recut vs veneer points

[Cornerman]

if you infered that i meant recut to be a labor-saving procedure, then you will see that i later clarified my point. what i meant was that recuts provide a means to circumvent the need to hide miters in veneerwork. .

I guess everyone has their own opinion on what is aesthetically pleasing. I'm at some kind of loss knowing how hard some of these cuemakers have tried and succeeded in coming up with methods to do something that is both constructurally challenging as well as aesthetically challenging. To say that they're doing them to circumvent anything is off base. It's a different look, a different reasoning, a different method, and a different appreciation. And a lot of purchasers hold recuts in higher regard than stacked veneers. Similar to a lot of purchasers holding full-spliced cues in higher regard to half-spliced.

Fred

 

[bruin70]

I guess everyone has their own opinion on what is aesthetically pleasing. I'm at some kind of loss knowing how hard some of these cuemakers have tried and succeeded in coming up with methods to do something that is both constructurally challenging as well as aesthetically challenging. To say that they're doing them to circumvent anything is off base. It's a different look, a different reasoning, a different method, and a different appreciation. And a lot of purchasers hold recuts in higher regard than stacked veneers. Similar to a lot of purchasers holding full-spliced cues in higher regard to half-spliced.

Fred

i'm probably just one of those guys railing against that "special something" that's been lost because advanced equipment has provided yet another way. and the aesthetic lost, as you say, differs from person to person.

 

[RSB-Refugee]

I did not see costs mentioned, sorry if I missed it. Isn't it more expensive to do re-cuts, than mitered veneers, as far as materials used? I like both styles, myself.

Tracy

 

[JoeyInCali]

i'm probably just one of those guys railing against that "special something" that's been lost because advanced equipment has provided yet another way. and the aesthetic lost, as you say, differs from person to person.

From DZ's site.
I took the liberty since anyone can see it anyway.
http://dzcues.com/veneers.htm
I still don't get the contention that recuts are easier.
but i've never seen bad recuts.

Maybe b/c they were too emabarrassed to show it?
I know there's a lot of more dust created with recuts.
First recuts I ever saw was done by Judd Fuller in his shop on his old mill.
Absolutely work of art and labor of love. Judd would epoxy the first point stock. Then turn it then go back and cut again. A ton of dust was created to make those recuts. Not that creating dust is of any value.
Now the thickness of the "re-points" aren't pre-determined like veneers.
He messes one point, firewood.
Judd and Trudy make some of the prettiest old-fashioned milled and panto'd wands.

 

[Cue Crazy]

Logic tells me not to use V-blocks.
Cut the groove for the aluminum holder with the router setup already on rails.
Make the rounter height adjustable following a taper bar. Height ( gravity dependent ) determines the thickness of each point.

Yeah, I admitt I can think of a few better ways that add support to the entire lenth the more I think about it.
I'm thinking about a whole different type setup now that may be really easy to preload your points before putting them in the forearm, but I don't know for sure If It's suitable.

I like Bob's method for traditonal split veneers. It seems easy enough with the right grind on the cutter, and not having to make a jig to suit the angle of a straight bit.

 

[bruin70]

You got an "Amen" to that Fred!!! I believe if there was a better understanding of how points are done, and the level of accuracy required to do them correctly, there would be a greater appreciation of them. All it takes is one tiny error dialing in a cut and you've lost time, material, and not to mention possibly being late finishing the job. Even an error of a few thousandths of an inch can make a big difference.

And it doesn't end there. There's still the matter of joining the forearm to the handle. If that isn't done correctly, all the work and attention put into cutting in your points is completely wasted.

Sometimes makes me wonder why I didn't pursue being a Fireman like I wanted to be when I was a kid. Nahhh! Wouldn't trade this for anything.

but errors can be encountered in any procedure , can they not? cue building "hazzards" aren't in the sole domain of recut points. some cuemakers know how to avoid 'em or are so good they don't encounter them, others don't.

i mean, here's what it all sounds like to me,,,the guy who can draw circles will say they're easy to do, and the guy whose circles end up looking like pretzels will say they're difficult. gutierrez is a master who can do his thing with one hand tied behind his back where some other cuemaker would be left scratching his head....and maybe bender does his recuts in one quarter the time everyone else does.

 

[issycue]

wow! i've enjoyed all the commentary on this topic. One thing is for sure, there is a lot of work that goes into making these cues, and hearing from the makers helps me value the hard work even more. Thanks so much for keeping these cue building ideas on the cutting edge.

Here's some other thoughts I have... when I look at Skip Weston's or even Mike Bender's re-cut points, fore example, I especially enjoy seeing the curl in the woods they use to build the inner points. Since the 'outer' points are cut/recut from the same stock, the curl/patterns match from point edge to point edge, only breaking accross the 'inner' concentric point wood. That's something aesthically pleasing to me.

On the other hand, seeing beautifully mitered veneers (the Capone cue I had is one good example), also reflects, imho, the dedication the cuemaker has to the craft.

There are many cuemakers, crafters out there who do fantastic work, and the only reason I mention Bender, Weston and Capone are that they are the cuemakers I personally have experience with.

I guess my tastes are traditional as I like to see spliced rather than cnc'd cues. And, perhaps I'm too much of a perfectionist as I judge cuemakers on how sharp/even their point construction is.

One thing is for sure, and I've expressed this to many people who question why I have such a fascination and appreciation for pool cues, is that designing and constructing these cues are truly the work of highly gifted artisans. Not only does the cue have to look good, but it also has to follow the ever improving engineering standards that make the cue play well. Would you guys agree?

Anyway, thanks everybody for the enlightening discussion so far.

 

[Koop]

Here's another twist on recuts for you to think about if you're so inclined. Recut points, and dyed veneer, can be used in the same cue.

Ala Dennis Searing. I know Dennis likes to use an ebony recut for the outer veneer but will provide any combo inside.

 

[classiccues]

but errors can be encountered in any procedure , can they not? cue building "hazzards" aren't in the sole domain of recut points. some cuemakers know how to avoid 'em or are so good they don't encounter them, others don't.

i mean, here's what it all sounds like to me,,,the guy who can draw circles will say they're easy to do, and the guy whose circles end up looking like pretzels will say they're difficult. gutierrez is a master who can do his thing with one hand tied behind his back where some other cuemaker would be left scratching his head....and maybe bender does his recuts in one quarter the time everyone else does.

Hey I would like to see examples of BOTH styles from ALL cuemakers that posted here.

JV

 

[buddha162]

i see the aesthetic of veneers,,,i don't see the aesthetic of recuts. perfect recuts , imo, no matter what the procedural difficulties, seem to be a natural end result.

let's put it this way,,,,,,i've seen endless examples of bad(let's say not perfect) veneerwork, but i've never seen bad recuts.

I think I know what you're saying Bruin...and I tend to agree with your sentiments.

I too see many, many recut cues that are "perfect," which does not in any way undermine the degree of difficulty in their construction. I agree with Fred and others that as a veneering technique remilling is the more labor-intensive process.

But the huge number of subpar mitered veneer-work tells me that getting those pieces perfectly centered is something that separate the boys from the men in the cuemaking world, at least as far as point/veneer work goes.

Mottey, imo, does some of the best veneers around. His consistency is very, very impressive, not just with perfectly executed miters but also with how even each veneer lines up, point after point, all the way around the cue.

-Roger

 

[DaveK]

I'd even accept one for my birthday today

Ummmm.... HAPPY BIRTHDAY Tells' !

Dave, can take a hint

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

cut veneers........

A few of the cuemakers have decided to go the ebony veneer route because of the way the harder wood *point out* in the points. If that makes any sense!
Not saying it is the easiest or the only way..........just one that some have chosen.

 

[Cue Crazy]

Thanks Dave~~~39 & holdin (for several years)

Happy Birthday. I'm just a youngin still sompared to You you got 2 whole years on Me. Have a good one.

Greg

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

Happy Happy........

A good happy B Day to you also..........

Myself.........I don't understand why they call it Happy Birthday?

I'm always Happy to still be alive..........but never happy to be a year older!!

 

[Cue Crazy]

I always forget, does "several" mean something like 2 or 22?

Yeah I gotcha , nothing wrong with thinking young at all, but it mind as well only be 2 years, because I've already stopped counting. I would'nt of even known I was 37 unless someone reminded me. The last B-day that rolled around someone asked how old I was, and I said ya know that's a good question. I thought I was 35 or 36, but wished it was more like 25 or 26

 

[Koop]

Searing does a great job on his points!! No doubt about it.

I'd even accept one for my birthday today

Hey, happy birthday man.

Sorry, no Searing for you until I get one myself. Hope you understand.

 

[RSB-Refugee]

I don't mind working with them at all. Mitered, overlapped, doesn't matter
to me, whatever the customer wants I can and will do.

I saw a Predator sneaky pete, the wrapped with stainless joint type. It had both mitered and overlapped veneers in the same cue. I figured they were changing there style and the cue was made some time during the transition.

Tracy

 

[billiardbum]

And how do you propose holding that wood so it doesn't kick back and hit me in the family jewels?
I have to be careful. I only have one left. I lost the other one when someone's cueball flew off the table after breaking.

Or does you wife have it?

 

[billiardbum]

That's my preference when I want the first "veneer" black. Plus, the Ebony is more plentiful in 4/4. No need to use up all those nice turning squares.

Dave, Dave, Dave...is it veneers, recut or some magical thing you do with yours, because I know there is no glue lines on your magical veneers... Someday maybe I will figure it out

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

Nothing magical..........

Dave, Dave, Dave...is it veneers, recut or some magical thing you do with yours, because I know there is no glue lines on your magical veneers... Someday maybe I will figure it out

Just cut from a single piece of stock. No seams to glue = no gluelines.