in the thread?
Ive only seen the full rack set of balls like I pictured in my 1st response in this thread.

 

[Boxcar]

When I grew up, if it wasn't Hyatt or Brunswick, it wasn't a pool ball. The first pool hall I ever played in (right around 1960 or so) had composition balls and they were in perfect shape with great color. I couldn't any more tell you whether each cue ball was clean, or had black diamonds, or whatever. I didn't even know there was such a thing as Raschig until about 20-some years ago. Truthfully, the only cue ball I really remember is a Brunswick (Hyatt) Blue Circle ball, which I loved. The early 60s were when the Gold Crown tables made their debut. Most of the sets that Brunswick sold with GC tables were Gold Crown pocket balls, and that cue ball didn't have a mark on it.

I'm grateful to have had you share your experiences with Raschig balls. I think they are nice, but truthfully, I don't think they're all that and a bag of chips. Take a look at the ten ball in the two sets that the members posted earlier. On one of the balls, the ten is fairly well oriented to the circle and the stripe, but the other one is crooked and off-center to the white circle and way out of square with the stripe. Since I've become more aware of Raschig balls, I've seen other examples of that as well. Hell, I don't even want to play pool unless the stuff is made in The USA.

I've enjoyed this exchange, Superstar. It's getting late back East and I really need my beauty rest. Keep it between the white lines.

Best regards,

Boxcar

 

[SUPERSTAR]

When I grew up, if it wasn't Hyatt or Brunswick, it wasn't a pool ball. The first pool hall I ever played in (right around 1960 or so) had composition balls and they were in perfect shape with great color. I couldn't any more tell you whether each cue ball was clean, or had black diamonds, or whatever. I didn't even know there was such a thing as Raschig until about 20-some years ago. Truthfully, the only cue ball I really remember is a Brunswick (Hyatt) Blue Circle ball, which I loved. The early 60s were when the Gold Crown tables made their debut. Most of the sets that Brunswick sold with GC tables were Gold Crown pocket balls, and that cue ball didn't have a mark on it.

I'm grateful to have had you share your experiences with Raschig balls. I think they are nice, but truthfully, I don't think they're all that and a bag of chips. Take a look at the ten ball in the two sets that the members posted earlier. On one of the balls, the ten is fairly well oriented to the circle and the stripe, but the other one is crooked and off-center to the white circle and way out of square with the stripe. Since I've become more aware of Raschig balls, I've seen other examples of that as well. Hell, I don't even want to play pool unless the stuff is made in The USA.

I've enjoyed this exchange, Superstar. It's getting late back East and I really need my beauty rest. Keep it between the white lines.

Best regards,

Boxcar

It’s 4 in the morning here.
Bedtime isn’t till 9am

 

[rexus31]

Here's my take on the forgery discussion.

SUPERSTAR: You are basing your assessment on a cue ball that could very well be a cue ball from a different manufacturer all together. Just because the cue ball doesn't appear to be original doesn't mean the rest of the set is fugazi. It is very plausible someone swapped out the cue ball at some point. I've seen several Aramith Tournament sets for sale with mismatched cue balls. Does that mean those are fake too? Also, your cue analogy is apples to oranges. Spinning a cue on a lathe is child's play compared to making phenolic pool balls.

IF (big if) a Chinese manufacturer were counterfeiting Raschig balls, don't you think they would be/would have been readily available on eBay. Amazon, Alibaba, etc.? To Boxcar's point, the tooling and R&D to pull off a fake set worthy of discussion with some of the world's foremost phenolic pool ball collectors is a massive undertaking. IF (big if) a manufacturer were to go through the expense to do this, they'd be selling them all over the place to recoup the initial investment and to make a profit. I don't recall ever seeing a huge flood of Raschig balls in the marketplace. If I did, I most certainly would have purchased a set. No one is pulling off fake pool balls to produce a small quantity and lurk in the shadows. There are knock off Aramith sets all over Alibaba and Amazon. If there were Raschig sets, they'd be there right along side them.

 

[Boxcar]

Here's my take on the forgery discussion.

SUPERSTAR: You are basing your assessment on a cue ball that could very well be a cue ball from a different manufacturer all together. Just because the cue ball doesn't appear to be original doesn't mean the rest of the set is fugazi. It is very plausible someone swapped out the cue ball at some point. I've seen several Aramith Tournament sets for sale with mismatched cue balls. Does that mean those are fake too? Also, your cue analogy is apples to oranges. Spinning a cue on a lathe is child's play compared to making phenolic pool balls.

IF (big if) a Chinese manufacturer were counterfeiting Raschig balls, don't you think they would be/would have been readily available on eBay. Amazon, Alibaba, etc.? To Boxcar's point, the tooling and R&D to pull off a fake set worthy of discussion with some of the world's foremost phenolic pool ball collectors is a massive undertaking. IF (big if) a manufacturer were to go through the expense to do this, they'd be selling them all over the place to recoup the initial investment and to make a profit. I don't recall ever seeing a huge flood of Raschig balls in the marketplace. If I did, I most certainly would have purchased a set. No one is pulling off fake pool balls to produce a small quantity and lurk in the shadows. There are knock off Aramith sets all over Alibaba and Amazon. If there were Raschig sets, they'd be there right along side them.

Very well said. You have succinctly and successfully made the point.

 

[boogieman]

I was exceedingly fortunate to find twenty sets of Raschigs that had been languishing in a Jukebox warehouse in Mainz some years ago. The company had been supplying the balls to pool halls around the city.

Oh my! I wish I could just find one set, that had to be a surreal feeling to find that many in one place!