Redefining the Definition of Backhand English

[Cornerman]

And "draw english" is an incorrect use

Says you. When a world champion who has played more pool than most says it, then what?

as was Hal's in "defining" "backhand english" as a method to return to center ball.

the method fits the definition. If you and I were on a table for me to show you, you'd easily agree. It's the method, not the final position. You can go past center to get to outside . The method of backhand English wouldn't have changed to "not backhand English" for that split second you got to center and then back to "backhand english" when you went past.

If the tip is at center ball it ceases to be english.

many players with a long history in this game have used the term "center English" but that's really neither here nor there. Mataya, Lisciotti, and Rempe have all used the terms. Agree or disagree, they've said the terms. I'm sure they heard them from somewhere.

I'm sure someone can find a video.

 

[Cornerman]

What's logical, to me, is that the term "back-hand english" should not necessarily imply the point from which the pivot occurs nor the purpose of the movement (other than to apply english).

Obviously, moving the tip off center to apply english can be done regardless of where the bridge hand is placed. If it is done by moving just the front hand, it's "front-hand english." If it's done by moving just the back hand, it's "back-hand english." Neither one requires any particular pivot point.

Now, when back-hand english is used to compensate for squirt, the pivot needs to be made from a certain location on the shaft (which might not be the natural pivot point, depending on the shot). And it has become common, I guess, for people to think of the term only in the context of squirt compensation. But, by the actual language, it is broader than that.

Exactly. It's this easy.

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[ScottK]

Says you. When a world champion who has played more pool than most says it, then what?

the method fits the definition. If you and I were on a table for me to show you, you'd easily agree. It's the method, not the final position. You can go past center to get to outside . The method of backhand English wouldn't have changed to "not backhand English" for that split second you got to center and then back to "backhand english" when you went past.

many players with a long history in this game have used the term "center English" but that's really neither here nor there. Mataya, Lisciotti, and Rempe have all used the terms. Agree or disagree, they've said the terms. I'm sure they heard them from somewhere.

I'm sure someone can find a video.

You're losing the deity complex argument.

 

[Cornerman]

You're losing the deity complex argument.

??? I didn't say Hal Houle was a world champion. Mataya, Rempe, and Liciotti are. So, please.

I have something to say about the deity complex accusation, but I'll get banned.

But, let me just say this... it is an insult that right now to someone like me and my personal beliefs cannot believe someone would even suggest this. T

Please read AtLarge's post. It conveys at the simplest what I'm saying.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"Back-Hand Pivot"

"Back-Hand Pivot" makes more sense.

And "draw english" is an incorrect use of the term "english" as was Hal's in "defining" "backhand english" as a method to return to center ball. If the tip is at center ball it ceases to be english. Certainly you don't want to argue Hal coined the term "english," or do you?

I don't disagree with you on the subject of pivot points, but you can't simultaneously advocate Hal's definition... well redefinition of the term "english" and scold people for redefining a term Hal popularized with said redefinition.

Decide if you want to have your cake or eat it.

 

[Cornerman]

My point is, "much ado about nothing." There's no denying that Hal deserves all the credit for the systems he created. But unless he trademarked certain phrases (which he didn't), he doesn't deserve any extra special treatment for loose tosses of words just because he has a loyal fan base.

Forget about Hal Houle. This isn't about Hal Houle. It's about people writing things not consistent with history.

Let's say it was SPF as taught by Randy G and his follower. Now if some goddamned idiot started writing about SPF and redefining it as Stop Pull Fade, you think I'd have a goddamn god complex if I try to correct it? Really? What are you thinking?

 

[Cornerman]

"Back-Hand Pivot" makes more sense.

Sounds good to me.

I would assume CJ that you'd have something to say if 10 years from now, people start writing articles and books about TOI, but redefining what it is by saying that you must use a specific pivot point, and then not give you the credit for popularizing the term and use on the internet to the masses.

In ten years, I'd back you up, but then they'd accuse me of having a deity complex and a man crush. Right?

 

[ScottK]

I know you'll want me to elaborate.

Says you. When a world champion who has played more pool than most says it, then what?

many players with a long history in this game have used the term "center English" but that's really neither here nor there. Mataya, Lisciotti, and Rempe have all used the terms. Agree or disagree, they've said the terms. I'm sure they heard them from somewhere.

I'm sure someone can find a video.

If a world champion used the term cornerman to refer to the pivot man in a circle jerk would you accept said definition?

the method fits the definition. If you and I were on a table for me to show you, you'd easily agree. It's the method, not the final position. You can go past center to get to outside . The method of backhand English wouldn't have changed to "not backhand English" for that split second you got to center and then back to "backhand english" when you went past.

I don't disagree that the motion is the same. However, the term english is used to refer to a contact point of the tip somewhere other than the vertical access of the cue ball. That's the definition, unless of course I'm misinformed, then by all means educate me.
Assuming I'm not, I'll say this: regardless of playing ability or accomplishments no one, not even those you mention, not Hal Himself gets to haphazardly redefine the terms we use. They're free to misuse them by saying things like "draw english" and "center english" and "backhand english" but they don't get to change the definition. And to suggest replacing the correct definition with those misuses lends more credence to that deity complex argument than I think you should want.

 

[Matt]

I assume this is regarding my post where I define backhand english here, or Dr. Dave's page discussing backhand english here.

In both places, the correct method of pivoting the cue by moving your back hand to create english while automatically compensating for squirt is described. In order for it to work correctly, the bridge must be at the pivot point of the cue when it is pivoted.

Apparently, Hal was on the right track, but didn't quite get there (or scoffed at the idea of a pivot point, as you say), so he may have popularized the term backhand english to describe an incomplete (and therefore incorrect) method of applying english and compensating for squirt at the same time. It sounds good and is easy to remember, so the term became well known and was used to apply to a method where your back hand is moved to pivot the cue.

Anyhow, whether Hal believed in the existence of a pivot point or not, the correct method involves bridging at a particular point on the cue while pivoting. Eventually, the correct method and catchy name were paired together on the internet and it stuck. In my opinion, it's better that way. Why waste a good, memorable term on a broken method?

Maybe if you go around and convince everyone that "backhand english" actually refers to a method that doesn't work, we'll call the working method something else and the term "backhand english" will just be a footnote in pool history, but it doesn't seem worth the effort. Maybe we should just specify which version we mean, as in "Hal Houle's broken backhand english" or "backhand english that works". I know it's a mouthful, but it would avoid confusion.

 

[ScottK]

??? I didn't say Hal Houle was a world champion. Mataya, Rempe, and Liciotti are. So, please.

I didn't say you said Hal was a champion. It's irrelevant. World champion or not they don't get to redefine the terms we use. See my post above.

I have something to say about the deity complex accusation, but I'll get banned.

But, let me just say this... it is an insult that right now to someone like me and my personal beliefs cannot believe someone would even suggest this. T

Please read AtLarge's post. It conveys at the simplest what I'm saying.

By asking us to accept their misuses of common terms you are putting them on a pedestal.

 

[Cornerman]

I assume this is regarding my post where I define backhand english here, or Dr. Dave's page discussing backhand english here.

In both places, the correct method of pivoting the cue by moving your back hand to create english while automatically compensating for squirt is described. In order for it to work correctly, the bridge must be at the pivot point of the cue when it is pivoted.

Apparently, Hal was on the right track, but didn't quite get there (or scoffed at the idea of a pivot point, as you say), so he may have popularized the term backhand english to describe an incomplete (and therefore incorrect) method of applying english and compensating for squirt at the same time. It sounds good and is easy to remember, so the term became well known and was used to apply to a method where your back hand is moved to pivot the cue.

Anyhow, whether Hal believed in the existence of a pivot point or not, the correct method involves bridging at a particular point on the cue while pivoting. Eventually, the correct method and catchy name were paired together on the internet and it stuck. In my opinion, it's better that way. Why waste a good, memorable term on a broken method?

Maybe if you go around and convince everyone that "backhand english" actually refers to a method that doesn't work, we'll call the working method something else and the term "backhand english" will just be a footnote in pool history, but it doesn't seem worth the effort. Maybe we should just specify which version we mean, as in "Hal Houle's broken backhand english" or "backhand english that works". I know it's a mouthful, but it would avoid confusion.

Good post Matt.

There are a couple of issues, but it's not really important to my points. Backhand english doesn't only work at one pivot point. Surely everyone who has studied it knows this. It also fails at many points once you get past a certain range (to the pocket, or an angle, etc.)

And yes, I absolutely clarify where I'm pivoting if it's important to the shot. I clarify, because "Backhand English" by itself never had a specific pivot point as part of the definition, so one would have to specify it.

Pivot Point Aiming might be the best thing to tack onto the old term of Backhand English.

 

[sfleinen]

Forget about Hal Houle. This isn't about Hal Houle. It's about people writing things not consistent with history.

Let's say it was SPF as taught by Randy G and his follower. Now if some goddamned idiot started writing about SPF and redefining it as Stop Pull Fade, you think I'd have a goddamn god complex if I try to correct it? Really? What are you thinking?

Man, Freddie, you are too damn close to this. My point was you have your face parked right up against the bark of a single tree, and can't see the forest.

Now, you're trying to spin this against me, because you take issue with the fact that I'm saying you're neck-deep in the deity complex and can't see it.

So what if someone starts a discussion about SPF meaning something else? Have you ever seen on Google "acronym so-and-so (disambiguation)" -- meaning, that acronym stands for more than one thing?

I apologize that I started you railing on this. My thoughts are that it's not like you to be myopic, seemingly because it's about one man "who took a lot of sh*t" here on these boards.

:shrug:
-Sean

 

[Cornerman]

I didn't say you said Hal was a champion. It's irrelevant. World champion or not they don't get to redefine the terms we use. See my post above.
.

You've turned this into a completely different discussion.

You seem to think that terms like "draw english" are wrong, yet they've been used by pool players for years. Only arrogance would make someone believe that "we" have it right. I don't say "draw english," but I've heard it enough times that it's can't be wrong unless I want to say every person who ever says it is wrong. And they've been around the block more than you or I.

 

[Cornerman]

Now, you're trying to spin this against me, because you take issue with the fact that I'm saying you're neck-deep in the deity complex and can't see it.

Jeesuz H ****ing christ. Of all the people in pool, i am the last person on earth that should be confused with someone who has a deity complex.

it has nothing to do with Hal Houle. it has to do with people after 15 + years redefining something that already had a definition. But history is history, and I'm pointing it out. Period.

 

[sfleinen]

Jeesuz H ****ing christ. Of all the people in pool, i am the last person on earth that should be confused with someone who has a deity complex.

Fine. I'll say no more on this, promise.

-Sean

 

[ScottK]

You've turned this into a completely different discussion.

You seem to think that terms like "draw english" are wrong, yet they've been used by pool players for years. Only arrogance would make someone believe that "we" have it right. I don't say "draw english," but I've heard it enough times that it's can't be wrong unless I want to say every person who ever says it is wrong. And they've been around the block more than you or I.

It isn't that they don't convey the same thought, just that they are not technically correct uses of the terms. It's exactly the same discussion. It's just the side of the debate you don't wish to recognize.

 

[ScottK]

Fine. I'll say no more on this, promise.

-Sean

Agreed.
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[TheThaiger]

Yer all freaking nuts. Its no wonder the vast majority of Americans cannot play pool with nonsense like this.

 

[Matt]

Backhand english doesn't only work at one pivot point.

Well...that all depends on what you're claiming it will accomplish. Backhand english as a method to offset squirt does work at only one pivot point. If you're claiming that backhand english also compensates to swerve and throw, then no, it's not going to work. The way it is explained in my post, it does work with one pivot point and you have to compensate for throw and swerve separately.

Pivot Point Aiming might be the best thing to tack onto the old term of Backhand English.

I think Jaden has already claimed that term to refer to any method that results in the pivot point coinciding with the shot line.

 

[Matt]

Yer all freaking nuts. Its no wonder the vast majority of Americans cannot play pool with nonsense like this.

...and here I was thinking it was just a lack of hard work and dedication.