Unless Ernie Trade Marked the ring work or got a Patent on any design in any cue he builds Ernie has no chance of winning a case in any court room.
But understanding Ernie's complaint and understanding his wishes is respectful.
Ring Work Replication
- Thread starter Mikey Town
- Start date
Unless Ernie Trade Marked the ring work or got a Patent on any design in any cue he builds Ernie has no chance of winning a case in any court room.
But understanding Ernie's complaint and understanding his wishes is respectful.
Taking pics of someone's cue didn't exactly deter someone from blatantly copying something from that cue.
Pure coincidence of course.
There have been a few Tad Martin-style knock-offs floating around.
SW Satin cue knock-offs.
How many DPK knock-offs ?
If they are not x-rayed , you probably couldn't tell.
Don't think for a minute, only fancy cues command good price in the market.
Some names have earned great hit reputation.
Hell, someone in the San Fran area had a fake sneaky pete by a small time maker.
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One of his anniversary cues was copied and passed around as the real one.
This is getting kinda old.
Here's a HYPOTHETICAL scenario
Customer requests one maker to make a cue like this model by another maker.
Sure, maker makes it.
Suddenly, that cue is being sold in Japan as the real thing.
Copied maker calls around and finds out who made it.
The maker who made it claims he did not put his ( copied maker's ) logo on the cue.
Claims the buyer had someone else put the logo on the cue.
Copied maker is still pissed b/c his anniversary cue was copied.
Copying maker is ruined in the collector world.
All hypothetical btw but you get the drift.
I'm just presenting a scenario.
Not opinions on this b/c it's can of worms already.
One of the best makers around said, we all borrow from each other.
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Gainey Q's
Registered
Copy Maker
If a customer came and asked me to make a cue like another makers cue I would NOT make it as an exact copy. My Logo would be on that cue and I would strongly suggest the customer to change something about that cue to make it "his". I understand we are talking about ring work here and maybe if a pic of just the ring work would have been shown instead of the entire cue the responses might have been a little different. However, if possible I would start with talking with the original craftsman who made the ring work. Then explain to him that you understand he is not taking anymore orders and ask him if he minded if you got another cue maker to build you a cue but including ring work very similar to his. In my opinion going straight to the original cue maker and letting HIM know your desires shows him more respect than just getting someone else to "Copy" his ring work. You never know, he just might be the type of guy to appreciate such a gesture and say that he has no problem with that. Thank you for asking first. Then you will have the ONLY correct answer, and after that if you "Copy" the ring work anyway you won't have to worry about if it was wrong to do so or not, because you would already know. This is just how I feel about it.
If a customer came and asked me to make a cue like another makers cue I would NOT make it as an exact copy. My Logo would be on that cue and I would strongly suggest the customer to change something about that cue to make it "his". I understand we are talking about ring work here and maybe if a pic of just the ring work would have been shown instead of the entire cue the responses might have been a little different. However, if possible I would start with talking with the original craftsman who made the ring work. Then explain to him that you understand he is not taking anymore orders and ask him if he minded if you got another cue maker to build you a cue but including ring work very similar to his. In my opinion going straight to the original cue maker and letting HIM know your desires shows him more respect than just getting someone else to "Copy" his ring work. You never know, he just might be the type of guy to appreciate such a gesture and say that he has no problem with that. Thank you for asking first. Then you will have the ONLY correct answer, and after that if you "Copy" the ring work anyway you won't have to worry about if it was wrong to do so or not, because you would already know. This is just how I feel about it.
Original design. Those are words you don't know the meaning of. Was Ernie the first person to use a deco ring like that? All squares inside two rings. No he wasn't. I don't know who was, but I can tell you I've seen enough pictures here on AZB to tell you that people have tried to copy that look already. What makes this a big deal? If a certain style is someones claim to fame, they should have it patented. But as I see it, all the famous, and well off cue makers don't make money from just the looks of the deco rings, but the overall construction of the cue.
Look at SW cues for example. How many companies have been formed just to copy the work of one company. Yet to this day SW does not have any decline in orders due to the knockoffs. Something has to be said about the whole quality of the cue, not just the look of it. Trying to say that the deco rings Ernie chooses to use in his cues should be unique to him, you've obviously chosen the wrong profession to be in.
Well you couldn't. Unless somehow to were to match the tapers he uses exactly. Then you got your own morals and ethics chomping away telling you "you're such a hack having to resort to making someone else's cue to make money." It's why knock-offs are sometimes real easy to spot. They just don't feel right. Does the SW style cue Andy Gilbert makes play or feel anything like an actually SW? If I made a merry widow that looked exactly like the Ginacue from the OP, would it feel the same in your hands? Hell no. But trying to say someone's style is in their rings, is a complete load of bs.
Yes I remember the thread from last year where someone got upset because the deco rings they used on their cues showed up on someone else's cue. And I will say this, if you think that a deco ring design is going to make or break your sales. Get better at cue making to begin with.
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That is exactly what I would want... Different cue, from a different maker, with that cue maker's logo on it, different joint, pin, butt cap, bumper, wrap, the wrap location would be a bit different... Hell, I even want Predator shafts. The only similarity would be the ring work. If the cue maker has a good idea of how to alter the ring work, while retaining the look I'm going for, I am open to suggestions.
OUCH, your tone suggests that you don't approve of my post.
This may take some time for me to recover..........OK, I'm over it.
Unless you're paying for posts, I couldn't care less what you think.
"Original design", were you looking for a specific definition?
It's easily found, please feel free to Google it.
Strange because everyone who has added to this thread up to this point at least understands the concept.
Is your definition different?
"you've obviously chosen the wrong profession to be in".
By golly, that's truly rich. NOW you tell me. I've been in this business for 25 yrs.
What ever will I do now?? Since I turned 65 in March of this year, about anything I want to.
You have absolutely no idea who I am or what I'm about. Let's leave it that way.
The rest of your ramblings aren't adding much to the thread. Got anything positive???
If you've got a point to make, please make it and please stop insulting people while reasoning
that it strengthens your position.
It doesn't.
KJ
Yes, I am behind a few machines right now, but not very far behind. Lead time is only a few weeks.
http://www.recollectioncues.com/gilbertnavajo.html.......does that ring work look familiar? An is this cue maker pretty popular?. Are Andy an Ernie good friends an share ringwork designs or is Andy a stealing designs from Ernie? Not only is this ring work the same style as ginas but its exactly the same inlay material, pattern, an rings. If ur a cuemaker in today's market u might as well understand that if u come up with what u think is an original artist design or structural design then u should probably try to have it legally patented. So like I said the first time to the gentleman who started this thread if the rings u desire are Ernie's an he can't make them for u an u have someone who can an will then as a customer u have the right. If ur not have it made to sell an make it out as a Gina then there is no problem.
I have built several matching set of cues to sell and for customers. I also get orders for matching break/jump,break and jump cues to match another cuemaker's playing cue. Several of these I have matched the ringwork.I have contacted several of the makers to get specs on the rings and some have even sent me a set of ring so I wouldn't have to make billets to use just in 1 or 2 cues. I haven't had any complaints from the other makers. I've also had customers ask for a cue built like another maker's cue and I decline. I tell them to call Gilbert,SouthWest,Gina or who ever's cue they want copied.
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Though they are the same materials, the ring designs are different. A cursory glance shows that the Gilbert is using black blocks as a design element in his ringwork to separate the ivory and silver blocks. Someone who has built ring billets would appreciate the subtleties.
That said, the OP asked what we thought and he's getting opinions from both cuemakers and customers. Some people have spent countless hours drafting and cutting ringwork. Others spend time replicating what looks good to them. I imagine that anyone devoting a significant amount of time developing "signature ringwork" would feel a little protective of it.
I'm not saying it is right or wrong to replicate Ginacue's ringwork. Everyone's got their own moral compass. Instead of having the "couldn't get the Ginacue" aura, a creative twist on the rings could be something to be proud of- and may wind up being more eye-appealing to the owner.
Makes one wonder what Frank Paradise would say if he were still
alive and kickin'
Dale
This debate will continue because there is no definitive answer.
There is only 'which side of the *moral compass you are on' and 'to what degree'.
It's a strong topic that spurs emotion and one well worth debating.
We've had this debate before, many times in fact and we're destined to have it again.
It's not about 'right or wrong' because there is none.
There is only personal commitment and where you stand on the issue.
My understanding(s) of the legal aspects are that once a design is introduced to the public,
it's in the public domain if you will and is therefore subject to be copied.
Particularly if legal protection wasn't sought and granted prior to it's introduction.
If that were the case in the cue-maker's world, we wouldn't be having this debate.
This issue is one in which CMs answer to a higher authority; respect.
Most CMs are very talented creatures. They could copy each others ring-work at will and many do.
It's not just ring-work but other design elements as well.
The point isn't CAN you copy this but WOULD you copy this?
In this thread a comparison was made btwn an Andy Gilbert cue and the aforementioned Gina cue.
With some degree of difficulty I found the Gilbert cue.
As someone who makes a fair amount of billets I can tell you, those rings are noticeably different.
Is the SIMILARITY deliberate or is their DIFFERENCE deliberate?
I believe that Mr. Gilbert could have gotten the duplication exact if he'd wanted to, but he didn't.
I believe the difference to be a matter of respect.
This is why this debate will continue because 'out of respect' is an element that the law does not consider.
Should the OP continue on his quest for exact duplication?
That's entirely up to him and the CM that he chooses to make the rings.
I suggested at the beginning of this thread that he contact Ernie to at least get his take on the matter.
A little diplomacy goes a long way.
KJ
There is only 'which side of the *moral compass you are on' and 'to what degree'.
It's a strong topic that spurs emotion and one well worth debating.
We've had this debate before, many times in fact and we're destined to have it again.
It's not about 'right or wrong' because there is none.
There is only personal commitment and where you stand on the issue.
My understanding(s) of the legal aspects are that once a design is introduced to the public,
it's in the public domain if you will and is therefore subject to be copied.
Particularly if legal protection wasn't sought and granted prior to it's introduction.
If that were the case in the cue-maker's world, we wouldn't be having this debate.
This issue is one in which CMs answer to a higher authority; respect.
Most CMs are very talented creatures. They could copy each others ring-work at will and many do.
It's not just ring-work but other design elements as well.
The point isn't CAN you copy this but WOULD you copy this?
In this thread a comparison was made btwn an Andy Gilbert cue and the aforementioned Gina cue.
With some degree of difficulty I found the Gilbert cue.
As someone who makes a fair amount of billets I can tell you, those rings are noticeably different.
Is the SIMILARITY deliberate or is their DIFFERENCE deliberate?
I believe that Mr. Gilbert could have gotten the duplication exact if he'd wanted to, but he didn't.
I believe the difference to be a matter of respect.
This is why this debate will continue because 'out of respect' is an element that the law does not consider.
Should the OP continue on his quest for exact duplication?
That's entirely up to him and the CM that he chooses to make the rings.
I suggested at the beginning of this thread that he contact Ernie to at least get his take on the matter.
A little diplomacy goes a long way.
KJ
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Hi everyone,
OP here... I just wanted to thank you all for your input on this topic. I didn't exactly expect the discussion that ensued, so it has been rather eye opening.
This weekend, I was able to find a cue maker that I will be moving forward with for my cue. We talked about a few ideas and I made some decisions on the ring work.
As much as I like the Gina ring work, I've decided to keep the size and spacing of the deco boxes as similar as possible. For the bordering rings, above and below, I will be going with double silver, as opposed to the single silver rings. I think that doubling the thickness of these will make it pop a bit more. We are also going to find a way to add some copper into the mix. It will work nicely with the other materials, and will also help to differentiate it from the standard ivory/silver pattern typically used in the Ginas.
Thanks again for all of the input on this topic.
Cheers,
Mike
OP here... I just wanted to thank you all for your input on this topic. I didn't exactly expect the discussion that ensued, so it has been rather eye opening.
This weekend, I was able to find a cue maker that I will be moving forward with for my cue. We talked about a few ideas and I made some decisions on the ring work.
As much as I like the Gina ring work, I've decided to keep the size and spacing of the deco boxes as similar as possible. For the bordering rings, above and below, I will be going with double silver, as opposed to the single silver rings. I think that doubling the thickness of these will make it pop a bit more. We are also going to find a way to add some copper into the mix. It will work nicely with the other materials, and will also help to differentiate it from the standard ivory/silver pattern typically used in the Ginas.
Thanks again for all of the input on this topic.
Cheers,
Mike