Replacing Formica on Gold Crown Rails

Ok.

A. You did quote me that price last year on the phone. (For the sub rail modification, I guessed on the walnut cap and shipping would probably be more than I said)

B. This thread had nothing to do with your sub rail modifications.

C. You Brought the sub rail modifications into this, not me.

D. I never "knocked" you at all.

E. There is nothing wrong with using veneer on an almost flat surface if the person applying it knows what they are doing.

F. I know what the tables are worth and I am very comfortable with what I charge.

G. 100% of people I sell tables to are not looking for sub rail modification. I know this because I tell every single one about the option to have the sub-rails modified to play the best they can and they immediately say no when I tell them how much extra it costs w/ shipping.

H. I understand we don't get a long, but, I can still respect what you do. I don't really care if you like me or not. I know you are one of the best out there.

I love doing this and never plan on quitting. My customers are always happy and my business is growing every year! I am very blessed with all of the wonderful people who call me to custom restore tables for them. I work very hard to do as much as I can myself and I have zero shame in hiring others to do the parts I cannot. 18 Gold Crowns (12 GC2'S & 6 GC4's), 8 Anniversary's and 1 Bad Ass Centennial in the last 2 years. My prices are fair and I sleep well at night :)

Trent from Toledo

My photo Album: http://forums.azbilliards.com/album.php?albumid=1481
 
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Trent....what have you offered AZ Billiards....other than posting pics of your tables for sale?
This section is to answer questions....not post your inventory.
I answered the guys question....by promoting another mechanic to do the work.
I told him to contact Jerimy Chambers......you don't contribute to this forum other than....you have tables for sell......you call those restored....but the real mechanic work on them hasn't been done.....just a pretty paint job.
I believe that when a table is restored....the wood work should all be complete.
The rails are shot on 90% of those older tables....and need replaced and calibrated for today's modern cushions...PERIOD
Glen built a lot of this Talk To A Mechanic to answer customers questions....not to promote their inventory that's for sell.
Mark Gregory
 
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Not going to try to convince you of anything:)

Not going to try to convince you of anything:)

People were asking about replacing the formica on Gold Crowns, I gave my 2 cents :)

You do what you do and I do what I do. My customers like what I do and that is what matters to me :) I post the pictures of my finished projects in my photo album and people must like to look because there are over 10,000 views on my album :)

Trent from Toledo :)

P.s.: I use Brunswick Superspeeds on all my projects and as I mentioned earlier this is why there are no sub rail modifications: "G. 100% of people I sell tables to are not looking for sub rail modification. I know this because I tell every single one about the option to have the sub-rails modified to play the best they can and they immediately say no when I tell them how much extra it costs w/ shipping."
 
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trentfromtoledo said:
Not going to try to convince you of anything:)

People were asking about replacing the formica on Gold Crowns, I gave my 2 cents :)

You do what you do and I do what I do. My customers like what I do and that is what matters to me :) I post the pictures of my finished projects in my photo album and people must like to look because there are over 10,000 views on my album :)

Trent from Toledo :)

P.s.: I use Brunswick Superspeeds on all my projects and as I mentioned earlier this is why there are no sub rail modifications: "G. 100% of people I sell tables to are not looking for sub rail modification. I know this because I tell every single one about the option to have the sub-rails modified to play the best they can and they immediately say no when I tell them how much extra it costs w/ shipping."
Click to expand...

My point exactly....you use this section to sale tables.
Why is rebuilding the sub rails an add on in the price....when everything else you do is included in the price?
I would think having the table play right....would already be part of the price for the table....so what your saying is....if they want the table to play right...it's extra...is that is right?
Mark Gregory
 
Hahahahahahaha

You are not getting anywhere.....You are drawing at straws..... I owe you ZERO explanations. My clients are always happy and that is all that matters. :)

Trent from Toledo
 
trentfromtoledo said:
You are not getting anywhere.....You are drawing at straws..... I owe you ZERO explanations. My clients are always happy and that is all that matters. :)

Trent from Toledo
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I'm not drawing at straws....I just asked why rail work was and up charge.
This is what I do to all my restored anniversary and centennia tables.
New wood feet
New bendable plywood around the pedestals
Completely reinforced frame
Block sand the slates to play great
Replace all the wood under the corners and sides of the rails
Replace the 8-ball plates and the wood and install steel inserts to hold the rails down. A long with the oringal lettering under the rails
Offer they a choice of cushion...super speed or Artemis
Plus all the refinishing work...and buffing of all allumium
No up charges...that's what my tables get done.
And my prices are more than fair.....now....I really sleep good at night.
I go the extra 100 miles for my tables....and if I don't like something...I do until I do like it.
I don't do it just for the money....I do it for the pride I take in each and everyone of my tables.
My tables restored will last another 100 years.....to hand the antique down.
Now...do you still think my prices are high...for the work I do to them?
My tables take about 4 to 6 months to get....but they are completely restored 100% from top to bottom.
That's what my customers get when they receive one of my RESTORED tables.
Thanks for playing
Mark Gregory
 
No Doubt.

I work very hard on all of my restorations and all of my customers are satisfied. The modified sub rail just is not one of the parts I have been contracted to have done. I do know for a fact your tables are much more expensive. A gentleman from San Antonio Texas contacted me a week or so ago about a 10 x 5 Centennial and he would not tell me exactly the price you quoted him, but, I did get that it was "around" $15,000.00. In my research they sell for about $10,000.00 on the average. As a restored antique, it is only worth what the market says it is. Modifications may or may not add value, it all depends on the buyer. Some people want the antique in as close to original condition as possible, different strokes for different folks! :)

There has been no question that your work is amazing and we will leave it at that. :)


Trent from Toledo
 
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trentfromtoledo said:
I work very hard on all of my restorations and all of my customers are satisfied. The modified sub rail just is not one of the parts I have been contracted to have done. I do know for a fact your tables are much more expensive. A gentleman from San Antonio Texas contacted me a week or so ago about a 10 x 5 Centennial and he would not tell me exactly the price you quoted him, but, I did get that it was "around" $15,000.00. In my research they sell for about $10,000.00 on the average. As a restored antique, it is only worth what the market says it is. Modifications may or may not add value, it all depends on the buyer. Some people want the antique in as close to original condition as possible, different strokes for different folks! :)

There has been no question that your work is amazing and we will leave it at that. :)


Trent from Toledo
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Trent...first of all...that Centennail is a snooker table....that needs to be converted to a pool table....witch is better cause the pockets coming out at 4-1/2" corners don't need to have shims.
That makes the table look much better....plus all the materials and work that goes into my tables is well worth the prices.
Since your so set on trying to knock me by posting up prices...how about the 4x8 anniversary you shipped for 15,000.....and you do no rebuilding of frames, pedestals, rails....just refinished wood......and my prices are high?
When customers get my table....they're done for both playability and looks.
I don't know where you get the going rates....the tables worth the mechanic doing the table.....not the refinishers work.
You sell the look of the table....and I know the guy contacted you...that's why you asked on here if Brunswick made a 10 centennial pool table...so you could put a paint job on it and sale it to the guy...who cares how it plays...just send me the money.
I don't do that shit with tables....my pride comes first on my tables...and 15 is not high for the work being done to that table...Diamond wants 10 for a used one...and my tables play better than they came from the factory where Brunswick made them.
You want to keep putting numbers up...as though my ripping someone one off....I put more work into one table than you would ever know.
And my customers love the way my tables play....Top players play on my 10 centennials in tournaments and have called and want one...or they find one and ship me the rails...and I'll give you the price on my rail work...that way you don't have to say you heard it somewhere else....2000 to convert the snooker to pool and have it play PERFECT.
I spend more on materials than anyone....sure I could go the cheap way and make more....but that don't interest me.
My number one concern is to make that table play as close to perfect as possible.
So you can stop with the numbers game.....tell everyone how much you get for you restore...and how far you go with the materials....and rebuilding of them.
Then we'll see if my prices are worth the work the customer receives.
Mark Gregory
 
perfectpocketz said:
Trent...first of all...that Centennail is a snooker table....that needs to be converted to a pool table....witch is better cause the pockets coming out at 4-1/2" corners don't need to have shims.
That makes the table look much better....plus all the materials and work that goes into my tables is well worth the prices.
Since your so set on trying to knock me by posting up prices...how about the 4x8 anniversary you shipped for 15,000.....and you do no rebuilding of frames, pedestals, rails....just refinished wood......and my prices are high?
When customers get my table....they're done for both playability and looks.
I don't know where you get the going rates....the tables worth the mechanic doing the table.....not the refinishers work.
You sell the look of the table....and I know the guy contacted you...that's why you asked on here if Brunswick made a 10 centennial pool table...so you could put a paint job on it and sale it to the guy...who cares how it plays...just send me the money.
I don't do that shit with tables....my pride comes first on my tables...and 15 is not high for the work being done to that table...Diamond wants 10 for a used one...and my tables play better than they came from the factory where Brunswick made them.
You want to keep putting numbers up...as though my ripping someone one off....I put more work into one table than you would ever know.
And my customers love the way my tables play....Top players play on my 10 centennials in tournaments and have called and want one...or they find one and ship me the rails...and I'll give you the price on my rail work...that way you don't have to say you heard it somewhere else....2000 to convert the snooker to pool and have it play PERFECT.
I spend more on materials than anyone....sure I could go the cheap way and make more....but that don't interest me.
My number one concern is to make that table play as close to perfect as possible.
So you can stop with the numbers game.....tell everyone how much you get for you restore...and how far you go with the materials....and rebuilding of them.
Then we'll see if my prices are worth the work the customer receives.
Mark Gregory
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I NEVER CHARGED $15,000.00 for a 4 x 8 Anniversary, you got your facts WRONG or are simply lying :) Have a good night :)

Trent from Toledo
 
trentfromtoledo said:
I NEVER CHARGED $15,000.00 for a 4 x 8 Anniversary, you got your facts WRONG or are simply lying :) Have a good night :)

Trent from Toledo
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I'm only saying what you told Glen...I don't lie about anything.
All I'm asking you is if.....you or anyone puts the kind of work and materials into your restorations like I do.
Let's just put the facts of restoring your anniversary and Centennial table work....I'll start to post pics of my restores....from the top to the bottom.
That will show just what kind of work goes into my tables.....I have more hours in rebuilding anniversary and centennial tables.
Mark Gregory also notice no more 8-ball plates...steel inserts to bolt the rails on.
 

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perfectpocketz said:
I'm only saying what you told Glen...I don't lie about anything.
All I'm asking you is if.....you or anyone puts the kind of work and materials into your restorations like I do.
Let's just put the facts of restoring your anniversary and Centennial table work....I'll start to post pics of my restores....from the top to the bottom.
That will show just what kind of work goes into my tables.....I have more hours in rebuilding anniversary and centennial tables.
Mark Gregory also notice no more 8-ball plates...steel inserts to bolt the rails on.
Click to expand...

Here's the frame and centennial pedestalView attachment image.jpg
 
Great work Mark.

Mark, I never said one time you did anything less than AWESOME WORK. I appreciate it very much. We have been going back an forth for hours now and it comes down to this: I love this business and aspire to be the best mechanic I can be. Not patting myself on the back or anything, but, I have been putting the time in since the day I started. I am very passionate about my restorations. I have much to learn about the whole sub rail modification part and as you know its hard to learn with out a teacher......

I posted a list of all the work involved in the Anniversary that went to Antwerp, Belgium: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=316249&page=4

Trent from Toledo

P.s. I have not sold one table from this forum and the only sale I made from this website was in the for sale section and it was this 9 foot Brunswick Anniversary that now resides a couple of hours north of Toronto, Canada: http://forums.azbilliards.com/album.php?albumid=1481&pictureid=13922
 
trentfromtoledo said:
Mark, I never said one time you did anything less than AWESOME WORK. I appreciate it very much. We have been going back an forth for hours now and it comes down to this: I love this business and aspire to be the best mechanic I can be. Not patting myself on the back or anything, but, I have been putting the time in since the day I started. I am very passionate about my restorations. I have much to learn about the whole sub rail modification part and as you know its hard to learn with out a teacher......

I posted a list of all the work involved in the Anniversary that went to Antwerp, Belgium: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=316249&page=4

Trent from Toledo



P.s. I have not sold one table from this forum and the only sale I made from this website was in the for sale section and it was this 9 foot Brunswick Anniversary that now resides a couple of hours north of Toronto, Canada: http://forums.azbilliards.com/album.php?albumid=1481&pictureid=13922
Click to expand...
I have no problem with what you do on this forum....you started with how much do you chage for this and how much for that...when you don't deal with me on anything.
I offered to do your rails a year ago....and your reply was you didn't want to put that kind of money into the rails.
No problem....I mentioned Jerimy Chambers for the reformica job...and you started with how much do I charge on everything...when your not going to buy anything or have me do anything....you just wanted to show my prices higher than yours so you can sell tables.
No bad blood....just facts.

I spend months getting tables right...and Jerimy makes my blinds and ball boxes as well.....you should have just given Jerimy a plug and left it at that....cause no one deserves their name mentioned in this forum more than Jerimy.....he's not only a great guy....he's without douth the most knowledgeable table mechanic on this forum today.
Im not on here to argue with you....or try and sell a table.
I'm behind on restorations now.....I make sure my tables leave only when I'm happy with the look...cause I know how there're going to play.
Mark Gregory
 
My reply.

I may have said I did not want to put the money into the rails: I never contacted you with the intention of having a set done for me at all.

I contacted you about the price so I could tell my clients how much it costs if they wanted to have the subrail adjusted and cushions mounted. As I mentioned before, I inform every client about the subrail option and have not ever had one single client want to have it done.

Jerimy makes the aprons and ball boxes for Ken Hash @ classicbilliards to, I bought 3 sets of blinds from Jerimy last year. I have hear nothing but great things about Jerimy for sure. Happy we can agree on that.

As I mentioned before, I have not sold a single table from this forum, I have sold ONE from the for sale section on this site.

I don't think you truly understand what a forum like this is for. Here is a quote from Kickshotkid pointing that out " I really don't understand Mark Forums are for sharing information that's the single reason they were invented. But I will ask Glen when he gets here to do my table lol(insert joke here). "

Yes, it is simply for questions from the average Joe to mechanics, but, it is also for other people in this business to network and LEARN new things. I have met so many guys who do this for a living from this forum than you could ever go out and actually meet.

I have learned so much from this forum and I appreciate the knowledge because there is no school to go to and learn this stuff. The pool tables service manuals only give so much info.

This is a great place to network and I love posting my latest completed projects on here for those who like to look at it. My clients all know their tables are on here because I tell each one that when they are happy and smiling at their restored pool tables :)

Trent from Toledo
 
trentfromtoledo said:
I may have said I did not want to put the money into the rails: I never contacted you with the intention of having a set done for me at all.

I contacted you about the price so I could tell my clients how much it costs if they wanted to have the subrail adjusted and cushions mounted. As I mentioned before, I inform every client about the subrail option and have not ever had one single client want to have it done.

Jerimy makes the aprons and ball boxes for Ken Hash @ classicbilliards to, I bought 3 sets of blinds from Jerimy last year. I have hear nothing but great things about Jerimy for sure. Happy we can agree on that.

As I mentioned before, I have not sold a single table from this forum, I have sold ONE from the for sale section on this site.

I don't think you truly understand what a forum like this is for. Here is a quote from Kickshotkid pointing that out " I really don't understand Mark Forums are for sharing information that's the single reason they were invented. But I will ask Glen when he gets here to do my table lol(insert joke here). "

Yes, it is simply for questions from the average Joe to mechanics, but, it is also for other people in this business to network and LEARN new things. I have met so many guys who do this for a living from this forum than you could ever go out and actually meet.

I have learned so much from this forum and I appreciate the knowledge because there is no school to go to and learn this stuff. The pool tables service manuals only give so much info.

This is a great place to network and I love posting my latest completed projects on here for those who like to look at it. My clients all know their tables are on here because I tell each one that when they are happy and smiling at their restored pool tables :)

Trent from Toledo
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I'm pretty sure I understand this forum and what it's intended for.
Talk to a mechanic....is just that....not here's my inventory for sell and thanks for looking....is that what it's here for.....or is it for guys that are mechanics to answer other members questions about table problems....or am I wrong.
Anyone that knows anything understands what your trying to accomplish on this site.....and at the same time trying to knock me.
You contribute nothing more than....you have tables for sell.
I had several calls on how you knock everyone....but on this site you play the nice guy card.....I see through guys like you....I know there true intentions.
This never had to come to this like I said before......but by me offering Jerimy as a great mechanic that can do the guys formica......you started in on my prices....and then want to answer....look all I can say is.....if your not fixing the rail properly as part of any restoration.....you not giving them a restored table....just a refinished look.
Mark Gregory
 
That's absolutely brilliant. What do you paint the base frames with? I also love the way you paint and stencil in the original markings on to the back of the rails and add your signature for a nice touch!! Are those exact 90° wedges? Do you use the wedges to straighten out any bow on the base frame? Do the base frames straighten out beyond 90° when you put the slate on? Do you attach the 90° wedges after the slate is on? Wow, there are so many things to consider when trying to make a table play better than it did from the factory. So many little factory original design flaws add up to really effect play-ability.

I'd have to say Mark, you not only make them look beautiful, you make them play great!! and you never shy away from helping to answer questions..



perfectpocketz said:
Here's the frame and centennial pedestalView attachment 360460
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Here we go again!

You cant say or think what ever you want, I don't care if you think I am trying to "knock" you or what you "think" my intentions are here. Not that you care, I have continually praised your work and commended you for it.

Do I like you or even really know you? Heck NO, but, this is the good ole USA you can think what ever you like and so can I.

What you do are modifications and you charge much more for your tables and that is a fact. I would expect nothing less because you have to get paid for your time.

From an antique dealing perspective, you must know by now that many people are just simply buying these old Brunswick's for the looks. People who want the table to play the way you make them play call you right? :)

I do this because I love it and I make good money at it. I put a ton of time and effort into every table I restore. You can never take that away from me or my clients. So long as I do what my clients hire me to I have done my job.

I am going to continue doing what I do and you will do the same I am sure. My next project will be done and posted when it is :)

Trent from Toledo
 
JoeyInCali said:
Is that the normal frame for that table, Mark ?
Or those supports are add-ons ?
That is one hell of a frame.
Click to expand...

The original frame is used and painted flat black....as the bottoms of the slates are flat black.
Those tables are old and smell....you can clean and clean.....but it's a waste of time. Everything is stained...painted...or buffed.
The frame supports are added to support the slates...rails and blinds.
I install them before the frame is sanded and painted.....fit them glue and screw the supports on the frame.
The slates get blocked for flatness....makes leveling so much easier....and the table rolls great...but the slates don't need jacked up with shims.
If I was buying something from anyone that they call restored......I would think everything on the table has been restored.....at worst....back to oringal....I see cars getting restored.....they don't miss anything....and they're better than when they came from the factory......in fact there awesome.
That's what I think people should get when they buy a table from me.just because some of the customers can't play pool very well......don't mean they shouldn't get a great playing table.
I don't sell table for looks....I have a price that includes COMPLETE restoration.
Who knows....just cause the guy buying the table don't play......maybe one day he's showing his table off and that someone he's showing can really play.....be really sad if the guy said great looking table.....but it plays like shit.
Mark Gregory
 
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