Rate my Game... 10b Ghost with commentary

[sjm]

I think the angle management issues are subtle in some cases. For example, I didn't like your approach on the two ball at 35:18. As you noted, that was a bad decision.

To me, the angle you should have been trying to get on the three was nearly straight so that you could draw up the long rail off of the three behind the eight onto the four. What you needed to protect against is forcing yourself to play around the five and nine as you shot the three. You appeared to hit an outside english stun draw and while you probably feel you made an error in speed, I think you also made an error in stroke selection, because without outside english, you won't end up on the wrong side of the three.

Even though you might have succeeded the way you played it, your stroke selection hurt your chances. Forgive me for nitpicking, but this is an error in pattern building. It wasn't critical to be near the three, but you needed the right angle to play the best pattern, and your approach to getting it was less than ideal.

 

[The_JV]

I think the angle management issues are subtle in some cases. For example, I didn't like your approach on the two ball at 35:18. As you noted, that was a bad decision.

To me, the angle you should have been trying to get on the three was nearly straight so that you could draw up the long rail off of the three behind the eight onto the four. What you needed to protect against is forcing yourself to play around the five and nine as you shot the three. You appeared to hit an outside english stun draw and while you probably feel you made an error in speed, I think you also made an error in stroke selection, because without outside english, you won't end up on the wrong side of the three.

Even though you might have succeeded the way you played it, your stroke selection hurt your chances. Forgive me for nitpicking, but this is an error in pattern building. It wasn't critical to be near the three, but you needed the right angle to play the best pattern, and your approach to getting it was less than ideal.

Thanks for adding some comments Stu,

I had to review that shot you're focusing on, and although there are a few ways to play that 2/3, I don't consider what I did a bad decision, and couldn't find a spot that I noted it as such. Regardless it's a great example of a shot that exposes the tendancies of a player. As I said several times early in the video, I am the sort of player that perfers to shoot through the ball, rather then dragging / drawing.

The 3 could be played a few ways. The only one that runs into the traditional shot line to the 4, is your preference. So purely based on nothing more than that, I have to concede that it's probably the best choice. That said, working the CB with natural angles to the 4 is so easy in this example, and although relying on draw to come out on the bottom side of the 8 isn't difficult either, it's still a "trick shot", so my last choice.

The other option is to run the CB straight up table after the 2 and go back and forth (long rail - long rail) from the 3 to the 4. This is probably what I would have expected most strong shooters to do. Again, this 3 to 4 shot is using running english and taking advantage of the massive landing zone below the 8.

Lastly, is what I failed to do. As noted in the video, I had already hit similar shots earlier in the set so I felt especially comfortable going this way. Even though I came up a hair short on the angle off the 3, I still had way more than enough to do what I wanted. My mistake was that I hit the 3 thick. I probably could have gotten away with the amount of siding, but more would have been better. Less, as you suggested, would have buried me into the cluster I fell behind. I did manage to create a path to clear that cluster but as we know I under hit it. If I got the CB to the long rail from the 2, the 3 would have presented more like the previous shots, and I have zero doubt that woud have been the 7-2 win for me.

Pattern building is an interesting chestnut. While there are criteria that some may adhere to as best practices. Using your suggestion to drag around and below the 8 as an example. There's other things to consider that don't necessarily negate an option, but fly in the face of what's working for a player in the moment.

Thanks again for the comments. I appreciate it...

I honestly thought this thread would get more traction. Oh well...

 

[sjm]

The other option is to run the CB straight up table after the 2 and go back and forth (long rail - long rail) from the 3 to the 4. This is probably what I would have expected most strong shooters to do. Again, this 3 to 4 shot is using running english and taking advantage of the massive landing zone below the 8.

That's my clear number two choice, and it's my fall back if I don't get straight enough on the three to pull it up the long rail to the four. As you note, it's still a shot on which one expects a high success rate, and even the way you did play it will usually succeed.

There can be no denying that this is a layout with more than one option, and preference can play a part here, but that said, two critical attributes of the best pattern play are a) not playing across obstructions when you don't have to, and b) playing long into the line of the next angle needed. Doing so with great consistency is what differentiated guys like Buddy Hall, Ralf Souquet, Kim Davenport. Wu Jiaqing and Jim Rempe from the pack in their pattern play. The payoff for masterful angle management is only occasional, but a strict adherence to the principles by which they played does offer slightly more breathing room in speed control over the long haul, and dividends will be reaped from such technical excellence.

 

[The_JV]

There can be no denying that this is a layout with more than one option, and preference can play a part here, but that said, two critical attributes of the best pattern play are a) not playing across obstructions when you don't have to, and b) playing long into the line of the next angle needed.

Definitely can't argue against that. My only defence is that I had played simliar shots earlier in the set with success and simply felt more comfortable going the route I did. The reality is, I hit it real bad. I knew it would be a shot of discussion, and even more so because I ended up snookering myself....lol

 

[hang-the-9]

So here is the my most recent attempt at the 10 ball Ghost that I have also posted within the "Ghost Challenge" thread. There typically isn't much conversation within that thread about a person's game (or lack there of...lol), so I thought I'd openly request criticism from the forum and see what input others may have on my game.

Feel free to make any remarks you wish. I can take it... Thanks and enjoy...

Did not watch most of it, but I could tell from the first few shots you know what you are doing.

From the fact you were able to run 100 balls, even on a home table you are used to, shows that you are in the A level of players, maybe A+.

No idea what your Fargo rating is, if you have one, but I would say it would be in the 650 range or higher.

 

[The_JV]

Did not watch most of it, but I could tell from the first few shows you know what you are doing.

From the fact you were able to run 100 balls, even on a home table you are used to, shows that you are in the A level of players, maybe A+.

No idea what your Fargo rating is, if you have one, but I would say it would be in the 650 range or higher.

Thanks for the comments,

I managed to repeat a century run, so I feel a little more confident with my 14.1 abilities. Still rely a little too much on shot making honestly, but hey if you can do it, shouldn't you lean on it...?...lol

I only have a prelim fargo at the moment from a single tourney (676, robust@62). Not a lot of places report in my area, and not much pool going on at this moment anyways

 

[tim913]

Don't take the criticism the wrong way, you have a strong game and players would not take the time to critique each shot if they didn't think so. They would just say something like keep practicing, find a local pro in your area, work on the fundamentals, etc. I've been places where a pro would come in with their coach and he was a lot harder on them than anyone has been on you, you want them to be! You can beat some pros with your game, I've beaten some pros with my game in the past, I'm a senior citizen now. You have a very strong game where you're down to inches here and there, most people never reach that level.

 

[SBC]

You shoot well.

Like us all , you need a little tighter position, getting the very best angles to keep runs going. You came with some good recovery shots. Take the effort to plan out 3 or 4 balls ahead.

 

[hang-the-9]

Thanks for the comments,

I managed to repeat a century run, so I feel a little more confident with my 14.1 abilities. Still rely a little too much on shot making honestly, but hey if you can do it, shouldn't you lean on it...?...lol

I only have a prelim fargo at the moment from a single tourney (676, robust@62). Not a lot of places report in my area, and not much pool going on at this moment anyways

Well you made me feel good about my skill estimating LOL To run 100, even a few times, that 676 ratings seems pretty correct to me, my feeling is that unless you are in the 650 range, you won't be running 100 balls on any equipment.

And I wonder if I can tell your speed by the first 3 shots you took, and a comment about a 100 ball run by someone else, why all those idiots running leagues can't properly handicap players they watch shoot for years LOL

 

[SBC]

Running out is all about giving yourself 95%or better shots as much as possible. The minute you shoot three 80% shots in a row, your odds of making all 3 is 50/50. It's nice to be able to come with tough shots, but the real champions don't need to because their cueball is immaculate.

 

[The_JV]

Don't take the criticism the wrong way, you have a strong game and players would not take the time to critique each shot if they didn't think so.

Oh I'm not... I enjoy the critque actually. I hope the 'defence' of my shot choices isn't being looked as being overly sensitive. I just perfer the conversation about specifics rather than "shoot smarter"...lol.

 

[sjm]

Definitely can't argue against that. My only defence is that I had played simliar shots earlier in the set with success and simply felt more comfortable going the route I did. The reality is, I hit it real bad. I knew it would be a shot of discussion, and even more so because I ended up snookering myself....lol

You raise a significant point here.

There are times when you can go outside the "technically perfect" playbook to play into your own comfort zone. The pros do it, although the best pattern players do it quite a bit less often than the others. This said, your goal needs to be to get so comfortable with every stroke, every path, and every cue ball speed that you are rarely inclined to deviate from textbook pattern play.

You have a strong game and a good attitude. Stay the course, JV.

 

[The_JV]

You shoot well.

Like us all , you need a little tighter position, getting the very best angles to keep runs going. You came with some good recovery shots. Take the effort to plan out 3 or 4 balls ahead.

Thank you and thanks for commenting....

See there's the thing. I really didn't scramble all that much. Like I think I mentioned earlier, there were three spots were things didn't go as planned and two of those resulted in me attempting something only because I wanted to see if I could pull it off....lol

 

[The_JV]

You raise a significant point here.

There are times when you can go outside the "technically perfect" playbook to play into your own comfort zone. The pros do it, although the best pattern players do it quite a bit less often than the others. This said, your goal needs to be to get so comfortable with every stroke, every path, and every cue ball speed that you are rarely inclined to deviate from textbook pattern play.

You have a strong game and a good attitude. Stay the course, JV.

I will say that I did deviate from my normal game in one instance during that set. That was the 1 to the 2 in which I end up directly sewering while swinging at the 2. Normally I would have placed the CB on the other side of the 1 and played two rails with draw to get on the 2 ball. I wanted to try going forward, and it cost me.

The self induced snooker we have been discussing was just a flat out bad shot. We all have them. Hindsight is always 20/20 as they say....lol.

 

[alstl]

I watched part. Did you move the 2 ball after the break?

 

[Gatz]

As many have mentioned, better cue ball. It's currently my biggest issue in rotation games. Always just a little too far or not enough. But, because I know this, I do my best to give myself the proper angle to at least get to the next ball.

 

[SBC]

Thank you and thanks for commenting....

See there's the thing. I really didn't scramble all that much. Like I think I mentioned earlier, there were three spots were things didn't go as planned and two of those resulted in me attempting something only because I wanted to see if I could pull it off....lol

I only watched rack 1.

The position you had on the 3 was too steep.

You ended up near the long rail and made the 4, but had to play 2 rail shape on the 5 which could have gone bad. With the cueball towards center table you could make the 4, hit the rail and play the 5 in the opposite corner. Then be easy on the 6.

Just minor things, but they keep runs going.

 

[7stud]

I noted that your back leg is straight just like snooker players however this is not efficient in pool, but again if you're not having backpain then ignore this comment and again if you are actual having back pain then this is the reason and I swear I've seen it over and over during my life with pool player. Most of them want to straighten this back leg for god knows why, properly they love watching snooker and in their mind they think that making the back leg straight is cool and how it is suppose to be.

However, in pool I always advocate bending both knees - even if slightly it will help and your back will thank you. Think of deadlifts and how you will help the back by bending both knees, it's the same.

In Mark Wison's book "Play Great Pool", in Chapter 3 titled "Stance and Setup" on p. 18 he says,

There are two basic acceptable stances: The classic English stance has the right knee locked straight, and the left knee slightly and comfortably bent. The American stance has both knees locked straight. Both stances distribute the body's weight fairly equally on both legs; choose whichever version suits you the best after experimentation.

Some physical issues may preclude a player from assuming an "ideal" stance. Players with back problems, obesity, or other physical handicaps may need to bend both knees to avoid pain; if so, they must be extra diligent in avoiding head and body movement.

So, it seems that a straight back leg is part of US pool teaching. Based on the last sentence, Mark Wilson believes that bending both knees can lead to head and body movement during the stroke. In one of Dr. Dave's videos, he advocates bending both knees if it's more comfortable for you. Mark Wilson pointedly states that comfort is not the goal of a stance. He says that a new stance will always feel uncomfortable, but with practice it will feel comfortable over time.

Mark Wilson is also well aware of the open snooker stance and that snooker players are the best cuists in the world, but he claims that,

for obtaining the long power strokes that are often required in pool(but usually not required in snooker), the orthodox stance described in this chapter is preferable.

The orthodox stance that Mark Wilson advocates is:

1. Right foot toeing the shot line, but not across the shot line, and 90 degrees to the shot line.
2. Left foot parallel to the shot line, further from the shot line than the right heel, and at least shoulder width apart from the right foot.

As a result, your left foot will be positioned at a right angle to your right foot.

if I don't make the habit of resting my fore arm on the table for a while, my shoulder tires.

Mark Wilson advocates keeping your bridge arm straight and not letting your forearm touch the table. He claims that a bent arm won't resist head and body movement as much. I was watching the Rollie videos, and I noticed that one of the pros at Society Billiards, Hunter Lombardo, told Rollie to relax and bend his elbow so that it was resting on the table.

 

[The_JV]

I only watched rack 1.

The position you had on the 3 was too steep.

You ended up near the long rail and made the 4, but had to play 2 rail shape on the 5 which could have gone bad. With the cueball towards center table you could make the 4, hit the rail and play the 5 in the opposite corner. Then be easy on the 6.

Just minor things, but they keep runs going.

Fish eye lense may be playing tricks on you.... I'm assuming the first rack since you only watched one.

Position on the 3 was exactly as intended. The admittingly steep angle on the 4 was caused by the rather dead rail. This was spoken about in the vid prior to the shot. If you care to watch it again, this is clearly evident.

I'm going to have to flat out disagree on your approach on this one. In fact having to use the 2 rails into the 5 ball the way I forced to, was quite literally the best way to get on the 5 and subsequent 6 regardless of the position on the 4. My original intent (prior to dead rail angle) was to use the single short rail and play the 5 in the same side pocket from close to the same position. There's really no upside to playing the 5 into the corner.

Truth is, I got a little half assed when potting the 5. Would have been very easy to go into the 10 in a more solid manner which have turned the rest of the rack into a series of rolling shots.

I do appreciate the comments.

 

[The_JV]

Mark Wilson advocates keeping your bridge arm straight and not letting your forearm touch the table. He claims that a bent arm won't resist head and body movement as much. I was watching the Rollie videos, and I noticed that one of the pros at Society Billiards, Hunter Lombardo, told Rollie to relax and bend his elbow so that it was resting on the table.

I don't doubt Mark's know how... However, anything that helps stablize a player within their stance shouldn't be frowned upon. I rather rest my fore arm on the table and have a heathy shoulder even if it means flying in the face of his teachings.

Thanks for adding to the conversation.