Rhythm - Cadence

[Cameron Smith]

Vijay Siing has said in clinics that he counts during his swing. He orginally started to count 1 - 2. The one at the start and the two on contact. He then started saying 17 on his swing becaus he started rushing the 1,2 count, but he can't rush the 17 which has the same rythm of the 1,2 count.

I know that is golf but there are many lessons in golf that can be carried over to pool.

I've never been a fan of counting myself, even as a musician I have only had my students use metronomes if they don't have a natural feel for rythm. I just thought it made players too mechanical, and they couldn't get a feel for improvisation.

 

[renard]

Ok, for all you guys that have your computers where your pool tables are try this. http://www.metronomeonline.com/

Bring the metronome up at a count that you think would be a comfortable pace. Start running some racks or straight pool which is great. If the pace of the metronome seems a little slow or fast to the way your playing adjust it. Soon you will have a very close represntative rhythm. From there it is easy to find music that has that same beat.

This has helped me as poolteacher has commented that having that favorite song in your head gets you into that "rhythm groove." Do I actually count out? No.

It goes something like this. First when I am making decisions rhythm is not involved (at least I am not aware.) I am playing a movie in my head of what the shot would look like and the position I would recieve before I shoot it. Then its time to jam, going thru my preshot routine in my own preset rhythm (which is slower than most others.)

Word of caution: Sometimes when you listen to music you just feel like listening to slow music, sometimes fast.
Playing pool is the same. You may never find that one perfect rhythmic beat. And you will know if it is a night for a faster or slower tempo.

Sometimes you will hear people complain about whats on the jukebox. With comments like, "I can't play with this !@#$ playing!" We even had someguys plug in $20 worth of bluegrass to throw us off our games (didn't work.) But have you ever noticed some nights when you play the background music gets a little irritating? It is running counter to your natural rhythm.

 

[unknownpro]

Interesting, unknownpro. I'll keep that in mind.

Just to clear this up though, I was not suggesting visualization during the shot, but prior to it, as you said. I mentioned it to imply that any thought about mechanincs, routine, etc. during competition could be a distraction.

Don't hesitate to correct me. Thanks.

I misread you before as saying you shouldn't count your strokes, where you said "steps".

Yeah, you're right, everything should be second nature, but counting your strokes is fine, imo. Visualize the shot in its entirety, then the stroke to make that happen. Trust your decision and focus on completing the stroke as you intended as you shoot instead of the path of the balls.

I focus on only the speed and direction of the cue stick when I'm down on the ball and count my strokes so that I don't think about anything else but that and know exactly when I'm hitting the shot with no doubt.

Efren's last warmup stroke is linked to his final stroke with no pause between them. His pause is before the last warmup stroke and his motion looks jerky (almost) because that last warmup stroke is nearer shot speed and he pulls back and hits through with no pause after that. I think (guessing) that he focuses more on speed of his cue on that last warmup stroke than anyone else who plays the game and the long bridge gives lots of room to get the stick to the correct speed before impact.

I don't know if he counts his strokes, but believe he's committed to the timing of the shot on the final warmup stroke and depends on that for his mastery of the cueball. (These are just my opinions from watching.)

That's what I try to do. My 3rd and last warmup stroke is really the first half of the real shot, giving me a chance to commit to the speed of the shot.

unknownpro

 

[Colin Colenso]

I misread you before as saying you shouldn't count your strokes, where you said "steps".

Yeah, you're right, everything should be second nature, but counting your strokes is fine, imo. Visualize the shot in its entirety, then the stroke to make that happen. Trust your decision and focus on completing the stroke as you intended as you shoot instead of the path of the balls.

I focus on only the speed and direction of the cue stick when I'm down on the ball and count my strokes so that I don't think about anything else but that and know exactly when I'm hitting the shot with no doubt.

Efren's last warmup stroke is linked to his final stroke with no pause between them. His pause is before the last warmup stroke and his motion looks jerky (almost) because that last warmup stroke is nearer shot speed and he pulls back and hits through with no pause after that. I think (guessing) that he focuses more on speed of his cue on that last warmup stroke than anyone else who plays the game and the long bridge gives lots of room to get the stick to the correct speed before impact.

I don't know if he counts his strokes, but believe he's committed to the timing of the shot on the final warmup stroke and depends on that for his mastery of the cueball. (These are just my opinions from watching.)

That's what I try to do. My 3rd and last warmup stroke is really the first half of the real shot, giving me a chance to commit to the speed of the shot.

unknownpro

Good insights unknownpro!

Can you tell me how or whether you separate the stroking goals of aim and speed. For example, is their as stage at which you commit to the line of shot, the line the cue must take through the CB, commit to this, then make your 3 sfeather trokes which are purely commited to guaging the speed of the shot?

How do you break these into parts or are they all mixed into one image and a complete stroke solution estimated from that?

I used to imagine the whole shot as one visualization. Now I determine initial aim, adjust for spin/speed, execute with focus on obtaining CB direction and speed. (On many shots the 2nd adjustment part isn't required, but on each shot I separate parts 1 and 3 in my decision making.

Colin

 

[ShootingArts]

cadance and tempo

Colin,

Cadence and tempo aren't restrictive. The cadence remains the same even if the tempo changes almost constantly. This provides structure and allows your unconscious or subconscious minds to synchronize with your conscience mind. The hundreds or millions of things that have to happen in your body all require some amount of time. If they aren't synchronized you won't perform well.

Think of dancing and the flow around the dance floor.

Hu

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,

Cadence and tempo aren't restrictive. The cadence remains the same even if the tempo changes almost constantly. This provides structure and allows your unconscious or subconscious minds to synchronize with your conscience mind. The hundreds or millions of things that have to happen in your body all require some amount of time. If they aren't synchronized you won't perform well.

Think of dancing and the flow around the dance floor.

Hu

Hi Hu,
I didn't make such a general statement that Cadence and tempo are restrictive...just that people could go too far with trying to incorporate it.

Clearly dancing to music inspires harmonious movement. But I am suspicious of the religiosity afforded to vibration in general. There is a mystical belief among some that vibration is all...the central key to the universe.

Such as light is vibration, sound is vibration, yin and yang are two states vibrating as one, all matter is vibration, hence the soul is linked in vibration to the whole universe and through music and vibration we might become one with the universe.

I find it all a bit specious (sounds reasonable but holds no merit upon closer investigation).

I'm not saying some of this stuff won't work. In fact, I'm interested in clear evidence or meanigful arguments as to why it could work. Rather than just accept it on face value.

I'm playing the devil's advocate here, not an antagonist as some seem to think. A devil's advocate is often a proponent who asks the tough questions that one in opposition might ask...so as the idea can be investigated more deeply / critically.

 

[chefjeff]

Who here has actually developed and integrated a cadence into their game?
What I mean is, do you count to a beat when you play, like "1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4"?
If so, how long did it take you to find your cadence?

And on another note, does anyone know of any pros that count to a beat when they play?

IF you're talking about your overall playing cadence, then no, I do not have one, as it is solely determined by the thoughts and actions I must take to execute the shot at hand. It can be no other way in reality. It takes a certain amount of time to do what I do before, during, and after each shot.

IF you're talking about your actual STROKE cadence, then, yes I have one. I developed one patterned after the familiar golf swing rhythm, the waltz: back, 2, 3, down, 2,3. My pool stroke cadence (not a waltz, btw) is for three practice strokes: With the first stroke I say, "This is good..." and with the second I say, "This is better..." and with the third I say, "This is best" and then I ease into my backswing and hit the cueball on the next stroke. Each practice stroke brings me closer and closer into the exact line and speed (mostly speed, as the line was mostly pre-determined by stance, grip, etc.). I rarely consciously count anymore, but when out of stroke, this self-talk rhythm quickens my recovery.

Poetry/songs/rhythms help bypass the conscious mind and go directly to the subconsious mind (I'm using these terms for familiarity--clarification may be needed). That makes them useful, but also potentially dangerous, much like fire. Don't touch a hot stove, just cook with it.

Jeff Livingston

 

[ShootingArts]

people can go overboard with anything

Colin,

Folks can go overboard with anything and I don't think that you can simply get in tune with the vibration of the universe and do anything without effort. What I have found that holds true across many sports is that after you do the grunt work of learning all of the basics and many advanced techniques at some point you get to where you can consciously decide "I want this outcome" and then let the conscience kick back and watch for problems from one tiny corner while you perform the actions needed without any conscience thought process.

When I am shooting like this it is often true to say that my entire stay at a table is one continuous action regardless of how many shots I take. Much like you make many corrections on a crowded dance floor I can make many minor adjustments without breaking the flow of my run. If I totally lose shape and have to evaluate a difficult shot that I didn't plan to make the conscience mind will interrupt and redirect and fade from the scene again.

It is obvious that I have hit a different gear when I am playing like this. I am moving around the table in one smooth flow and as soon as I have completed my follow through for one shot I am moving into position for my next shot. I don't keep the same tempo from day to day and maybe not even all evening and I am not committed to fire on a certain beat. What I am is tuned to my body and it's rhythm and I shoot when it tells me that everything is right. Assuming the four beat count just as an example, it would feel extremely unnatural to fire on one or three however I would be at home on two or four. If I don't shoot on two or four of this measure there are always more measures. However should I totally ignore my body and shoot a shot before my body feels right there is a fair chance that I can miss the easiest of shots.

Purely as an intimidation move I practiced shooting in motion for several years when I was young. I could hit better than 90% of my best game without ever pausing or setting. I deliberately circled the table in the direction and time needed to allow the cue ball to get stopped and as soon as it stopped my stick was usually already in midstroke. I circled slightly out from the table and my one count was as I stepped into the shot and started to bend over with my cue headed backwards. On two my stick was in forward motion and my bridge was only now making contact with the table. Pool became an action sport and my body started making all necessary corrections as I stepped forward. All my unconscious skill steps were triggered when I stepped into the shot as I had thousands of times before.

This is what I mean when I speak of cadence and tempo. You have to give your body and unconscious mind the same keys to react over and over and do it at a pace that gives your body time to function. This is the real reason that I think a routine or cadence is important for everyone. I also think that it is far better to have a cadence and flow to your whole stay at the table than to have a bunch of individual one shot routines.

Much the same thing can be found in books about pretty much any action sport and another interesting thought I have read is that absolutely nothing starts in the conscience mind. Even your worded thoughts are first processed at a lower level. I can't prove that this is accurate but it does seem reasonable to me.

When all is said and done, theory is well and good but all I know for sure is that my winning percentage soars when I am shooting and gliding around the table without any conscience thought or hesitations. When I shoot and wait to see the shot fall and the cue ball move into the next position before confirming I will shoot the planned shot I feel awkward and play poorly.

Hu

Hi Hu,
I didn't make such a general statement that Cadence and tempo are restrictive...just that people could go too far with trying to incorporate it.

Clearly dancing to music inspires harmonious movement. But I am suspicious of the religiosity afforded to vibration in general. There is a mystical belief among some that vibration is all...the central key to the universe.

Such as light is vibration, sound is vibration, yin and yang are two states vibrating as one, all matter is vibration, hence the soul is linked in vibration to the whole universe and through music and vibration we might become one with the universe.

I find it all a bit specious (sounds reasonable but holds no merit upon closer investigation).

I'm not saying some of this stuff won't work. In fact, I'm interested in clear evidence or meanigful arguments as to why it could work. Rather than just accept it on face value.

I'm playing the devil's advocate here, not an antagonist as some seem to think. A devil's advocate is often a proponent who asks the tough questions that one in opposition might ask...so as the idea can be investigated more deeply / critically.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,

Folks can go overboard with anything and I don't think that you can simply get in tune with the vibration of the universe and do anything without effort. What I have found that holds true across many sports is that after you do the grunt work of learning all of the basics and many advanced techniques at some point you get to where you can consciously decide "I want this outcome" and then let the conscience kick back and watch for problems from one tiny corner while you perform the actions needed without any conscience thought process.

When I am shooting like this it is often true to say that my entire stay at a table is one continuous action regardless of how many shots I take. Much like you make many corrections on a crowded dance floor I can make many minor adjustments without breaking the flow of my run. If I totally lose shape and have to evaluate a difficult shot that I didn't plan to make the conscience mind will interrupt and redirect and fade from the scene again.

It is obvious that I have hit a different gear when I am playing like this. I am moving around the table in one smooth flow and as soon as I have completed my follow through for one shot I am moving into position for my next shot. I don't keep the same tempo from day to day and maybe not even all evening and I am not committed to fire on a certain beat. What I am is tuned to my body and it's rhythm and I shoot when it tells me that everything is right. Assuming the four beat count just as an example, it would feel extremely unnatural to fire on one or three however I would be at home on two or four. If I don't shoot on two or four of this measure there are always more measures. However should I totally ignore my body and shoot a shot before my body feels right there is a fair chance that I can miss the easiest of shots.

Purely as an intimidation move I practiced shooting in motion for several years when I was young. I could hit better than 90% of my best game without ever pausing or setting. I deliberately circled the table in the direction and time needed to allow the cue ball to get stopped and as soon as it stopped my stick was usually already in midstroke. I circled slightly out from the table and my one count was as I stepped into the shot and started to bend over with my cue headed backwards. On two my stick was in forward motion and my bridge was only now making contact with the table. Pool became an action sport and my body started making all necessary corrections as I stepped forward. All my unconscious skill steps were triggered when I stepped into the shot as I had thousands of times before.

This is what I mean when I speak of cadence and tempo. You have to give your body and unconscious mind the same keys to react over and over and do it at a pace that gives your body time to function. This is the real reason that I think a routine or cadence is important for everyone. I also think that it is far better to have a cadence and flow to your whole stay at the table than to have a bunch of individual one shot routines.

Much the same thing can be found in books about pretty much any action sport and another interesting thought I have read is that absolutely nothing starts in the conscience mind. Even your worded thoughts are first processed at a lower level. I can't prove that this is accurate but it does seem reasonable to me.

When all is said and done, theory is well and good but all I know for sure is that my winning percentage soars when I am shooting and gliding around the table without any conscience thought or hesitations. When I shoot and wait to see the shot fall and the cue ball move into the next position before confirming I will shoot the planned shot I feel awkward and play poorly.

Hu

Hi Hu,
I appreciate the detailed post...sorry for the delayed reply.

I was planning a bit more detailed reply that delved into the workings of the mind, but rushed for time right now. Suffice it to say that the workings of the subconscious / conscious thing is a bit tricky to grasp. The mind and thinking is a complex thing.

For sure tempo and repetition, as well as rhyme have an effect on both implanting and recalling memory. Chanting and positive affirmations are examples of this.

I have experimented with a rhyming chant while playing in the past. I might try some more...it did seem to have some positive effects.

Thanks for the good thinking material.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

IF you're talking about your overall playing cadence, then no, I do not have one, as it is solely determined by the thoughts and actions I must take to execute the shot at hand. It can be no other way in reality. It takes a certain amount of time to do what I do before, during, and after each shot.

IF you're talking about your actual STROKE cadence, then, yes I have one. I developed one patterned after the familiar golf swing rhythm, the waltz: back, 2, 3, down, 2,3. My pool stroke cadence (not a waltz, btw) is for three practice strokes: With the first stroke I say, "This is good..." and with the second I say, "This is better..." and with the third I say, "This is best" and then I ease into my backswing and hit the cueball on the next stroke. Each practice stroke brings me closer and closer into the exact line and speed (mostly speed, as the line was mostly pre-determined by stance, grip, etc.). I rarely consciously count anymore, but when out of stroke, this self-talk rhythm quickens my recovery.

Poetry/songs/rhythms help bypass the conscious mind and go directly to the subconsious mind (I'm using these terms for familiarity--clarification may be needed). That makes them useful, but also potentially dangerous, much like fire. Don't touch a hot stove, just cook with it.

Jeff Livingston

Hi Jeff,
Always good to read your posts.

Re the mind: I think much of what is refered to as the subconscious mind can actually be described as memory. Memory is hard to force, it kind of flows into us when our mindset is welcoming.

Also, some things which are said to come from the conscious mind are actually coming from an aspect of the mind to which I refer to as the feeling mind.

Feeling is half of a higher aspect of the mind, the other half being desire. Sometimes feeling triggers and stimulates desire, this often leads to doubt. Othertimes we make an intentional desire and that triggers feeling so as to provide us with what we need to complete the desire.

Anyway, something along those lines if your get my metaphysical drift

Colin

 

[Gage]

Hi Jeff,
Always good to read your posts.

Re the mind: I think much of what is refered to as the subconscious mind can actually be described as memory. Memory is hard to force, it kind of flows into us when our mindset is welcoming.

Also, some things which are said to come from the conscious mind are actually coming from an aspect of the mind to which I refer to as the feeling mind.

Feeling is half of a higher aspect of the mind, the other half being desire. Sometimes feeling triggers and stimulates desire, this often leads to doubt. Othertimes we make an intentional desire and that triggers feeling so as to provide us with what we need to complete the desire.

Anyway, something along those lines if your get my metaphysical drift

Colin

Colin,

A lot of what you wrote about how the mind works, especially rhythm, is explained pretty thoroughly in Pleasures of Small Motions. I was wondering if you have read this book?

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,

A lot of what you wrote about how the mind works, especially rhythm, is explained pretty thoroughly in Pleasures of Small Motions. I was wondering if you have read this book?

Gage,
Unfortunately I don't have the book as yet...it's on my to read list.

 

[3kushn]

Colin,
Have you ever played against someone who was very slow, or very quick? Did you have to fight the tendency to start playing at the same pace? Knowing your own natural rhythm and sticking with it just brings more consistency to every shot. Sure, some shots take a little more thought, but once you know what you are going to do, you should be able to go through your entire shooting routine at pretty much the same tempo. You see people all the time that are struggling, and you know it's because they are out of their rhythm.
Steve

What I've been told by several qualified instructors is that all your decisions (aim, speed, english...) are made while standing up. After you get down the only thing you need to think about is delivering the stroke you decided on. Any questions arise? Stand back up. With this preshot routine consistant rhythm can be achieved for every shot.

 

[JoeyA]

I ran across this thread yesterday and am very glad I did. I purchased the book yesterday and spent an hour reading the first few chapters and had to write and thank you publicly Corey. While I am just getting started with this book it is apparent that it will not just benefit your pool/golf game, but your life and everyone around you. I don't think the book is written for those who are looking for a reason why they haven't or can't succeed but for those who are truly looking for a way but have not had the ultimate success they desire. The author explains the acquisition of talent in a manner that will have you nodding your head, hopefully. Can't wait to get back to reading it.
MUCHO GRACIAS!
JoeyA

It is all about your pre-shot routine. That is where that rhythm/cadence helps. If you train a certain way, then in competition trust your training, you will fall into your trained pre-shot routine rhythm.

All shots take about the same time (number of warm up strokes etc...) to execute as long as you took the time to decide on a choice and commit to that action (watch Efren, Buddy, Nick, etc.........).

I strongly suggest to all that play at an A level that wish to improve their game, read and more importantly, put into practice the teachings and wisdom in "Golf is not a game of perfect" by Bob Rotella.

I was turned on to this book by Troy Frank, who was turned on to it by Jeremy Jones (I think). My copy has also gone out to Max Eberle and David Hemmah. We all agree unanimously, this book is "the nuts"!

 

[JoeyA]

Another hour into the book and I realized that bob Rotella wrote two books, Golf is not a game of perfect and Life/Golf is not a game of perfect with a X through the word golf. Finding your real talent and making it work for you. If the original book is nearly as good as the second one, it is a treasure. This book is one is one that young men should read. It could shorten the learning curve for success in most anything.

 

[unknownpro]

Good insights unknownpro!

Can you tell me how or whether you separate the stroking goals of aim and speed. For example, is their as stage at which you commit to the line of shot, the line the cue must take through the CB, commit to this, then make your 3 sfeather trokes which are purely commited to guaging the speed of the shot?

How do you break these into parts or are they all mixed into one image and a complete stroke solution estimated from that?

I used to imagine the whole shot as one visualization. Now I determine initial aim, adjust for spin/speed, execute with focus on obtaining CB direction and speed. (On many shots the 2nd adjustment part isn't required, but on each shot I separate parts 1 and 3 in my decision making.

Colin

I try to visualize the entire shot beforehand including english, stroke, and position so I can get down on the ball in the line of the stroke instead of the cueball path. My first two (slower) practice strokes I focus on the exact line of the stick to a target spot down table. Then I pause near the cueball while keeping focused on my target and visualize the speed of the stroke. I take one more practice stroke, then pull back with no hesitation and hit through.

The long, loopy, Philipino style stroke allows more of a pendulum effect on the last practice stroke and then delivery. The practice stroke is started forward while imagining the actual shot speed, but halted as it starts so that the arm naturally decellerates forward and re-accellerates backwards by itself into the pullback for the final hitting stroke. The forward stroke benefits from this pendulum action also so that it starts quickly and levels out at speed before hitting the cueball. I don't try to accellerate through the cueball, instead allowing the cue to glide through the cueball without muscle.

The forearm passing vertical before impact probably makes this technique easier, I'm not sure if mine does or not.

Better speed control results from the linking of the final practice stroke and the actual stroke. It is, in effect, one long stroke that is twice as long in time, with the speed gearing up quickly and then flowing smoothly, giving you plenty of time to make sure you are at speed at impact.

I also do as you said concentrate on the speed, spin and direction of the cueball as it should travel towards its first rail or just its first few inches after contact with the object ball in order to gage the speed of the stroke before getting down on the shot and maybe during the pause.

unknownpro

 

[lewdo26]

I try to visualize the entire shot beforehand including english, stroke, and position so I can get down on the ball in the line of the stroke instead of the cueball path. My first two (slower) practice strokes I focus on the exact line of the stick to a target spot down table. Then I pause near the cueball while keeping focused on my target and visualize the speed of the stroke. I take one more practice stroke, then pull back with no hesitation and hit through.

The long, loopy, Philipino style stroke allows more of a pendulum effect on the last practice stroke and then delivery. The practice stroke is started forward while imagining the actual shot speed, but halted as it starts so that the arm naturally decellerates forward and re-accellerates backwards by itself into the pullback for the final hitting stroke. The forward stroke benefits from this pendulum action also so that it starts quickly and levels out at speed before hitting the cueball. I don't try to accellerate through the cueball, instead allowing the cue to glide through the cueball without muscle.

The forearm passing vertical before impact probably makes this technique easier, I'm not sure if mine does or not.

Better speed control results from the linking of the final practice stroke and the actual stroke. It is, in effect, one long stroke that is twice as long in time, with the speed gearing up quickly and then flowing smoothly, giving you plenty of time to make sure you are at speed at impact.

I also do as you said concentrate on the speed, spin and direction of the cueball as it should travel towards its first rail or just its first few inches after contact with the object ball in order to gage the speed of the stroke before getting down on the shot and maybe during the pause.

unknownpro

This is beyond interesting. I'm learning quite a bit from this thread. It's funny, I seem to get better results if I don't focus on stroke speed at all when I'm down on the shot. Just the line and the target. If I really take the time to visualize the shot in detail during my standing address, it seems like I can entirely focus on pocketing the ball and the cueball falls into position subconsciously.

Actually, now that I think of it, what I just said may not be entirely true. When I'm shooting my best I have a longish pause both before the final backstroke, and before the delivery, and it does seem like a "remind" myself of the speed of the shot, during the back-to-forward pause.

These discussions about routine and sighting interest me because they are so subjective, and yet so important.

 

[unknownpro]

This is beyond interesting. I'm learning quite a bit from this thread. It's funny, I seem to get better results if I don't focus on stroke speed at all when I'm down on the shot. Just the line and the target. If I really take the time to visualize the shot in detail during my standing address, it seems like I can entirely focus on pocketing the ball and the cueball falls into position subconsciously.

Actually, now that I think of it, what I just said may not be entirely true. When I'm shooting my best I have a longish pause both before the final backstroke, and before the delivery, and it does seem like a "remind" myself of the speed of the shot, during the back-to-forward pause.

These discussions about routine and sighting interest me because they are so subjective, and yet so important.

Your routine can be whatever works for you, but sighting, imo, is not subjective at all.

That's why the speed and length of stroke is so important, because aiming your cue is the easiest part. Being sure to stroke all the way through each shot at the right speed so that your deflection is consistent and there's no curve allows you to pinpoint your aim.

When you miss a ball, the tendency is to adjust your aim next time. But if your stroke was off, you may be adjusting off of the correct line.

Everyone says players miss because they shoot too hard, but imo, most shots are missed because of letting up on your stroke. Then curve or lack of deflection, or massive throw will cause the miss. The best way to prevent that is to play the shot in a way that allows you to hit a good margin over the minimum speed at which the shot will curve. Then if you are a little off, you are just a little far or short on the same line.

On slower shots with spin, it's sort of backwards. A slow stroke with a lot of spin must be stroked through far enough to get the intended deflection, so you must be sure it's slow enough to allow a full follow through.

unknownpro

 

[lewdo26]

Everyone says players miss because they shoot too hard, but imo, most shots are missed because of letting up on your stroke. Then curve or lack of deflection, or massive throw will cause the miss. The best way to prevent that is to play the shot in a way that allows you to hit a good margin over the minimum speed at which the shot will curve. Then if you are a little off, you are just a little far or short on the same line.

On slower shots with spin, it's sort of backwards. A slow stroke with a lot of spin must be stroked through far enough to get the intended deflection, so you must be sure it's slow enough to allow a full follow through.

unknownpro

Now here's a question, though I'm getting way off topic.

Usually, there is that relationship between speed and spin. The more you load it up, the softer the shot. The closer to center, the more speed you can put into the shot.

How do you adjust your stroke length for a softer shot with lots of spin? You mention a full follow through on that sort of shot. What does that mean as far as your backstroke. Do you use a short backstroke and still follow through all the way?