Reverse Swipe - Squirt / Throw Related

[Cornerman]

Since I started experimenting with your ideas regarding shooting with english and the point and pivot method, I'm potting balls that were toughie feel shots much more consistently now.

I'm highlighting this because I believe there are hundreds of AZBillard readers that could benefit from trying some of these. Many are the ones who poo poo system analysis.

Suffice it to say that force follow shots at distance and speed with english are no longer a nightmare for me. Is that something to be happy about? Take a guess!

'xactly. I have met many people on these boards that have espoused the "just feel" method who could not repeatedly hit the force follow at distance with either inside or outside english (or any firm long distance english shots). If they don't have gobs of time to spend on the table to subconsciously ingrain shots, trying things like finding the pivot point and using BHE is for them, IMO.

Fred

 

[CaptainJR]

Exorcise 1. Take out a piece of paper and a pencil. Sign your name at the top of the paper.

Exorcise 2. Now keeping the pencil in your right hand (talking right handed here) take hold of the eraser end of the pencil with your left hand. Lay your right hand on the paper as usual. Now sign your name again, while holding the eraser still with your left hand.

Exorcise 3. Now still keeping hold of the pencil with both hands, sign your name again only this time do it by moving the eraser with your left hand. Your right hand can move across the paper to go to the right so you don't right over the previous letter, but make the letter shapes by moving the eraser with your left hand.

Of the second and third exorcises, which is more difficult?

Exorcise 4 and 5. Still keeping both hands on the pencil but move the right hand up near the middle of the pencil. Repeat exercises 2 and 3.

 

[Gabber]

Amen, brother!

Since I started experimenting with your ideas regarding shooting with english and the point and pivot method, I'm potting balls that were toughie feel shots much more consistently now. There's no doubt in my mind that BHE is the way to go for a whole slew of shots. There are other times when I'll use the parallel method because the shot is so ingrained and I just know how to pot it virtually every time that I don't need to change things around.

Suffice it to say that force follow shots at distance and speed with english are no longer a nightmare for me. Is that something to be happy about? Take a guess!

Cheers!

Flex

Imagine if you and I , using the same cue, were to line up on a 1/2 ball shot using 1 tip OE. If you used BHE and I used the parallel method, we would both arrive at the same position.
The dif bewteen the two is the original point of aim- the final cueing angle will be the same.

Gabber

 

[Cornerman]

Imagine if you and I , using the same cue, were to line up on a 1/2 ball shot using 1 tip OE. If you used BHE and I used the parallel method, we would both arrive at the same position.
The dif bewteen the two is the original point of aim- the final cueing angle will be the same.

Gabber

I know this has been brought up before, but I feel that your use of the term "parallel english" and "backhand english" are completely different than what has been written on the internet for several years.

They can't possibly end up in the same position.

Fred

 

[Solartje]

Colling, u know im very keen on learning things, but i dont understand AT ALL what u mean. :s

could u say what posts / books i need to read first before i even come close to even understand what im reading (let stand understand what u are explaining?)

its chineese for me...

Is this also something i should start to learn? or is it just for freaks who have to much time in there hands?

 

[Gabber]

'xactly. I have met many people on these boards that have espoused the "just feel" method who could not repeatedly hit the force follow at distance with either inside or outside english (or any firm long distance english shots). If they don't have gobs of time to spend on the table to subconsciously ingrain shots, trying things like finding the pivot point and using BHE is for them, IMO.

Fred

BHE/ pivoting is IMO fundamentally sound. If anyone wants to find their Q's pivot-point and use that as a starting basis to learn to play with E, fine. The basis of the method is to cancel -out squirt and get the QB to go straight,yes? I can understand the usefulness of this but a reverse swipe?
I,m not convinced that 'swipeing' [ sp?]actually does what people claim it does. I,m not even sure that what they think is happening , is really happening. Anyway, swiping means holding/ steering the Q thru the QB instead of letting go ,and thats just wrong.



It ok to experiment but Colin is pretty soon going to be playing in the [ maybe] most important tourney of his life.
IMO he can better be practicing /perfecting what he does know[ he has been playing for some years] and not finding out what he doesnt know. I,m not trying to knock the guy, I,m trying to help him. At the end of day, its just my 2ct.
BTW, the shot Colin gave is about the easiest shot there is to play with E......... and Flex has only been trying this method for only one day!

G...

 

[pete lafond]

Colling, u know im very keen on learning things, but i dont understand AT ALL what u mean. :s

could u say what posts / books i need to read first before i even come close to even understand what im reading (let stand understand what u are explaining?)

its chineese for me...

Is this also something i should start to learn? or is it just for freaks who have to much time in there hands?

I believe what is being said here are the effects of the CB/OB as a result of cue-ing. There is no aiming solution that will compensate for these effects, rather it is entirely feel. Having said that, many shots are missed leaving the 'C' player scratching his head. or, many fustrations exist leaving the player with no known means to get improved position. If you were to visit the many posts on these subjects, then yes study time is required.

Spend lots of time at the table and you'll figure it out. Read these posts, play often and you might just jump ahead quickly. Also you must pay attention to the speed of the shot which in many cases zeroes out the effects stated.

Also note, that using BHE WILL alter your straight stroke which now means that you also have to figure that out as well. Nothing beats time at the table which translates into experience.

Just like a pitcher throwing a straight ball and then learning to throw curves and such. The more he does it, the more he can do with it and he feels the control. However if no one ever showed him how to throw the curve, the learning process is longer.

 

[CaptainJR]

Imagine if you and I , using the same cue, were to line up on a 1/2 ball shot using 1 tip OE. If you used BHE and I used the parallel method, we would both arrive at the same position.
The dif bewteen the two is the original point of aim- the final cueing angle will be the same.

Gabber

You are absolutely correct Gabber. If you could film them both from above the table without seeing the people, it would look identical. It is a matter of perception. BHE allows you to use the same aiming point that you would use without english. Parallel english requires you to change the aiming point.

Colin is talking about swiping here though. I use it but apply it a little differently than most. (see above post). Very effective way to increase the amount of spin without increasing the speed of the cue ball.

I'm not convinced of the benefit of reverse swiping yet but I'll try it.

 

[Gabber]

I know this has been brought up before, but I feel that your use of the term "parallel english" and "backhand english" are completely different than what has been written on the internet for several years.

They can't possibly end up in the same position.

Fred

I cant see why they would be different! Take the straight shot example. If we both are hitting to same spot on the QB, we must be cueing at the same angle.


In my mind I am shooting parallel, but it doesnt look like it. It all deoends on your point of reference..
scroll down to squirt.

Gabber

 

[BRKNRUN]

Imagine if you and I , using the same cue, were to line up on a 1/2 ball shot using 1 tip OE. If you used BHE and I used the parallel method, we would both arrive at the same position.
The dif bewteen the two is the original point of aim- the final cueing angle will be the same.

Gabber

That is not true....

The cue is striking the CB at a different angle....

Here is an exaggerated way of showing you that there is a difference in where the CB ball goes...set up to apply right hand PE.......now leaving your tip in the "exact" spot that you have chosen on the cue ball....swing the BUTT end of your cue to the RIGHT until the tip is on the center horizontal axis....

The CB will not go to the same place....

 

[Cornerman]

I cant see why they would be different! Take the straight shot example. If we both are hitting to same spot on the QB, we must be cueing at the same angle.


In my mind I am shooting parallel, but it doesnt look like it. It all deoends on your point of reference..
scroll down to squirt.

Gabber

Then what you are describing as "Parallel English" is not what the vast majority of posters and instructors have written as parallel english.

Here's how I have understood the difference.

For normal high squirt cues, the pivot point is near the bridge hand. You could use backhand english to compensate for squirt.

For low squirt cues, the pivot point is near the grip hand. Because of the low squirt, you can use parallel english for most shots. That is, the aiming line with english is parallel to the aim line with center ball. That's why it's called parallel english. People have used this term as I've described it for decades. I can site several references.

Fred

 

[jsp]

Then what you are describing as "Parallel English" is not what the vast majority of posters and instructors have written as parallel english.

Here's how I have understood the difference.

For normal high squirt cues, the pivot point is near the bridge hand. You could use backhand english to compensate for squirt.

For low squirt cues, the pivot point is near the grip hand. Because of the low squirt, you can use parallel english for most shots. That is, the aiming line with english is parallel to the aim line with center ball. That's why it's called parallel english. People have used this term as I've described it for decades. I can site several references.

Fred

If this is the true definition of parallel english, that the aim line is always exactly parallel to the aim line with center ball, then I think it's a lousy definition. Any CB struck off center will have a certain amount of squirt, and the resulting CB trajectory will never be exactly parallel to the center ball aim line. Thus, parallel english, according to this definition, will ALWAYS give a CB trajectory that you're not intending.

So, what exactly do people call it when you shift your parallel aim line to compensate for squirt? SCPPE...or squirt-compensated pseudo-parallel english?

 

[Cornerman]

If this is the true definition of parallel english, that the aim line is always exactly parallel to the aim line with center ball, then I think it's a lousy definition. Any CB struck off center will have a certain amount of squirt, and the resulting CB trajectory will never be exactly parallel to the center ball aim line. Thus, parallel english, according to this definition, will ALWAYS give a CB trajectory that you're not intending.

True, to those who know about squirt, and we on the internet understand this today because of the great work several others did to make it understandable. However, for those that don't understand squirt, ignorance is bliss, and they'll continue making balls with what they call parallel english. Normally, a player who has hits thousand/millions of balls will automatically compensate with a blend of speed and elevation.

This definition has been around long before internet posters have been talking about squirt. People assumed things like the cue ball did in fact squirt, but immediately went on a parallel line after the tip and ball released. This faux phenomenon has been called "the vector shift" among other things.

I'm not sure I'm making myself clear here. The term "parallel english" already has its own roots and definition. Surely we shouldn't change the definition on a whim.

So, what exactly do people call it when you shift your parallel aim line to compensate for squirt? SCPPE...or squirt-compensated pseudo-parallel english?

I don't know. Aiming/compensating by feel? I don't know of anyone who actually compensates by picking a new aimpoint, and doing a centerball and parallel shift. Maybe they do, but I've never met anyone who described what they do as such. Whatever the case, it can't be called Parallel English. That term is already taken.

Fred

 

[jsp]

I'm not sure I'm making myself clear here. The term "parallel english" already has its own roots and definition. Surely we shouldn't change the definition on a whim.

Point taken. I guess it's not that unreasonable to keep this exact definition of PE, since the "ghost ball" aiming methodology isn't exact as well...you'll always have to compensate for a certain degree of throw.

I'm still a relative newbie to the pool world, so it's nice to have someone be the key-master of traditional pool terminology.

 

[Colin Colenso]

If this is the true definition of parallel english, that the aim line is always exactly parallel to the aim line with center ball, then I think it's a lousy definition. Any CB struck off center will have a certain amount of squirt, and the resulting CB trajectory will never be exactly parallel to the center ball aim line. Thus, parallel english, according to this definition, will ALWAYS give a CB trajectory that you're not intending.

So, what exactly do people call it when you shift your parallel aim line to compensate for squirt? SCPPE...or squirt-compensated pseudo-parallel english?

Actually, I've been rethinking how parallel english can work:

It actually works on shots where the CB and OB are close together, from say 6" to 18" depending on bridge length and cue pivot point.

What happens is that the squirt is compensated by the spin induced throw.

The hand and cue angle IS different than the same shot played with BHE.

On longer shots parallel english becomes impractical I feel as the squirt component becomes much larger than any SIT.

 

[Flex]

BHE/ pivoting is IMO fundamentally sound. If anyone wants to find their Q's pivot-point and use that as a starting basis to learn to play with E, fine. The basis of the method is to cancel -out squirt and get the QB to go straight,yes? I can understand the usefulness of this but a reverse swipe?
I,m not convinced that 'swipeing' [ sp?]actually does what people claim it does. I,m not even sure that what they think is happening , is really happening. Anyway, swiping means holding/ steering the Q thru the QB instead of letting go ,and thats just wrong.



It ok to experiment but Colin is pretty soon going to be playing in the [ maybe] most important tourney of his life.
IMO he can better be practicing /perfecting what he does know[ he has been playing for some years] and not finding out what he doesnt know. I,m not trying to knock the guy, I,m trying to help him. At the end of day, its just my 2ct.
BTW, the shot Colin gave is about the easiest shot there is to play with E......... and Flex has only been trying this method for only one day!

G...

Actually, Gabber, I've been tinkering with BHE for quite some time, but it was only when Colin suggested that I try shooting 3/4 and half ball shots and trying to determine where the pivot point was for those shots that I really worked on it. I've posted my results on another thread, and I must say that this BHE really does work well for me. How well? Well, I suppose the only way you'll really find out is if we match up sometime and see how things work out...

By the way, the length of time someone has been doing something does not necessarily indicate their proficiency performing the task...

Also, I shoot with PE with a shifted aim point too. About a week ago, I attended but didn't play at the Viking 9 Ball tour in the Chicago area. Someone there, who told me he doesn't fear going up against Earl Strickland straight up, and told me once he laid a 7 pack on The Pearl, set up a shot with the object ball in the center of the table, right between the two center pockets, and the cue ball about 18 inches or so away from it. The two balls were aligned exactly for a perfect straight in shot into the side pocket. He asked me to shoot the object ball into the side pocket, but to shoot it with extreme right hand english, and to make the cue ball go to the right, down table for a shot on the short rail. He handed me his cue, which is a high end Viking, and within 3 shots I had adjusted to the squirt of his cue/shaft and was consistently potting the OB and getting shape as he requested. I did that using parallel english. He told me I wasn't getting the requested spot in 9 ball from him... I wonder why

That shot by the way is no gimme. However.... let me set that exact same shot up and shoot it with BHE, and it's SO easy to get shape, it's almost scary. So, maybe I've been using BHE for a little longer than a day or two... In any case, the stuff works...

Thanks so much Colin for the ideas, and Fred too. You're both heroes to me!

Cheers!

Flex

 

[Gabber]

Then what you are describing as "Parallel English" is not what the vast majority of posters and instructors have written as parallel english.

Here's how I have understood the difference.

For normal high squirt cues, the pivot point is near the bridge hand. You could use backhand english to compensate for squirt.

For low squirt cues, the pivot point is near the grip hand. Because of the low squirt, you can use parallel english for most shots. That is, the aiming line with english is parallel to the aim line with center ball. That's why it's called parallel english. People have used this term as I've described it for decades. I can site several references.

Fred

Parallel to what?

example;
I line up center ball for a 1/2 ball shot thats 3ft away.[ center to outside edge]. If I now want to play 2 tips OE and I move my cue 2 tips parallel to the left and shoot- I will miss. I will miss because of squirt. I will always hit the ball too thick.
Lets say I always hit it 1/4 ball too thick.
Knowing this, one can use the parallel method.
The parallel shooter will automatically line up the shot 1/4 ball too thin, then move parallel to this line to apply the spin and just shoot. The squirt factor has already been calculated into the shot.

I still think that in the end, both cue positions will be the same .

Gabber

 

[Colin Colenso]

Parallel can work

As I mentioned briefly a few posts back, I now realise parallel english can work, though over a limited range of shots compared to BHE with adjusted bridge lengths.

Parallel English can work well for closer in shots with CB to OB separation of 6 to 14 inches approximately, depending on one's cue.

It works when the squirt is cancelled out by the Spin Induced Throw. As both vary with speed and angle of hit off center there is some room for manipulation.

BHE has a wider range and is more useful for longer shots as it also changes the cue line which can cancel the effect of squirt.

With 2 balls, 12" apart, they can be played both ways from different bridge positions and cue angles as shown in the diagram below.

 

[Snapshot9]

Yes they are ...

Fred and Colin are AZB's official "Sr. Billichanic Engineers" .... lol

 

[Cornerman]

Parallel to what?

Parallel to what would be a centerball aim, no compensation. Understand that I don't endorse this method, nor am I saying this method works. But, many people swear that this is what they do.

I'm not sure at what point the definition on this board got mixed up. Maybe in your snooker background, you use the term Parallel English as you've described it. But, I thought that snooker players in general didn't teach squirt/deflection (maybe until recently). Is that incorrect?

example;
I line up center ball for a 1/2 ball shot thats 3ft away.[ center to outside edge]. If I now want to play 2 tips OE and I move my cue 2 tips parallel to the left and shoot- I will miss. I will miss because of squirt. I will always hit the ball too thick.

Agreed, unless you use some other compensation like blending the speed and angle for swerve and throw or use a low squirt shaft. For the "feel only" players, they must do something like this (blend speed and elevation) or else, as you say, they would miss. After hitting millions of shots, this is how they "feel it."

Because a low squirt shaft has ... less squirt, the blend might be less , depending on the speed required of the shot. That is, most people who grew up believing they use parallel english will find more success immediately using a low squirt shaft. That's why people swear by it.

Fred <~~~ doesn't swear by it.