Repeat Lesson Concern

DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ok, now, i hope i dont offend anyone here, i just want to get an honest opinion. perhaps this is not the best way to go about this, so if a moderator wants to delete this thread, so be it.

my concern is that i would love to take a lesson from a very prominent instructor/poster on here. however, my concern is that since i have taken so many lessons from three other instructors/players i might very well have a repeat on my hands. and that would be a somewhat costly repeat and leave me scratching my head, asking myself "Why Didnt I Know Better???"

i am sure you regular posters out there know what and who i am talking about, so i thought i would try and get some opinions.

sorry if i am being innappropriate.
DCP
 
In my oppinion your not being innappropriate, its a fair and honest question. And that being the case, you deserve a fair and honest answer.

Have you worked hard at incorporating what you have learned in the previoius lessons into your game? If so, then when you go back he will teach you different things. If you go back and are still struggling with the same problems he will at the very least spend some time going back over these problem areas.

I would suggest giving him a call. If we are talking about the same person he is VERY approachable and will listen to your questions and give you truthful answers.

Before you go you need to make a very hard look at your game. Are you falling short of your expectations because you dont know enough or because your failing to exacute what you already know?

Its true, we dont know what we dont know, so lessons are a great way to learn what we dont know. But if we dont apply what we have learned the lessons are worthless.

I have been out of the pool scene for a while now due to other things, so we havent talked in a while. I hope you understand what I am saying. Im not saying you HAVE to do every little thing exactly as your told. But IMO you must grasp the real reasons on why your being asked to do things a certain way and then decide if its worth a trade off to do them differently.

Hope things are going well.

Woody
 
I find it absolutely INCREDIBLE that you have taken ANY lessons.

You post constantly about shots you should shoot 100 times before posting.

How do I get from the 5 ball to the 6 ball. How about trying high, low, left, right, follow, draw, and then after 100 shots posting what happened. Oh wait I know why, cause it's easier to shoot it once and come here an ***** and moan about it.

If you have taken lessons from 3 different people and still struggle with the basic elements of the game then as hundreds of people before me have said, this game is not for you.
 
Seems to be a simple enough of a problem to solve to me: talk to the instructor first. Be honest and upfront about your concern and have a nice discussion before deciding to go forward.
 
mthornto said:
Seems to be a simple enough of a problem to solve to me: talk to the instructor first. Be honest and upfront about your concern and have a nice discussion before deciding to go forward.

yeah good advice

instructors are in a service industry, they want to teach you and make you 1)better and 2) happy. You have to tell them what you want and what youre looking for.....a good one will say either "yeah i can work with you and we can get there together" or "no i dont think im going to be able to help you to your satisfaction".....just be up front
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
.....and leave me scratching my head, asking myself "Why Didnt I Know Better???"

i am sure you regular posters out there know what and who i am talking about, so i thought i would try and get some opinions.


DCP

DCP,
I think you should forget about the lessons....UNLESS you are planning on changing your approach to improving. The lessons from the gurus are valuable only if your practice approach is diligent with stringent adherence to the lesson. Your practice should be regular and intense; focused on your weaknesses; with documentation included to monitor the progress. You must have a solid, repeatable, pressure resistant stroke as your first goal; work on more advanced material is practically wasted if done before your stroke is "grooved." Such practice is painfully dull at times (??most times for most people??), and you will have WAY less time to "run racks"; but improvement is inevitable.

If you are seeking a magic bullet; forget it...only a SERIES of lessons will do the trick.

There are only 2 ways to learn high level pool....the slow, difficult, and expensive way.....or the slow, difficult way. Lessons with the gurus is the cheapest way and will be way less expensive than gambling with the champs. There is no easy way. JMO.
 
If you can afford it, taking additional lessons should certainly be beneficial. But it's up to you to practice, reinforce and apply what you've learned. Sometimes, it may take more than one lesson before you get it right.:)
 
u12armresl said:
I find it absolutely INCREDIBLE that you have taken ANY lessons.

You post constantly about shots you should shoot 100 times before posting.

How do I get from the 5 ball to the 6 ball. How about trying high, low, left, right, follow, draw, and then after 100 shots posting what happened. Oh wait I know why, cause it's easier to shoot it once and come here an ***** and moan about it.

If you have taken lessons from 3 different people and still struggle with the basic elements of the game then as hundreds of people before me have said, this game is not for you.



I was thinking the SAME thing!!!!!!
 
Don't listen to the guys who are discouraging. Keep taking lessons, and take them from various people. Each instructor will have something different to say or add, and some of what they teach you will be wrong. Don't believe anything that any of them says, but listen carefully to them and try out things by yourself as soon as possible. If they taught you something that works, great. If it doesn't work, don't be completely surprised. Most of what they teach you will probably be O.K., but sometimes they make mistakes too. For example, each instructor (and probably everybody on this forum) would tell you that the cue ball caroms off an object on a tangent line at 90 degrees to the point of impact. The truth is that it NEVER comes off at 90 degrees, not even for a millisecond. It comes off at something like 88.5 degrees because of the coefficient of restitution of the ball material. But don't believe me either ... just go out and test it for yourself !
 
i'd weigh heavy on sticking to one instructor myself. it's got to be as imparitive for him to know you as you trusting him, atleast it should be. if you've tried someone who's reputable and no-nonsence, why not work on that. make a plan with him, have an objective and put weight on the thinking part of pool and CB positioning. build your stroke as willie mentioned as #1 then go from there. skip banking, kicking and rail systems and learn them from books.

that's my 2 bucks
 
I gotta admit, I'm a sucker for his "What do I do here" posts, although sometimes they do get annoying.

My issue with DCP is that he seems to ask for advice, gets it and doesn't do anything with it.

I have asked him questions to get a better feeling of his knowledge and he doesn't answer.

I rarely can't get the position I want, but in the rare occasion that it happens, I will practice the shot until I can get my shape consistently.

It seems that DCP doesn't do that.

Maybe its just me, but I don't think that DCP is as serious about improving as he is about his "What do I do here" postings!!

Russ.......
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
ok, now, i hope i dont offend anyone here, i just want to get an honest opinion. perhaps this is not the best way to go about this, so if a moderator wants to delete this thread, so be it.

my concern is that i would love to take a lesson from a very prominent instructor/poster on here. however, my concern is that since i have taken so many lessons from three other instructors/players i might very well have a repeat on my hands. and that would be a somewhat costly repeat and leave me scratching my head, asking myself "Why Didnt I Know Better???"

i am sure you regular posters out there know what and who i am talking about, so i thought i would try and get some opinions.

sorry if i am being innappropriate.
DCP


Our Pool School receives 100's of calls a year about our classes.

I like to fully explain what each day details. I also ask about previous instruction. The number 1 question I ask is "what do you want from school?".

Many of our students choose our one-on-one as opposed to our three day class. This suites their goals better.

If an inquiry has already studied under an SPF Family Instructor I might even suggest that they take the Xpert Class instead.

I have taken golf lessons from 10 different golf instructors, so far. I knew what I was getting into in each case. I must say, I walked away from each instructor with a gold nugget.

Please call them and explain your situation. Most certified instructors are very professional and will let you know what they can do right away.....SPF=randyg
 
Williebetmore said:
DCP,
I think you should forget about the lessons....UNLESS you are planning on changing your approach to improving. The lessons from the gurus are valuable only if your practice approach is diligent with stringent adherence to the lesson. Your practice should be regular and intense; focused on your weaknesses; with documentation included to monitor the progress. You must have a solid, repeatable, pressure resistant stroke as your first goal; work on more advanced material is practically wasted if done before your stroke is "grooved." Such practice is painfully dull at times (??most times for most people??), and you will have WAY less time to "run racks"; but improvement is inevitable.

If you are seeking a magic bullet; forget it...only a SERIES of lessons will do the trick.

There are only 2 ways to learn high level pool....the slow, difficult, and expensive way.....or the slow, difficult way. Lessons with the gurus is the cheapest way and will be way less expensive than gambling with the champs. There is no easy way. JMO.


TAP-TAP-TAP
 
Rarelymisses said:
Don't listen to the guys who are discouraging. Keep taking lessons, and take them from various people. Each instructor will have something different to say or add, and some of what they teach you will be wrong. Don't believe anything that any of them says, but listen carefully to them and try out things by yourself as soon as possible. If they taught you something that works, great. If it doesn't work, don't be completely surprised. Most of what they teach you will probably be O.K., but sometimes they make mistakes too. For example, each instructor (and probably everybody on this forum) would tell you that the cue ball caroms off an object on a tangent line at 90 degrees to the point of impact. The truth is that it NEVER comes off at 90 degrees, not even for a millisecond. It comes off at something like 88.5 degrees because of the coefficient of restitution of the ball material. But don't believe me either ... just go out and test it for yourself !
Two points, RM.

DCP has pretty much never shown any interest in the advice offered in response to his questions. Maybe an in-person lesson would shake him up enough that he can actually make progress, but none of the previous three sets of lessons has done him any good. I could guarantee him that if he took a lesson from me, it would be unlike his previous lessons, but I'm sure it will never happen.

In the courses I've done for referee training, I've been very careful to point out the several reasons for the initial carom angle not being 90 degrees. There are at least three other common reasons that break the 90 degree rule. Do you know why the angle is often larger than 90 degrees?

OK, three points. The angle for in-spec balls will often be less than 90 degrees due to the inelasticity of the balls. But it is not a fixed angle. It depends on the cut angle. This was pointed in a very nice article about ten years ago in Billiards Digest, so the idea has been available to those instructors who are willing to stretch their minds a little and not just teach the same old dogma.
 
Williebetmore said:
DCP,
I think you should forget about the lessons....UNLESS you are planning on changing your approach to improving. The lessons from the gurus are valuable only if your practice approach is diligent with stringent adherence to the lesson. Your practice should be regular and intense; focused on your weaknesses; with documentation included to monitor the progress. You must have a solid, repeatable, pressure resistant stroke as your first goal; work on more advanced material is practically wasted if done before your stroke is "grooved." Such practice is painfully dull at times (??most times for most people??), and you will have WAY less time to "run racks"; but improvement is inevitable.

If you are seeking a magic bullet; forget it...only a SERIES of lessons will do the trick.

There are only 2 ways to learn high level pool....the slow, difficult, and expensive way.....or the slow, difficult way. Lessons with the gurus is the cheapest way and will be way less expensive than gambling with the champs. There is no easy way. JMO.

well, now, lets see, where to begin..........

i didnt take several lessons from Tom "Dr Cue" Rossman, Diana Minor, and Mark Wilson just for the heck of it. i still go back through and listen/watch the Rossman tapes, still go through the material Diana Minor and Mark Wilson gave me.

this is why i still work on stroking through the coke bottle, stroking over the rail where the wood/cloth meet in a straight fashion, still watch Kinister's 60 minute workout tape(s) and Bob Byrne's workout tapes, still diagram shots on my own to practice that i missed, still watch all the ESPN and Accu-Stats tapes all the time, have gone to several Pro tournaments (BCA and WPBA Peoria), still spend hours at the table practicing, still seek advice on here (and use it in spite of what some think), went out and bought a Gold Crown IV after having three other tables, have bought and sold many cues (playing, jump, break), still work with Tucker's 3rd Eye Trainer, still use the Elephant and Rempe training balls, still come up with my own ideas as to how to work on various weaknesses, still shoot the cue ball down into the long rail all the time and try and have it return to hit my tip, still video myself at times, still use mirrors at times..........the list goes on and on with regards to what i've done to try and make myself a better player.

and i probably will agree that i am somewhat guilty of wanting to try my hand at "Breaking And Running Out" more than what i should. however, i went from being a beginner/novice several years ago to be able to run multiple racks nowadays on good days.

however, along those lines, i have been seriously thinking about devoting myself to a stringent practice regimen, starting in the very near future. i am thinking i might even post a new thread on what this practice routine will consist of. this new practice regimen will consist of various ideas/drills obtained over the years from my trio of "Gurus", that trio consisting of Rossman, Minor, and Wilson. it will also include bits and pieces from the Kinister and Byrne teaching tapes.

as far as the latest lesson, well, just not sure i want to spend the $$$ yet. i realize it couldnt hurt, and i keep asking myself why not since the posters on this forum all seem to rave about this instructor's abilities.

DCP
 
Bob Jewett said:
Two points, RM.

DCP has pretty much never shown any interest in the advice offered in response to his questions. Maybe an in-person lesson would shake him up enough that he can actually make progress, but none of the previous three sets of lessons has done him any good. I could guarantee him that if he took a lesson from me, it would be unlike his previous lessons, but I'm sure it will never happen.

who the he~ll says i never show any interest in the advice offered on here??? or dont take it to the table???

i do think i need to point out that while many think Tom Rossman is nothing but a trick shot artist/showman, he is also a BCA Certified Master Instructor. Mark Wilson is, i believe, recognized as one of the leading instructors in the U.S. IIRC he even gave Romford Slim a lesson. and Diana Minor - well, thats a no brainer there, quite a charming lady!

DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
who the he~ll says i never show any interest in the advice offered on here??? or dont take it to the table???

i do think i need to point out that while many think Tom Rossman is nothing but a trick shot artist/showman, he is also a BCA Certified Master Instructor. Mark Wilson is, i believe, recognized as one of the leading instructors in the U.S. IIRC he even gave Romford Slim a lesson. and Diana Minor - well, thats a no brainer there, quite a charming lady!

DCP


Sorry, Tom Rossman is not a BCA Master Instructor.....period
 
randyg said:
Sorry, Tom Rossman is not a BCA Master Instructor.....period

then the BCA website was wrong several years ago, because he was listed as a certified master instructor.

funny, Randy, if you will remember the 2002 BCA, you and i had this same conversation seated next to where Rossman and Massey were doing their thing. the little room at the Riviera with Tom and Mike, with the Sardo boys doing their tight rack thing, and Loree Jon Jones singing.

doubt you remember me though...........

DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
who the he~ll says i never show any interest in the advice offered on here??? or dont take it to the table???

DCP


DCP,
Actually, it would be quite prudent to NOT show any interest in advice offered here. While I love the cuetable diagrams as a way to show general positions; advice given based on these diagrams is QUITE flawed. Pool is a game of inches; and the small diagrams do NOT give a true picture of what is possible. As you are well aware, most of the advice you receive is based on flawed assumptions about what is or is not possible; only the player at the table at the time of the shot is able to know this (as you always point out at some point in the thread).

Also, as in this thread, you give no clue as to your goals. A thread on a specific shot should include info on WHY you are asking (otherwise we are subjected to the usual flurry of sarcasm and misguided wit). A thread such as this on "possible lessons" should at the very minimum include a statement of your goals - otherwise all of this "advice" (like mine) is useless.

If your goal is to be a good player (defined as one who RARELY misses a makeable shot; NOT defined by runout capability); then you are not there if my review of your last 100 posts is an indication. If your goal is to have a good stroke (which is necessary to become a good player); then you are not there either. If your goal is to be a casual, above average player; then why take any lessons - you're already there?

To me, any player that wants to advance should work on their stroke until they are a BALL POCKETING MACHINE; then learn how to play pool. If I were an instructor; I would give up on any student that could not develop killer ball pocketing skills within 2-3 years - it's not complicated; but it does require fortitude. At a half-hour a day of proper practice for a year or two, you should not be missing the shots you describe. You describe spending a lot of time practicing/playing for several years; you should be near pro-level by now. If your stroke was great, you WOULD be running out often enough to satisfy yourself, and there would NOT be much variation in your game from day to day. You would LOVE IT.

If you really want to be a good player (as defined by this elite group that is AZB); then develop a great stroke with the stroke guru's. Then seek out the pro's who can tell you as you play what principle's to follow (AZB cuetable discussions are not the way to do it). Everyone knows the proper principles, but knowing when to use them and when to ignore them as you play is something the pro's can teach you in short order. Once you do this, then you need to COMPETE. Pool IS competition, and playing in competition is VERY different than practicing. Playing under the pressure of gambling/league competition is GOOD FOR YOUR GAME; and allows improvement that may never come without it. Hope this all helps. Good luck.

P.S. - all of the above is not my view of things; it was what was told to me 5 years ago by a pro who took an interest in my desire to learn.
 
Last edited:
instead of an instructor you'd be better off seeing a sports psychologist, u have the wrong approach to improving your game, if u keep looking regularly for improvement you'll never see it, focus on playing the game and not at improving it, you need patience more than anything else, until u find it you'll be stuck in a big rut u may never get out of
________
 
Last edited:
Back
Top