Rehashing an old subject APA ratings

[Ron Padilla]

I started the other thread and then realized that I was not specific enough to garner more responses to I started this thread so that members here have a more clear idea of what I am trying to determine. It has been over 30 years or about when the handicap system was being introduced that I stopped playing pool, but decided this past December that I wanted to start playing again. Where I am currently located there is not much to choose from as far as places to play pool at, and of course they all push to have handicap tournaments to get people in the doors serve them beer and hold a 9 ball handicap tournament.

So I would like to know what the process should be to establish someone's initial handicap to compete in the tournaments?

Or is it left to the whim of the tournament director to come up with some number to assign a player, which in the case of this particular location everyone is rated very high then has to try and get it adjusted.

Along with the other questions I asked in the first thread, now this is not some major tournament but weekly so that a person can get out and compete, but I have seen where they do this to all new comers to the location to only drive the individual players away, just my ramblings, but as I mentioned there is not to much to select from other than more places with bar boxes. There is only 2 rooms with in 40 or 50 miles that have 1 9 footer in the place.

 

[donuteric]

If the player has played leagues or tournaments in the regions, it's generally a couple phone calls away to hear about the player's ability on the table. FargoRate is also used if the player has one, established or not. Because I'm interested to protect players who have been loyal, I normally start the first-timer at least a rank higher from what I can gather about the player.

If there's nothing known about the person, I start them as high as I can.

If handicapping is done by FargoRate, I also assign unknown players with higher ratings, and adjust the starter ratings accordingly if they're trending significantly downward.

If they want to leave because they think the initial assignment is unfair, I'll show them the door myself. I have better things to do in my life than to attend to players who choose to play in handicapped tournaments and complain about handicaps the first time we meet.

 

[Ron Padilla]

what methodology do you use to adjust after a player has been active for several months and or has never been told that membership in the national organization is required and or the particular tournament does not report to Fargo? Is it up to the person to ask so that the handicap can be adjusted or is it just at your whim and if the answer isn't liked you'll show them the door?

 

[poolpro]

I have run many local weekly tournaments.

If you know a player and the handicap system you are using, its no big issue to handicap.

If you don't know the player, then you should err on the high side.

What you don't want is a new player coming in and robbing your tournament.

You will ALWAYS have complaints whenever you have any handicapping. It is absolutely unavoidable.

It is usually the higher rated players complaining that they have to give up weight.

You have to remind people that it really is for the best of all players that more people have a chance to win.

If the same two guys keep winning every week, everyone else will feel they have no chance and will stop showing up. So sometimes I feel I have to remind the high rated players about that. Sure, you can win more often and more easily without the handicap, but would you rather win $40 or $150?

Or worse yet, there won't even be a tournament anymore.

As a tournament director, you just have to be as fair and consistent as possible and let it be what it will be.

As i said, there will always be complainers, no matter what.

 

[poolpro]

what methodology do you use to adjust after a player has been active for several months and or has never been told that membership in the national organization is required and or the particular tournament does not report to Fargo? Is it up to the person to ask so that the handicap can be adjusted or is it just at your whim and if the answer isn't liked you'll show them the door?

You keep saying "on a whim" as if it has no rhyme or reason. It seems as if you are only looking to find a way justify your gripe of a handicap.

If you know what you are doing, you can gauge it pretty accurately. I bet I could watch you play only a few games and put a number on you representing your level.

You watch the player play. You keep track of wins/losses and the score of matches and adjust accordingly.

Have you ever made a handicapped match for yourself? Have you ever adjusted that match after some play? Was it just "on a whim"? Or was it based on actual playing and the score?

Any national system is dependent on scoring match play and wins/losses and innings, etc.

Some are better than others, but none are perfect.

People's level of play can be very inconsistent as well. You have to factor all of it in, and even still, there can be a few inaccuracies in handicapping in ANY system.

It really does sound like you are just trying to justify a gripe you have about what your handicap is.

If you are saying that there are only a few places to play pool near you, it should be even easier. It would seem that anyone who plays at all should be know by somebody.

The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what I, or anyone else on her might say. It is solely up to the guy who is in charge of running the tournament.

You can choose to play or not to play. But its his tournament, so its his rules and his handicap rating. You can ask him to lower you, but he doesn't have to.

How fair of a system would it be if anyone could just ask to be lowered and have it done?

Keep in mind, every player would like an easier time winning their matches, not just you.

How far off do you feel your handicap is? Have you ever made any money back in any one of these events?

I remember an old saying that its usually a fair deal if both parties aren't happy. :thumbup:

 

[Ron Padilla]

I have run many local weekly tournaments.

If you know a player and the handicap system you are using, its no big issue to handicap.

If you don't know the player, then you should err on the high side.

What you don't want is a new player coming in and robbing your tournament.

You will ALWAYS have complaints whenever you have any handicapping. It is absolutely unavoidable.

It is usually the higher rated players complaining that they have to give up weight.

You have to remind people that it really is for the best of all players that more people have a chance to win.

If the same two guys keep winning every week, everyone else will feel they have no chance and will stop showing up. So sometimes I feel I have to remind the high rated players about that. Sure, you can win more often and more easily without the handicap, but would you rather win $40 or $150?

Or worse yet, there won't even be a tournament anymore.

As a tournament director, you just have to be as fair and consistent as possible and let it be what it will be.

As i said, there will always be complainers, no matter what.

You raise some good points with the idea being that it gives every person a chance to maybe make it to the winners circle, however if a person after several months never gets a chance to smell the money let alone take some home I would think that there would be some adjustment warranted and the records would substantiate that, especially if they are using a computer system, then the records should be no farther away than pushing a button?

Or is that a wrong impression of what the computer is used for during the tournament? And yes I agree with you there will always be complainers, but the jest of the process was to formulate a methodology for fairness what ever that is perceived to be in the world of pool!

 

[Bob Jewett]

In the past the APA has been extremely reluctant to let out details of their handicapping system to the extent that lawsuits were threatened against an LO who discussed the system online. I think it is their right to protect their methods and it might be a smart way to run their business.

You could try asking the APA directly. Or you could get an LO to spill the beans.

Personally, I prefer rating systems that are completely open so a player can see exactly why he has his particular rating. FargoRate is one such system. The method itself has been completely explained to the extent that if someone had all of the match data, he could calculate the ratings on his own if he were a clever enough programmer and had enough compute power available.

I have run handicapped leagues with a rating system like Fargo but simpler. After each week's play all of the players knew exactly what their ratings would be the following week with arithmetic so simple all of the players could do it.

 

[poolpro]

You raise some good points with the idea being that it gives every person a chance to maybe make it to the winners circle, however if a person after several months never gets a chance to smell the money let alone take some home I would think that there would be some adjustment warranted and the records would substantiate that, especially if they are using a computer system, then the records should be no farther away than pushing a button?

Or is that a wrong impression of what the computer is used for during the tournament? And yes I agree with you there will always be complainers, but the jest of the process was to formulate a methodology for fairness what ever that is perceived to be in the world of pool!

I can say that i never used a computer. I never needed to . I would be surprised if the guy running your tournament does.

So, you are saying that you have played in this event for months and never even came close to cashing in?

Okay, so lets be honest here. Is it really an incorrect handicap or are you just not performing well?

Look at other players in the event that and how they are rated. Be honest and decide where you should be compared to them.

Do you really feel that your handicap is too high? If it were up to you, what would you put your (Fair) handicap at?

Do you honestly feel that you cannot place in the top three with your current handicap if you played at the level near the top of your game? (Not your worst, but your best).

Do you think that would change if you were given a lowered (but honest and fair) handicap?

If so, what are you basing this on?

If you think it is warranted, you should mention it to the director. You should be able to say something like "Do you think you can review my rating? I mean I played so and so, he is rated the same as me and I lost 5-1"

Don't just ***** about your rating, have some examples that show an adjustment is warranted. Don't ask him to change your rating. Ask him to REVIEW your rating.

Don't be surprised if he says " Okay, but I watched you beat so and so pretty well, and he is the same rating as you!".

If he is doing his job, he has absolutely based your handicap on something.

What about other players? I bet there are many others who have not won or placed either? Should they lower their handicaps too? If they did, you would still need be in the same situation.

And also keep in mind, a fair handicap is not an easy match for either player. A fair handicap usually means that whoever is having the better day is supposed to win.

That being said, there will always be upsets and weird things that happen.

Also, keep in mind that a fair handicap is based on a players ability, which is how they are CAPABLE of playing on a good day. It surely doesn't represent how they WILL play in a given match.

I play in the APA. I often hear people complain about another players handicap. Especially when a player is shooting very well. They will be like "This guy is only a 5?!!!! Watch him, he is easily shooting as good as a 6!"

I will always remind them that if they are handicapped fairly and accurately, that it should be an average of their ability. If that is really true, that means that most days a SL5 will shoot like a SL5. But on some days, they may play more like a SL4, and on some days they will play more like a SL6. Amazingly, Nobody ever complains when the player is shooting under his handicap though.


Everyone is entitled to have both good days and bad days without an adjustment being necessary.

 

[jrctherake]

EVERYONE should play even, no matter the game or the players.

I know most do not like the no handicap idea and i do understand why. But handicapping is wrong in so many ways as seen through a lot of player's eyes. Its unfair to the players that pay their dues at the practice table yet rewards slackers that choose to "just play pool" while being to cheap to get lessons etc...etc.

I understand the room business depends on it as well..... neccessary evil to some.

Rake

 

[ctyhntr]

AFAIK, in APA starter handicap for men is SL 4 and SL 3 for women. League Operator can override that.

Poolpro gave good advice.
I sometimes run friendly tournament and I err on the high side for new players. You claim to be a C. I'll put you in as a B for the first tournament. Bumping up from C to B is 1 game in a race to 5. You come back next time, I'll drop you down to C+, then C. This is to protect my regular players from people trying to 'rob' the tournament.

 

[justadub]

AFAIK, in APA starter handicap for men is SL 4 and SL 3 for women. League Operator can override that.

Poolpro gave good advice.
I sometimes run friendly tournament and I err on the high side for new players. You claim to be a C. I'll put you in as a B for the first tournament. Bumping up from C to B is 1 game in a race to 5. You come back next time, I'll drop you down to C+, then C. This is to protect my regular players from people trying to 'rob' the tournament.

Currently its Males start as SL4 and Ladies start as SL2. That is about to change, and everyone will be starting at SL3 as a new player, takes effect first week of December.

LO's can start someone higher if they choose, i.e. a known player...

 

[Bob Jewett]

EVERYONE should play even, no matter the game or the players. ...

I assume that you feel it OK for there to be spots in money matches. Is that right?

If there are only 12 players that show up regularly for singles league matches, and a new guy is over 100 FargoRate points above the rest, how many sessions will the league last unhandicapped? Answer is below*.

Is it OK if there are partial handicaps and the 7 beats the 4 almost all the time? How about 2 out of 3?

* It will fall apart before the end of the session.

 

[Ron Padilla]

To pool pro, some of this is a direct correlation to myself but as much as it is to other players that I have watched that have gone in to this room and were rated very high and it was very obvious that it was incorrect but are not the type of person to sound off about it just take what is given and let it go at that. I am not that type of person and I also agree with the thought that there should not , any type of handy capping, I feel that you should be able to pays your money and takes your chances, That is what I plan on doing this coming January at the Derby.

Had I not quit playing years ago to begin again after a 35 year gap I might have been able to and I will repeat might have, been able to make it to a weak short stop level 35 years ago. But at 65 I have to admit to myself that my eyes, hands, and along with now a artificial knee will not perform like I once might have. But since coming back to the game I have nothing really to judge myself against due to the fact that when I walked in the door without even hitting a ball was rated at a nine. the system they use here is for 4 or 5 being the lowest and going to 13 as the highest I have heard, and yet to this point have not even been close to the money.

I was speaking with another gentleman and asked how his rating was established and he indicated that he had thrown a few balls out on the table with a few guys watching and commented that he should be rated as an 11. But you indicated that a process like that is fair and at the discretion of the LO or dare I say (whim) where is the fairness in that? I have also watched a young man who did not have a proper stance or the know how to hold or stroke a cue but wanted to play because his girlfriend plays, but I guess that is fair to (him) or the league because the house got more money in the coffers that day!

And yes just yesterday I mentioned after getting blown out after 2 sessions if my handicap would be lowered, now they use a computer for all tracking for the days event, so I have to imagine that all past performances are also kept in the computer, if not what is the real purpose of the computer? But I was told he didn't think I should be lowered, I don't think I mention that I was able to get my original number dropped from a 9 to an 8 and I think that based on my current abilities that another 1/2 game down would be appropriate, but I was told that he wasn't going to do it. So what I might do is just take my money and go else where but there are only 2 toilet bowls in this Podunk town, 1 is not in a great part of town and the other is even in a much worse part of town and being 65 with a fake knee I couldn't run from trouble if I needed to.

But it is when it is all said and done the state of the game is in far worse condition if this what younger people have to look forward to, although in the bigger cities I am sure that there are far nicer environments to go to and have fun and maybe even learn how to play the game.

 

[jrctherake]

I assume that you feel it OK for there to be spots in money matches. Is that right?

If there are only 12 players that show up regularly for singles league matches, and a new guy is over 100 FargoRate points above the rest, how many sessions will the league last unhandicapped? Answer is below*.

Is it OK if there are partial handicaps and the 7 beats the 4 almost all the time? How about 2 out of 3?

* It will fall apart before the end of the session.

That's why I said "I understand" in my original post.

I still "wish" everyone would play without spots in tournament play. At the VERY LEAST ...... all strangers should be rated as highest level and adjust down if needed. Not the other way aroumd.

I don't mean to sound unreasonable and I know all to well how and WHY the system is in place. That does not mean I have to like it.

Like I said............... it's a necessary evil.

As a 9, I get tired of getting beat to death by a freaking underrated 5, 6...etc.


As for private matches, I think the word "private" says it all. They can do whatever they want, it private.

 

[alstl]

In my experience an unknown will be given a high handicap in a tournament. They want regulars to have a good chance to finish in the money. After you play in a few tournaments they will adjust your handicap.

It is also my experience a high level player will outrun his handicap most of the time in 9 ball.

 

[hang-the-9]

I started the other thread and then realized that I was not specific enough to garner more responses to I started this thread so that members here have a more clear idea of what I am trying to determine. It has been over 30 years or about when the handicap system was being introduced that I stopped playing pool, but decided this past December that I wanted to start playing again. Where I am currently located there is not much to choose from as far as places to play pool at, and of course they all push to have handicap tournaments to get people in the doors serve them beer and hold a 9 ball handicap tournament.

So I would like to know what the process should be to establish someone's initial handicap to compete in the tournaments?

Or is it left to the whim of the tournament director to come up with some number to assign a player, which in the case of this particular location everyone is rated very high then has to try and get it adjusted.

Along with the other questions I asked in the first thread, now this is not some major tournament but weekly so that a person can get out and compete, but I have seen where they do this to all new comers to the location to only drive the individual players away, just my ramblings, but as I mentioned there is not to much to select from other than more places with bar boxes. There is only 2 rooms with in 40 or 50 miles that have 1 9 footer in the place.

If someone does not know you, it does not really matter what your first handicap is, if it's too low or too high it can be adjusted after one event. A good player would be able to give you a pretty close rating by watching you play for 5 minutes. As to exactly what your rating may be, that depends on the event.

You need to ask this question to whoever is running the tournament you want to play in. It is a bit useless to ask how we see it done, since we have no idea how THEY do it.

I have done handicapping for local tournaments, but how I set them up would be different from how others set them up. Different length races also have an affect on the handicap. For example if you normally play someone 5-4 but then it gets shortened to 4-3, the guy with the lower handicap is much better off with that race. All of a sudden their 20% spot is now a 25% spot and the shorter race in addition to that gives the weaker player more of a chance.

 

[Ron Padilla]

I don't think they will ever disclose what is their secret sauce so it is probably a useless pursuit, and I guess that I as well as a few others have the same thought that it leaves a lot to be desired, but when there isn't much else within a reasonable distance it leaves a lot to be desired and it is what it is.

 

[hang-the-9]

In my experience an unknown will be given a high handicap in a tournament. They want regulars to have a good chance to finish in the money. After you play in a few tournaments they will adjust your handicap.

It is also my experience a high level player will outrun his handicap most of the time in 9 ball.

There was a local handicapped event that was handicapped, it was 3-6. My son and I played in it as 6s, won it a bunch of times. It was changed to 2-5. Again most of the time one of us or both were in the finals. Eventually no D or C players would play anymore even with the handicap. Players need to try to learn to play better to win, it's simple as that. If you spend your time at the tables drinking, complaining about good players playing, talking about who is what handicap, playing the wrong shots over and over, practicing the wrong way over and over, that player will not win unless it gets so stupidly easy that they may as well say "hit this ball to the rail and you win."

One day I looked around, all the best players were practicing, playing with each other, talking about how to shoot shots, etc... The 2s and 3s that lost all the time where on the other side of the room talking about how unfair it was that the good players were allowed to play with them. Handicapping among most players is needed, at the same time it's a curse for most players that are serious. The league lifers use handicaps to cheat the system to win against good players and crush weaker ones by managing the system, the good honest players have to sit and watch the a-holes that cheat get away with getting spots from them.

 

[jrctherake]

In my experience an unknown will be given a high handicap in a tournament. They want regulars to have a good chance to finish in the money. After you play in a few tournaments they will adjust your handicap.

It is also my experience a high level player will outrun his handicap most of the time in 9 ball.

Yes, I almost always outrun the handicapped player but, it really sucks to be a 9 and play a 5 that should be a 7 or even am 8 at times.

I had a 6 put a 3 pack on me last week. Talk about sandbags galore..... the race was to 5. I lost the race 4 to 5.

6's shouldn't be running a 3 pack. Period....

Rake

 

[ctyhntr]

News to me and re-checked APA's website which still lists SL 4 for men and SL 3 for women.

Obviously, new players do not have a skill level established, so a standard starting method has been devised for new players. Statistics show that 73% of male players are SL4s and higher while 73% of female players are SL3s and below. Gentlemen will play their first match as a SL4; ladies will play their first match as a SL3. A League Operator is authorized to assign skill levels and lowest attainables to new players who are known highly skilled players or to players who have previously established skill levels in another format. If a player has previously established a skill level in the APA 9-Ball format, then he will begin play in 8-Ball with his current 9-Ball skill level.

https://poolplayers.com/faq-handicaps-calculated/

Can you cite your source?

Currently its Males start as SL4 and Ladies start as SL2. That is about to change, and everyone will be starting at SL3 as a new player, takes effect first week of December.

LO's can start someone higher if they choose, i.e. a known player...