Resin Impregnation

[meridianblades]

I'm not an expert, but have done a lot of research trying to do my own stabilizing, and have had great success with it for cuemaking, with some oop's along the way. My math maybe off, but one must realize that with 4000 PSI, that means there is a GREAT amount of pressure on the wood being done, as it's 4000 per square inch times the total amount of square inches and CAN lead to cellular collapse. Pressure treated lumber at 2x?? sizes by 12 foot long are done with vacuum and only about 100-150 psi and it goes straight thru....google it and it's described very well. No 4000 psi for 2" x ?? lumber, so why use it for 1.5" x1.5"x 16-18"?
When I asked you if you had any experience with this you didn't answer, so I assumed you didn't....my bad, sorry. But you do come off as a self righteous know it all about this subject and did ridicule other posters in the other thread with 'your way is the only way' and basically you gave some not so correct info to others that may be interested in doing this themselves. You were the first one to use the 4000 PSI figure that was quoted from your suppliers website. Just because you failed at DIY doesn't mean others will. First thing to remember is that we build cues...not knife handle or gun handles and there is a big difference as to what is required for these 2 different purposes. We need to 'stabilize' a piece of soft, maybe unworkable, wood that we still want the properties of wood to an extent. If we wanted a block of plastic that has the grainwork look of wood, we can buy plastic blocks that look that way, but they won't transmit the same 'feel' in a cue. You need a piece of wood that is been made into a plastic block so that it is impervious to water and chemicals and just applying a finish would not work as it would wear out to fast. You want the look of wood and the 'feel factor' isn't a factor. We drill out 3/4" of that impregnated wood in the middle and basically have a skin of it on the outside of a core, so most of what we would pay for from a 'pro shop' is wasted on the floor of our shop. You take a block and cut it into slabs and need the consistant color through out the block as you're trying to use all of it. If there are defects caused by the process of OVER pressured, you can cut around them, we can't. If we need a colored dye, we need the color basically at the final size. As to penetration, the stuff I am using has a UV component in it and when done, if you cut the dowel in half, and use a UV light, it shows that the POLYMER has gone all the way thru. A dye like you're talking about is a pigment with a larger size particle than the fluid it is suspended in and the colored dye pigments may need the pressure to get them deeper but that doesn't mean the polymer didn't get in all the way before hand. Coloring doesn't equal stabilizing....you seem to be equating the dye/coloring to mean stabilized....not so. Stabilizing is only making it so that it isn't soft and weak....and actually most stabilizing companies even advertise that it won't make the wood waterproof, so the 'water test isn't important.....don't plan on floating any of my cues anytime soon anyways.
If I do a redwood burl blank, it is already turned to 1-3/8" and is about 14"-16" long, goes in at about 5 -6 oz. and comes out around 12-13 oz. after the bake cycle, so for you to say it is hard to do as a DIY, your flat out wrong, sorry. I pay $100 for the fluid and get about 13 - 15 pieces, depending on type of wood and size, out of it that are great, so do the math verses a pro shop where most of your money endeds up in the dust collector.....
JMHO,
Happy Easter,
Dave

Dave sorry its taken me so long to get back to you I was with the cue repair guys counting my millions and cashing all my endorsement checks.....:thumbup:

You would need to speak to the company owners in regards to their PSI. Their setup and the stabilant itself is proprietary, and theyre both different. The 4K PSI is posted on one of their sites...Pressure treated lumber and pro stabilizing hardwoods, is not the same. Never will be.

So when does the magic enter the wood and it becomes "Cue wood"... hahahaha???? After I personally harvest the burl from the tree? Is it before or after I cut the big pieces into little pieces? I mean after all, the guy who invented YOUR stabilant isn't a cuemaker..... he's a pen guy. Altho Curtis does have a forum on one of the knife boards now. And even tho he says "Redwood should be avoided"....you claim "Nope, works like a charm on redwood".... I think I will go with the pen guy that invented it on this one...

You're acting just like the guys who will argue to the death that a brake vac, wood hardener and pickle jar is the bomb for stabilizing.... Sometimes it literally is.... Let's see..... maybe heat up some extremely flammable explosive fluid to a boil then cap it off and let the cooling process create the vac.... what could go wrong ?? Or just throw the wood in the pickle jar and vac it as much as possible, then go with the "soak and hope" method. That is one of the reasons why people like the cactus juice because its not flammable and I don't think it even needs an MSDS for shipping. Oh and don't ever get wood hardener wet cuz it turns the wood white.

Dave if you cant push and pull the dye then you cant push or pull the stabilant, regardless of what it is..... Sorry. You mentioned that just because I failed doesn't mean that everyone else will...... Dave I guess in MA, you can pull a vac beyond 30 inches of mercury? In MN and I believe on this planet, 30 is the max, and usually I would be happy with 27-28 for several days / weeks at a time....

The last cuemaker who posted his dyed pieces in the last thread, was using pressure, Dave. Pressure is the key. If you don't have it then there is a ton of hardwoods that are out of reach to you. All you're doing is "surface coating" it.. I cant tell if the stabilant went all the way thru your wood, or not it's clear.... spalted maple / redwood is ALL you have tested ? Fresh out of scrap pieces ?

Oh and here we go with my favorite myth.... "Plastic looking...." ahh yes, but nobody wants to take the test to tell if they can tell the difference between stabilized and unstabilized".... Hell I could use wood hardener and you still couldn't tell... That's an easy test for cuemakers who use all kinds of exotics right?...

What does this mean ??? -->"You need a piece of wood that is been made into a plastic block so that it is impervious to water and chemicals and just applying a finish would not work as it would wear out to fast" HAHAHAHAHAHA....really?

Heres a good one too Dave...."so the 'water test isn't important.....don't plan on floating any of my cues anytime soon anyways."

---> Have you ever gone to Rockler or Woodcraft or a place that sells hardwood turning blanks or bowl blanks, and observed that even tho they're completed covered in wax they still managed to crack? How does water get thru that (surface layer)..... Surface layer could be wax, finish, could be poly, could be oil....etc etc. SO when your juice only goes part of the way into the wood, guess what, the part that ISNT stabilized absorbs water, AND/OR the moisture wasn't displaced and as the water from the wood dries out, you get what is commonly known as movement. Which yields cracking, checking, swelling and shrink.

You guys act like this is BRAND NEW technology.... go to the WSSI site, there is articles from the guitar guys using it from the 80's. What about Wildwoods ??? I guarantee they were using pressure....

You can weld a chamber in steel which is what some of the cuemakers have already done, and figure out a way to get some pressure on there after the vac. Here's another tip.... the dye process is separate from the stabilizing process. Dye it, dry it, stabilize it.... in that order.

Why would anyone want to stabilize cocobolo?........ Well Dave, the point is not why (other than it too, moves like lots of other hardwoods) it's because cocobolo has been on the DO NOT TRY and stabilize list for many years. There are several lists out there of what stabilizes well and what does not. (google) Coco has always been on the impossible list.... so that is big news for oily woods. Subject to testing of course...

 

[meridianblades]

I prefer to impregnate burl wood with a big fat core....at that point the only real benefit i see to a stabilant "on the .050 to .125ish wall thickness" is surface hardness and not having to seal the cue 50 times. Its also alot easier to penetrate a tube with a thin wall than a giant chunk in which 85% turns into saw dust anyway.

You can core the burl and it can STILL move on you.... Depends a lot of the species but it can and does happen. Even done by the pros is not a 100% guarantee.

 

[meridianblades]

Kudos to the guys who posted some information and details on their home brew setup. I completely agree regarding the idea of achieving the goal using the minimum amount of transformation. I have read before comments on getting full penetration. Who wouldn't core a stabilized piece? Full penetration sounds good but is stabilization overkill best for cue purposes? If you rely on full penetration and don't core it i think a buzz from a bolt might be more likely if it is true stabilized material doesn't glue all that well.

You're still wondering if it glues?..... awesome.... keep searching for the "secret source"....I'm sure its out there.

 

[shankster8]

Meridian, thanks for your input. You are saying that the pressure phase, the 4000 psi after evacuation, is essential, despite the input of cuemakes who say it is not - correct?

 

[Dave38]

Dave sorry its taken me so long to get back to you I was with the cue repair guys counting my millions and cashing all my endorsement checks.....:thumbup:

You would need to speak to the company owners in regards to their PSI. Their setup and the stabilant itself is proprietary, and theyre both different. The 4K PSI is posted on one of their sites...Pressure treated lumber and pro stabilizing hardwoods, is not the same. Never will be.

So when does the magic enter the wood and it becomes "Cue wood"... hahahaha???? After I personally harvest the burl from the tree? Is it before or after I cut the big pieces into little pieces? I mean after all, the guy who invented YOUR stabilant isn't a cuemaker..... he's a pen guy. Altho Curtis does have a forum on one of the knife boards now. And even tho he says "Redwood should be avoided"....you claim "Nope, works like a charm on redwood".... I think I will go with the pen guy that invented it on this one...

You're acting just like the guys who will argue to the death that a brake vac, wood hardener and pickle jar is the bomb for stabilizing.... Sometimes it literally is.... Let's see..... maybe heat up some extremely flammable explosive fluid to a boil then cap it off and let the cooling process create the vac.... what could go wrong ?? Or just throw the wood in the pickle jar and vac it as much as possible, then go with the "soak and hope" method. That is one of the reasons why people like the cactus juice because its not flammable and I don't think it even needs an MSDS for shipping. Oh and don't ever get wood hardener wet cuz it turns the wood white.

Dave if you cant push and pull the dye then you cant push or pull the stabilant, regardless of what it is..... Sorry. You mentioned that just because I failed doesn't mean that everyone else will...... Dave I guess in MA, you can pull a vac beyond 30 inches of mercury? In MN and I believe on this planet, 30 is the max, and usually I would be happy with 27-28 for several days / weeks at a time....

The last cuemaker who posted his dyed pieces in the last thread, was using pressure, Dave. Pressure is the key. If you don't have it then there is a ton of hardwoods that are out of reach to you. All you're doing is "surface coating" it.. I cant tell if the stabilant went all the way thru your wood, or not it's clear.... spalted maple / redwood is ALL you have tested ? Fresh out of scrap pieces ?

Oh and here we go with my favorite myth.... "Plastic looking...." ahh yes, but nobody wants to take the test to tell if they can tell the difference between stabilized and unstabilized".... Hell I could use wood hardener and you still couldn't tell... That's an easy test for cuemakers who use all kinds of exotics right?...

What does this mean ??? -->"You need a piece of wood that is been made into a plastic block so that it is impervious to water and chemicals and just applying a finish would not work as it would wear out to fast" HAHAHAHAHAHA....really?

Heres a good one too Dave...."so the 'water test isn't important.....don't plan on floating any of my cues anytime soon anyways."

---> Have you ever gone to Rockler or Woodcraft or a place that sells hardwood turning blanks or bowl blanks, and observed that even tho they're completed covered in wax they still managed to crack? How does water get thru that (surface layer)..... Surface layer could be wax, finish, could be poly, could be oil....etc etc. SO when your juice only goes part of the way into the wood, guess what, the part that ISNT stabilized absorbs water, AND/OR the moisture wasn't displaced and as the water from the wood dries out, you get what is commonly known as movement. Which yields cracking, checking, swelling and shrink.

You guys act like this is BRAND NEW technology.... go to the WSSI site, there is articles from the guitar guys using it from the 80's. What about Wildwoods ??? I guarantee they were using pressure....

You can weld a chamber in steel which is what some of the cuemakers have already done, and figure out a way to get some pressure on there after the vac. Here's another tip.... the dye process is separate from the stabilizing process. Dye it, dry it, stabilize it.... in that order.

Why would anyone want to stabilize cocobolo?........ Well Dave, the point is not why (other than it too, moves like lots of other hardwoods) it's because cocobolo has been on the DO NOT TRY and stabilize list for many years. There are several lists out there of what stabilizes well and what does not. (google) Coco has always been on the impossible list.... so that is big news for oily woods. Subject to testing of course...

Don't even know how to take this ramble....and ridicule... bordering on bashing...
I'll just say, I use the Stick-Fast brand of stabilizer, so if you know who invented it... good for you, as I don't. Don't know if they are a pen builder or not...doesn't matter. It's a good product. With all due respect, which after your last post, is not to high.....I have stabilized redwood, and other SOFT woods successfully, In some cases increasing the overall weight by 3 times. Do you really think it's only in the skin of the wood? Only a uninformed person would believe that.

Your statement here is simply funny and shows what I feel is your misunderstanding of things,
"Have you ever gone to Rockler or Woodcraft or a place that sells hardwood turning blanks or bowl blanks, and observed that even tho they're completed covered in wax they still managed to crack? How does water get thru that (surface layer)..... Surface layer could be wax, finish, could be poly, could be oil....etc etc. SO when your juice only goes part of the way into the wood, guess what, the part that ISNT stabilized absorbs water, AND/OR the moisture wasn't displaced and as the water from the wood dries out, you get what is commonly known as movement. Which yields cracking, checking, swelling and shrink."

You do know that the checking/cracking comes from water already inside 'wet' wood being released too fast and the wax or any other coating on it is to slow down the release of that moisture so the ends don't crack/check???? Any opening thru the wax/coating can allow this to happen. Before stabilizing...everyone that plays with this knows..the wood must already be dry, around 8-10% so your reference to this is what??
But I do have to ask,.. Why on God's Green earth would you try to stabilize HARDwoods? the name says it all...If you know how to handle and season the hardwoods, they will not need to be put into a stabilizing solution in the first place, IMO. Again, you build knife handles, not cues.
The point of stabilizing woods in cuemaking is to be able to use soft woods that would not normally be able to be used....what part of this don't you understand? You build knife handles, we get that... you need to understand,...WE DON"T, therefore our needs are not the same as yours. Maybe you should just stick to your knife forums, as you don't have any apparent cuemaking experience, which according to the title of this sub-forum.... you are supposed to have in order to offer advice......rather than some knife handle builder/stabilized wood seller, ranting and ridiculing anyone that disagrees with him.
Dave

 

[ratcues]

Every time this topic comes up, we have a lot of opinions. Maybe this can put a stop to this bickering;

OPTIONS:
1. Send it out to have it impregnated
2. Do it in-house.
3. Buy wood that is already impregnated.

SIDE NOTES:
A. Either way will work for this type of application (cues).
B. As stated, some woods work better than others.
C. There are pros and cons to both options.
D. Do what works best for you.
E. If you do not have the equipment to do it yourself and do not want to invest in it, by all means, send it out.
F. And most important, never listen to anyone who says there is only one way to do something.

Now, if you want to know more about DIY impregnation, start a specific thread and those that do can help. If you want to know more about pro-impregnation, start a specific thread and those that do can help. Hopefully, each thread can get positive input from credible sources and the "other side," whichever it may be, can stay out.

 

[shankster8]

This is a cue I am building for my son using stabilized spalted maple with ebony handle. The maple is from my own tree. It has a full length maple core. Also a couple pictures of my tank setup. It's not top of the line but it works. I use individual holding tanks inside the main tank. This way I can do redwood and maple at the same time without having the redwood stain the maple as redwood will leach the red color. I do not use pressure, just vacuum.
Dave

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Dave thanks for your input! And, that's a handsome cue you are building for your son - like real handsome in my eyes.

 

[desi2960]

ratcues

F. And most important, never listen to anyone who says there is only one way to do something.


i cannot stress how accurate this statement is, there are members on this forum that have ragged my ass about how i build cues. we even had one member that said i could not build wood pin cues the way i do, because he tried it and it did not work.

this forum is very helpfull, but at some point you will have to make your own errors in the learning process.

 

[cueman]

F. And most important, never listen to anyone who says there is only one way to do something.


i cannot stress how accurate this statement is, there are members on this forum that have ragged my ass about how i build cues. we even had one member that said i could not build wood pin cues the way i do, because he tried it and it did not work.
this forum is very helpfull, but at some point you will have to make your own errors in the learning process.

The statement in bold is pretty funny. I have also been told many things were not possible that I have seen done.