Robert Raiford visits Betmore's Basement- you have NO idea what you are missing

[Williebetmore]

Last week I was fortunate to host Robert Raiford (AZB forum member and billiards/physics expert) for several days in Betmore's Basement. It was at the insistence of a couple of the local pros, who swore that I would be captivated with his methods (and insisted on joining the festivities).

Robert has spent unbelieveable effort in coming up with methods to harness the known physical properties of the balls, cloth, table, and cushions into a method that allows EXTREMELY accurate pocketing, and EXTREMELY accurate prediction and control of the cue ball path after pocketing (or during kicking). I'm sure there is more, but I've only glimpsed a small portion.

I can tell you that once this information is published, it will revolutionize pool and billiard play (that is no overstatement, nothing like these methods currently exists).

Every serious students know many of the principles that the methods are based on (contact induced throw, cue ball spin, collision induced spin, cushions absorbing energy, cushions adding spin to balls, cloth reducing spin, etc., etc.). Unfortunately all we are told after learning these phenomena is to "play a lot" and "get a feel" for them. The very highest quality players in both pool and billiards can judge most of these factors very well; but spend a lifetime developing that judgment. Robert's methods can teach you to CALCULATE them with extreme accuracy. Truly unbelieveable.

While his methods will take some effort to learn, they are a huge shortcut to a high level of play for the serious student of the game. I'm very hopeful that he will publish this information very soon (as he does relatively little teaching to maximize time spent on refining the methods) - I will be first in line for a copy of the book.

I have been extremely fortunate to have a glimpse of his methods before they are published. I feel like the luckiest pool player in the world to have seen both Robert's work and Mark Wilson's book BEFORE publication. Both of these men have devoted a large portion of their lives and a huge amount of time and effort towards improving the game we all love. Mark's book should revolutionize the way students learn pool, and Robert's should revolutionize the way all cueists utilize the physical principles of the game. I wish them both great success; but really it is the game that will be the benefactor of their efforts.

Pool players looking for a significant advantage over their opponents would be wise to check these out as soon as available.

 

[Joe T]

Last week I was fortunate to host Robert Raiford (AZB forum member and billiards/physics expert) for several days in Betmore's Basement. It was at the insistence of a couple of the local pros, who swore that I would be captivated with his methods (and insisted on joining the festivities).

Robert has spent unbelieveable effort in coming up with methods to harness the known physical properties of the balls, cloth, table, and cushions into a method that allows EXTREMELY accurate pocketing, and EXTREMELY accurate prediction and control of the cue ball path after pocketing (or during kicking). I'm sure there is more, but I've only glimpsed a small portion.

I can tell you that once this information is published, it will revolutionize pool and billiard play (that is no overstatement, nothing like these methods currently exists).

Every serious students know many of the principles that the methods are based on (contact induced throw, cue ball spin, collision induced spin, cushions absorbing energy, cushions adding spin to balls, cloth reducing spin, etc., etc.). Unfortunately all we are told after learning these phenomena is to "play a lot" and "get a feel" for them. The very highest quality players in both pool and billiards can judge most of these factors very well; but spend a lifetime developing that judgment. Robert's methods can teach you to CALCULATE them with extreme accuracy. Truly unbelieveable.

While his methods will take some effort to learn, they are a huge shortcut to a high level of play for the serious student of the game. I'm very hopeful that he will publish this information very soon (as he does relatively little teaching to maximize time spent on refining the methods) - I will be first in line for a copy of the book.

I have been extremely fortunate to have a glimpse of his methods before they are published. I feel like the luckiest pool player in the world to have seen both Robert's work and Mark Wilson's book BEFORE publication. Both of these men have devoted a large portion of their lives and a huge amount of time and effort towards improving the game we all love. Mark's book should revolutionize the way students learn pool, and Robert's should revolutionize the way all cueists utilize the physical principles of the game. I wish them both great success; but really it is the game that will be the benefactor of their efforts.

Pool players looking for a significant advantage over their opponents would be wise to check these out as soon as available.

Thanks for the torture Willie!

 

[sydbarret]

did he offer you a million dollars for one night with your wife?

 

[Williebetmore]

Thanks for the torture Willie!

JT,
No torture intended. The material that RR has is so powerful, I believe that all teachers will REALLY benefit; especially those like yourself that have a deep and true interest in advancing the game. It will be like a new toy.

 

[LAlouie]

My eyes are going. I thought I read "Robert Redford".

 

[Joe T]

JT,
No torture intended. The material that RR has is so powerful, I believe that all teachers will REALLY benefit; especially those like yourself that have a deep and true interest in advancing the game. It will be like a new toy.

I believe ya thats why it is torture bud. Looking forward to it, any estimated release dates?

 

[uwate]

Its hard to overstate how strong this material is. Me and my buddy ray call Rob "sensei".

 

[336Robin]

Torture Ditto

Thanks for the torture Willie!

Im with JoeT. Why do you do this to us?

336Robin :thumbup:

 

[Williebetmore]

Im with JoeT. Why do you do this to us?

336Robin :thumbup:

Rob,
In a way I feel obligated to build a little "buzz" for things that I truly believe are groundbreaking advances.

You see so much "buzz" over the quick fixes (latest tech, latest voodoo aiming system, magic drill, etc.) that when something truly scientific and revolutionary is developed, I fear it will be lost in the background noise.

I'm quite hopeful that once Mark and Robert have their independent works published that I will never again hear someone on AZB say, " I just didn't have the natural ability to get good." With the current paucity of sound instructional material, it probably DOES take significant natural ability to get to a pro level for most players - I believe that will change after publication.


With their material, you either want it or you don't. You still have to pay the price by living the game, but at least you will know it is possible if you put in the effort, and you will have all of the tools necessary to play like the pros (most players still will not have the gumption to do it; it takes a lot of effort). You will not have to wait 20 or 30 thousand hours to develop that magic "feel" for the stroke and the movement of the balls - it can be yours much sooner.

 

[elvicash]

WBM - I hope you kept some Cliff notes for the southside banger. I want to be scientific too. Happy you had the experience I hope it reaps rewards for you.

 

[336Robin]

Rob,
In a way I feel obligated to build a little "buzz" for things that I truly believe are groundbreaking advances.

You see so much "buzz" over the quick fixes (latest tech, latest voodoo aiming system, magic drill, etc.) that when something truly scientific and revolutionary is developed, I fear it will be lost in the background noise.

I'm quite hopeful that once Mark and Robert have their independent works published that I will never again hear someone on AZB say, " I just didn't have the natural ability to get good." With the current paucity of sound instructional material, it probably DOES take significant natural ability to get to a pro level for most players - I believe that will change after publication.


With their material, you either want it or you don't. You still have to pay the price by living the game, but at least you will know it is possible if you put in the effort, and you will have all of the tools necessary to play like the pros (most players still will not have the gumption to do it; it takes a lot of effort). You will not have to wait 20 or 30 thousand hours to develop that magic "feel" for the stroke and the movement of the balls - it can be yours much sooner.

Mr. Betmore,
I read that first post you wrote and I nearly came out of my chair. There are portions of what you wrote that sound eerily like a principle that I use in one of my methods that really ends up being the way I choose to play all of my shots. In my own opinion pool isnt so complicated and I too see that there are things about it that are either able to be complicated beyond belief or purely simple with another visualization. Ive already hopefully gotten on the list for this book from Mr. Raiford and I look forward to it. It will be interesting to see if we have arrived at a similar place within some of the material you describe. I think that Im going to be in total agony until its in my hands. At any rate thankyou for bringing it up. I hope these new publications draw great interest and are the simpifications we all need to recognize that it just isnt rocket science, its just really great pool, that what I shot for with my book but it seems "this crowd anyway" is so torn up over the cte wars that little else is getting an honorable mention God forbid someone making it easy. You would hope that if the art were made easier that people would learn how to better play but I think that with any material that is a long term effect and may happen. I would be really happy if the ones we picked up just didnt quit but kept playing because of it.
What I have found is an abundance of testosterone blindness where the obvious gets ignored because the simple surely cant be right and Im going to conquer this myself kind of thing. I hope that this new material splits the sky wide open and is the key that we are all searching for. Our sport could sure use a boost and I hope someone can harness the right horse to drive it in on.

Thankyou Sir, May I have another? Where is this basement anyway?

336robin :thumbup:
Robin Kelly

 

[Williebetmore]

Where is this basement anyway?

336robin :thumbup:
Robin Kelly

RK,
It is just below the first floor.



P.S. - I did not mean to demean in any way simpler systems that yield very useful approximations for many players. High level play, though, requires extreme precision, and countless thousands of hours to develop it. Mark's system will give the dedicated practitioner a stroke that can deliver that type of precision; and Robert's methods will allow precision in position play and pocketing far superior to and far quicker than any current method (and in a way that will withstand any degree of scientific analysis). I too "can't wait."

None of this is intended to say that these are the "only" ways to develop a great game; just that they will be quicker and easier (but not quick and not easy).

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Rob,
In a way I feel obligated to build a little "buzz" for things that I truly believe are groundbreaking advances.

You see so much "buzz" over the quick fixes (latest tech, latest voodoo aiming system, magic drill, etc.) that when something truly scientific and revolutionary is developed, I fear it will be lost in the background noise.

I'm quite hopeful that once Mark and Robert have their independent works published that I will never again hear someone on AZB say, " I just didn't have the natural ability to get good." With the current paucity of sound instructional material, it probably DOES take significant natural ability to get to a pro level for most players - I believe that will change after publication.


With their material, you either want it or you don't. You still have to pay the price by living the game, but at least you will know it is possible if you put in the effort, and you will have all of the tools necessary to play like the pros (most players still will not have the gumption to do it; it takes a lot of effort). You will not have to wait 20 or 30 thousand hours to develop that magic "feel" for the stroke and the movement of the balls - it can be yours much sooner.

So, are you saying after the publication of this material, it will no longer require tons of natural ability to get to a pro level?

 

[Williebetmore]

So, are you saying after the publication of this material, it will no longer require tons of natural ability to get to a pro level?

Absolutely......of course dedication and desire of significant quantity will be a pre-requisite. Life's a biatch.

 

[Not Dead Ted]

Quick! What is (23 - (23 * 0.12)) ?

If this took you less than three seconds and you can do calculations like this in your head all day long, then quantitative pool may be for you.

While I'm up for this sort of thing, the audience will be very limited.

 

[Robert Raiford]

Wow, thanks for the kind words and generous hospitality, Willie! I'm glad that you found our session helpful. Please give my regards to your family for so warmly welcoming me into your home.

Geez, talk about putting the pressure on, though...living up to the "Betmore Buzz" seems a bit daunting, to say the least! While it's true that I've worked hard to simplify some pretty technical stuff to dial in extra precision at the table, I realize that my approach won't resonate equally with all players. Still, for pool nutcases like Betmore, Uwate and others who don't mind mixing a little science into their play, careful study of the methods can yield immediate benefits while shaving years off the time normally required to achieve similar results through trial and error.

Of course, you never know how instructional material will be received by the pool/billiard community at large until it's actually out there in the wild. Regardless, I already feel lucky that I've been able to help a few players break through plateaus and raise their game to a level they never thought possible. If I can help a few more through the publication of my book, then all of the hard work of putting it together will have been worth it.

Good luck with your game, Willie, and keep me apprised of your progress.

Robert

 

[Robert Raiford]

I believe ya thats why it is torture bud. Looking forward to it, any estimated release dates?

Thanks, Joe. Sorry for the 'torture', but unfortunately the book won't be available until later in the year. You make producing high quality instructional material look easy, but we both know it's anything but! I'm doing what I can to crank it out in the slivers of time between work and life obligations, but I'm no professional writer, and it's moving more slowly than I (or my students) would like. That's why I've been limiting my in-person teaching time as Betmore mentioned, since it's time I could otherwise spend finishing the book.

Btw, thanks again for all you've done to help make us all better players. Racking Secrets alone has already permanently altered the course of pool history for the better.

Robert

 

[Robert Raiford]

Quick! What is (23 - (23 * 0.12)) ?

LOL! I'm glad to see that you're still around, Ted-formerly-known-as-Crab

Fortunately for non math geeks, my methods aren't quite as bad as even that (and we both know the math could get much scarier very quickly). While some aspects of my techniques definitely involve a little number juggling (at least at first), they're only limited to basic addition and subtraction. Part of the simplification process was finding practical ways to achieve the same results as complicated calculations involving multiplications/divisions/trig functions/etc without having to actually do them directly. I know you're probably skeptical of this (as you should be), but hopefully you'll see what I mean once "all is revealed" lol. I respect your opinions and ideas about the game, and look forward to any feedback you're willing to share in the future.

My ultimate goal is to help build better intuitions about billiard dynamics for players of all cuesports. I'm hoping the methods I've developed will help bridge the gap between billiard science and billiard practice, allowing more players access to a finer level of control over CB and OB in whatever pocket or carom games they like to play. (In fact, I secretly want to convert more pool players into at least part-time 3-cushion players - and vice versa - by demonstrating the benefits that cross-pollination brings.)

The numbers are mixed in there to help get a player there faster (or dial in the extra precision some delicate shots require), but ultimately it will all become integrated into a cohesive whole that just naturally flows from a player without too much conscious effort. Fortunately, whether that eventually happens or not, the conscious effort tends to pay off directly, too

Robert

 

[Not Dead Ted]

LOL! I'm glad to see that you're still around, Ted-formerly-known-as-Crab

Fortunately for non math geeks, my methods aren't quite as bad as even that (and we both know the math could get much scarier very quickly). While some aspects of my techniques definitely involve a little number juggling (at least at first), they're only limited to basic addition and subtraction. Part of the simplification process was finding practical ways to achieve the same results as complicated calculations involving multiplications/divisions/trig functions/etc without having to actually do them directly. I know you're probably skeptical of this (as you should be), but hopefully you'll see what I mean once "all is revealed" lol. I respect your opinions and ideas about the game, and look forward to any feedback you're willing to share in the future.

My ultimate goal is to help build better intuitions about billiard dynamics for players of all cuesports. I'm hoping the methods I've developed will help bridge the gap between billiard science and billiard practice, allowing more players access to a finer level of control over CB and OB in whatever pocket or carom games they like to play. (In fact, I secretly want to convert more pool players into at least part-time 3-cushion players - and vice versa - by demonstrating the benefits that cross-pollination brings.)

The numbers are mixed in there to help get a player there faster (or dial in the extra precision some delicate shots require), but ultimately it will all become integrated into a cohesive whole that just naturally flows from a player without too much conscious effort. Fortunately, whether that eventually happens or not, the conscious effort tends to pay off directly, too

Robert

My hat is off to you if you can reduce things to addition/subtraction and other relatively simple techniques. I looked at memorizing logarithms to calculate bank angles and quickly lost interest. Sounds as though your work could be a quantum leap forward in making this stuff practical. I look forward to reading it.

 

[Williebetmore]

Still, for pool nutcases like Betmore, Uwate and others who don't mind mixing a little science into their play, careful study of the methods can yield immediate benefits while shaving years off the time normally required to achieve similar results through trial and error.

Robert

RR,
I took up pool relatively late in life (age 50). It would not be an understatement to point out that I would never have lived long enough to develop the "feel" and "talent" to make the kick shots that your methods allow one to CALCULATE instead of "feel." To "achieve similar results through trial and error" would have been IMPOSSIBLE for me; of that I am certain.

The fact that the method can be calibrated and utilized on any table is genius really. The calculations and principles we were exposed to are well within the reach of any high school graduate - and most of the principles involved are generally known to the majority of serious pool players.

Both of the pros that have discussed your method with me, and the pro that participated in our sessions have wholeheartedly endorsed this as a real breakthrough; even though they already play at quite a high level. Quite an endorsement; you should be VERY proud of what you have accomplished.