Room OWNER questions

K2Kraze

K2Kraze

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello everyone -

I thought this section would be the best place to get answers from actual ROOM OWNERS on the forum (and not solicit opinions or comments from the main forum folks) to a few questions that came up this week while I visited 3 different rooms in 3 different states...because no one in those rooms could answer them or was willing to even wager a guess. Here goes -

1) What does it cost you as the room owner to recover your tables - and rails? Average cost on 7', 8' and 9' tables. Including labor. Total per-table cost.

2) What is your preferred cloth - for example, do you use Simonis 860HC or is it cost prohibitive or not perform as advertised?

3) How often do you recover the tables and along with that, how do you know when to recover them?

4) How often do you clean your ball sets using a professional, commercial ball polishing machine and not just "wipe them down"?

5) What are your "house balls" and what is the average age and condition of them?

6) Do you regularly inspect and maintain each of the house cues you have in your house cue racks? I'm talking quality tips primarily and as a priority - as well as wipe them down and keep them reasonably smooth and well cared for.

7) Do you use a high quality chalk - at least similar to Masters - or what is your position on providing chalk for the players that receive a ball tray?

Here's what led me to posting these questions tonight:

I travel for a living. I am in different cities numerous days per month. Never the same twice in a row. I use Google, Facebook, Yelp and the Go Play Pool app amongst many others to help me locate a place to play "pool", "snooker", "pocket billiards", "billiards" or even "3 cushion billiards" to generate as many results and options as I can. I read the reviews, if any. I go to the linked web address if one is given. I see the pictures posted. Then I go see what they have to offer. I play - sometimes. Most times the conditions aren't worth playing in. I'll be a good patron and visitor and have a drink or a bite at least.

Here's what I found this week: all 3 rooms had no less than 30 tables and one had more than 50. Most reviews and write-ups proclaimed being a great place with great tables and friendly atmosphere --- you know --- the usual - and what you really want to hear before setting out to find a new place to shoot a few balls. Seriously play. Not bang around. Not screw off. Not smoke or have a few brews. To play. On different equipment. A real 12' snooker table or least a 10'er. A decent Gold Crown I through V maybe. Diamonds certainly. A Kling and an Anniversary even. You know - experience the game. The environment differences. The different rails and cues and balls and everything. To play.

Well, this week, I walked out of all three. Never chalked a cue. And one required a drive in a rental car that was 68 miles one way. Friday night freeway traffic this time.

Disappointed. Dismayed is more like it.

What was I expecting? I had to have some expectations, right? Especially after reading the reviews on Facebook and two independent sites - and one newspaper article even.....yes, you could say I expected to be able to play on some decent equipment. In a nice room. Pool hall. Pool room. Club, etc. Not a bar.

This is worth noting: I neither said nor expected anything of the clientele, kitchen or counter folks, air quality, prices or variety of tables. Only the TABLES, BALLS, CLOTH, HOUSE CUES and the CHALK that I would have access to for a few hours.

I don't write articles for any magazines.

I am not an investigative reporter.

I am not doing "research".

I am not a room owner.

I am not a hustler.

I am an enthusiast. A passionate enthusiast. Not old by any stretch of the imagination nor a youngster. I'm your average American pool player. A decent player. I practice and play regularly. I play with a group of folks in a local 14.1 league. I have a large pool/billiards book collection and enjoy reading of all aspects the games can offer. I collect ball sets and play over 100 games. I love the history. I love to share the game and the passion. Watching the games being played is almost as enjoyable as playing. You know - an enthusiast.

So why did I walk out and not even play - after the drive and effort? All week long.

Simply - the equipment was terrible. Every piece. No exception. The table and cloth condition - the ball sets - the house cues and the chalk even. And I don't even NEED chalk. Others were playing. Half of the tables were occupied on average. Busy. Maybe they didn't have a choice or were used to the conditions and that was their "normal". But why the inaccurate descriptions and exaggerated write-ups every turn that got me there to begin with? Perplexing. Dismayed, once again, is the right word.

Could it be for the ROOM OWNER, it is just too costly to maintain even the house cue TIPS - or invest in ONE good professional, commercial ball polisher? Even I have the Diamond ball polisher for my home table and ball collection and I'm not even fanatical. It's common sense to take good care of your valuable possessions. Aren't the house tables, balls and cues all valuable assets? The Diamonds didn't look old and were rough looking. Maybe the usual crowd is rough on them. I wouldn't have believed the condition of the Centennial and the Anniversary tables if I hadn't seen them with my own eyes. The carom tables were - well, you get the idea.

Thus the questions. Costs of maintaining each of the main pieces. And how they get in such state of disrepair. Are room tables cheap to obtain (relatively) but much more costly to keep WELL maintained over the long term?

If I am walking out of 3 rooms in 3 states after working a 12 hour day and taking my time to seek them out and then drive to them, imagine how many LOCALS are walking out or not coming back as often as you'd like - or need them to so those things can be taken care of. If they don't stay - or come back - they don't leave any money behind do they?

What am I missing?

Is this the "state of the pool industry" and market I've been hearing about since the 80's?

I'm not after reasons or excuses or blaming any one particular club - certainly not an owner. I'd like to hear from ROOM OWNERS about the questions I posted in the beginning of this thread so that others may benefit from it after seeing those answers. Maybe raise awareness. Or lead people like me to the clubs that are proud of their establishment and equipment and aren't afraid to charge a good price for the privilege to play with and on said equipment. And by the way, I have never asked what the hourly charge is to play on any table in any city. Ever. They are all "fair".

Believe me when I say that I am part of a large number of people that travel for a living whether in the same cities all the time or somewhere different every day like me. Nation wide. That look for rooms to play in (first and foremost) and possibly grab a bite or a drink. But play first. Anyone can eat anywhere. Where are they all going - and what are they finding?

Thank you for reading - and hopefully offering some answers and insight.

Play well ---



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Room owner answers

1. Roughly, $500 - $600 for a recover - does not include extra repairs. 8'-9' tables. Depends on cloth and mechanics fees which vary by region.

2. We use Championship Pro Tour cloth. Same price as the 860 HR. IMO both are top flight and give excellent results plus value.

3. The reason we use Pro Tour cloth is it's long life. It all depends on use (and abuse). I use visual clues for when the time has come.

4. Daily and by commercial ball cleaner.

5. Aramith super pro. Banger players are the death of balls. Life cycle????

6. House cues - tips as reported. Patrons will not wash hands - impossible to keep up. We also offer rental sticks which are cleaned after every use and have premium tips.

7. Master chalk - 2 to a tray no "crater depth."
 
Last edited:
We pay $450 to have our 7' Diamonds recovered and we use 860HR. You know when your tables need recovered. On our tables are Aramith Tournaments and they are ran through a Diamond polisher every 2 days. The tables are vac'd and Simonis X-1's ran on them every 2 days, spots are changed when needed. Our house cues are Lucasi's and Dufferins, all have Ultra Skins, Everest, Super Pros, and WB's installed on them. The cues are cleaned and repaired as needed, if I wouldn't shoot with it, it wouldn't be on the floor. We keep fresh Masters, Silver Cup, and Triangle chalk avail.. We also use Delta racks on all table. Brian.
 
To K2Kraze

It is going to be a rare room that will be able to give you what you want. The cost of providing all the amenities that you may have in your home just are not be in the real world. Some (most?) room owners just don't care, while others can not realistically do all those ideal things. There may be places where it happens but I'm sure it does not come cheap.

You mentioned places with 30 to 50 tables - these are large operations that have all types of people playing. "Pool is something to do 'til the beer gets there" may describe most. Even smaller places can't/won't do the maintenance require to give a discrete player such as yourself what is being sought. I think it fair to say most people don't know better, therefore its not going to happen. How else could you account for the average bar box?

I'm a sole proprietor who really tries to deliver what you want but I fall short with the best of intentions. (Lack of time & money)
 
Thank you, Mr AfftonBilliards, for taking time to reply and post. Your facebook page shows a nice room and I'll certainly swing by one day and say hello when I'm in your area :-)

Based on your replies, it is obvious you are not even close to the typical room owner out there that I have experienced and how to care for equipment - and it's a funny thing since the 3 key equipment elements are the key reason anyone comes to "play". You seem to value all of your equipment and it shows I am sure.

And for the large room that has 30+ tables, perhaps it's safe to say that either they under-budget the ongoing upkeep or don't think their patrons will pay good money for great equipment experiences. That's been my experience for this past two years visiting hundreds of table locations.

Your "intentions" as you stated go largely noticed to your clientele I am certain. Keep up the great work! :-)



LIVFST
 
a1712 said:
We pay $450 to have our 7' Diamonds recovered and we use 860HR. You know when your tables need recovered. On our tables are Aramith Tournaments and they are ran through a Diamond polisher every 2 days. The tables are vac'd and Simonis X-1's ran on them every 2 days, spots are changed when needed. Our house cues are Lucasi's and Dufferins, all have Ultra Skins, Everest, Super Pros, and WB's installed on them. The cues are cleaned and repaired as needed, if I wouldn't shoot with it, it wouldn't be on the floor. We keep fresh Masters, Silver Cup, and Triangle chalk avail.. We also use Delta racks on all table. Brian.
Click to expand...



Thank you, Brian!

You succinctly said it all with this: "if I wouldn't shoot with it, it wouldn't be on the floor."

Thanks for your feedback :-)


LIVFST
 
Maybe we should take a second look........

The OP caused me to look around the room a little closer. Our bridge sticks (two to a table) were filthy! 50 minutes later and they are now all clean. The little things are just as important as the big things. Customers notice even if nothing is said. Take care of this "stuff" and business will be better. :thumbup:

Big Al
 
A short walk down memory lane.

I was a might young fellow in the fifties. There was an old time room called Grand & Olive Billiards in midtown St. Louis. It was opened in 1914 with a mixture of pool, snooker and straight rail table: 24 in all I think.

Although they didn't have a bar or restaurant, matrons in maid uniforms were part of the staff. These ladies would serve food and drink from an establishment downstairs and delivered to the room by a dumb waiter system. (Liquor control eventually shut that down). The tables would be brushed down after every session by them and a fresh pitch of iced water and clean glasses would be put out. Each rack was set up by a rack person. Talk about service!

I do miss that. Modern rooms should try to present service as best that can be done. Your patrons will never forget it.

Big Al
 
1) ~$350/table

2) Simonis 860

3) Annually, maybe twice a year for the one by the bar

4) Twice a week on average

5) Cyclop, on my first set that came with Diamonds and I'll replace when they start to chip and show deep scuffs that won't polish out.

6) Cheaper to replace than retip them. I buy 4 dozen at a time for about $11 each (Players).

7) Masters Chalk on the tables (Coin Ops)
 
Not the owner but a manager, 35 table room
1. around $300-325 per table 9"
2. championship, tour edition green 30/30 or 30/20.
3. high volume player tables about 1-2 years, regular tables 3-4 years as needed. Vacuumed Daily.
4. Multiple times Daily (players tables) to daily and as needed , diamond "dual platter "ball cleaner.
5. Brunswick Centennials , Est.about 10 years old each set.Excellent to very good condition. (Best condition sets on player tables). Cue balls been replaced in alot of them.
6. all Cuetec house cues, retiped with Triangle tips as needed. Ill go around and scuff em once in a while.
7. masters Chalk, every tray gets 2 pieces of good chalk. New to used but not drilled past half.
Box of extra assorted condition chalk by counter.
Most will grab more even if there is chalk in the tray....some refuse to play with anything less then brand new because(insert lame excuse here). and it usually doesnt come back with tray, just accumulates on table unless you go get it yourself. Put out a new box at least once a month on avg.

all in all its really not that hard to keep things "clean " and in order around a pool room, just by being proactive and mindfull of what needs to be done on a daily basis, but if you skip a day or slack off it can get bad real quick.
people do notice , players and bangers alike , when you do take care of your place.
Expenses can be costly to a room that does not make a lot of profit...if any.
I can tell when the owners care but cannot afford the cost of new cloth every few years, or a 750$ ball cleaner, or new house cues every couple years.
In fact , ill say that the nicer and cleaner the place is ....the more people notice when its been slightly neglected or not up to thier expectations. Also the nicer the place is the more expectant/demanding the customers get of "perfect "conditions at all times.

Ive played in rooms where they NEVER cleaned the tables /balls...bathrooms....ever.
needless to say.....most of those rooms are long gone now.

i got some down time, going to hit the floor for some upkeep. (see how easy that is ;) )
 
Tronpocket said:
Not the owner but a manager, 35 table room
1. around $300-325 per table 9"
2. championship, tour edition green 30/30 or 30/20.
3. high volume player tables about 1-2 years, regular tables 3-4 years as needed. Vacuumed Daily.
4. Multiple times Daily (players tables) to daily and as needed , diamond "dual platter "ball cleaner.
5. Brunswick Centennials , Est.about 10 years old each set.Excellent to very good condition. (Best condition sets on player tables). Cue balls been replaced in alot of them.
6. all Cuetec house cues, retiped with Triangle tips as needed. Ill go around and scuff em once in a while.
7. masters Chalk, every tray gets 2 pieces of good chalk. New to used but not drilled past half.
Box of extra assorted condition chalk by counter.
Most will grab more even if there is chalk in the tray....some refuse to play with anything less then brand new because(insert lame excuse here). and it usually doesnt come back with tray, just accumulates on table unless you go get it yourself. Put out a new box at least once a month on avg.

all in all its really not that hard to keep things "clean " and in order around a pool room, just by being proactive and mindfull of what needs to be done on a daily basis, but if you skip a day or slack off it can get bad real quick.
people do notice , players and bangers alike , when you do take care of your place.
Expenses can be costly to a room that does not make a lot of profit...if any.
I can tell when the owners care but cannot afford the cost of new cloth every few years, or a 750$ ball cleaner, or new house cues every couple years.
In fact , ill say that the nicer and cleaner the place is ....the more people notice when its been slightly neglected or not up to thier expectations. Also the nicer the place is the more expectant/demanding the customers get of "perfect "conditions at all times.

Ive played in rooms where they NEVER cleaned the tables /balls...bathrooms....ever.
needless to say.....most of those rooms are long gone now.

i got some down time, going to hit the floor for some upkeep. (see how easy that is ;) )
Click to expand...


Thank you for taking time and posting, Tronpocket - I've been passing along this thread and the replies to room owners, managers and bar-keeps throughout my room visits whenever I get the chance in a conversation before I leave - I'm sure it will make a difference. Small steps :-)

A few follow up questions of you have the chance:

What percentage of players do you think bring their own cues in with them to play vs using the Cuetec house cues you offer?

Your Centennials have really lasted ten years and still look great? What a difference the cleaning / polishing with your Diamond machine must make - because from what I see almost every day, you are the exception - and most surely appreciated by your customers :-)

Do you offer any other ball sets for your customers or only the Centennials like you mentioned? I'm wondering how the Cyclop or Aramith Tournaments would hold up under heavy/commercial use?

Sounds like you are doing a great job - the owners are fortunate to have you taking care of things.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
K2,
Id say as far as "players" goes, action, tournament or league people, i can only think of a few that dont own a personal cue.
For off the street recreational/banger players , maybe 1 in 15 bring there own cue.

Ill say this about the cuetek house cues, there the nuts, and they play very well.

Our ball sets , like i said, vary. We try to keep the best sets on the action tables. There not perfect, but acceptable.
We use a standard ball cleaner /polish.
I do have a personal set of Super aramith pro (TV) balls, perfect condition , that i will offer to certain serious players visiting our room for challenge matches.
We also have a small stock of red circle Qballs for those who like them over the blue circle.
Performance and durability wise, Im guessing that all the higher end ball sets should perform the same with commercial abuse.

I found the biggest thing that will DESTROY a ball set......loose pocket screws ( on GoldCrown's). They can ruin a set in an hr if there sticking out where the balls hit them. Only takes one loose in a corner pocket.
Also im finding that Phenolic Jump/break tips really can damage Q balls also. They cause Minute (my newt:p) fractures and abrasions.


If i had to give one general simple piece of advice to any room owner .....vacuum the tables, clean the balls,wipe the rails DAILY it Takes all of 5min. per table.....make sure the bathrooms are clean DAILY,That is (F)actually more important to women then dirty tables/balls/ect. (daily)
.empty the trash and vacuum the floor as needed. simple

Good luck on your journey.
 
Tronpocket said:
I found the biggest thing that will DESTROY a ball set......loose pocket screws ( on GoldCrown's). They can ruin a set in an hr if there sticking out where the balls hit them. Only takes one loose in a corner pocket.
Also im finding that Phenolic Jump/break tips really can damage Q balls also. They cause Minute (my newt:p) fractures and abrasions.
.
Click to expand...

How frequently do you check for table issues that might hurt your balls (I just said that)?

Also, do you make it known that you prefer that phenolic tips aren't really that great for your equipment, or do you just consider more frequent cue ball replacement part of the cost of maintenance.? if so, how much more frequently does this become an issue?
 
mike,
since i go around every day (that im here) and clean the tables, i check the pockets (regularly) as i wipe the rails or as im just on some down time.
Just by feeling in side the pocket you can tell if there loose or getting loose. it doesnt add much if any time to my daily chores. Its just about being proactive.

As far as the phenolics, there is not much i can do to prevent players from using there jump/breaks. We are a pool room and to ban certain "legal" equipment for the sake of trying to get more life out of a cue ball....pointless......just got to lable it as wear and tear and eat it .
Since its primarily the cue balls getting all the abuse we will swap them for a regular table and replace with a better condition or new ...as needed.


Now normally a few scuffs or surface imperfections wont hurt the balls play ability but since we try to keep the action tables with the best we have to offer ,if a (any) better ball is available ill put it where it will be appreciated.(goes for object balls also)
 
Our Answers

) On average about $300-$350 for a 9ft table. We do the 7fts ourseleves.

2) For our 7ft and 9ft tables we use Simonis 860HR on all except one. However we are currently considering going to the Andy cloth with few tables that we plan to cover in the near future.

3) There is no science that we have found that tells us when to recover. Its just a we know it needs it. We are nuts with keep the cloth clean and know that doing this will only extend the life of each table's cloth.

4) I know we'll get grief here but as nutty as we are with cleaning the table we are borderline nuts with how clean we keep are balls. 98% of the time we clean the balls after every use. When player play long sets, 4 or 5 hours or more, we offer up a new set of balls to keep them fresh for the players. We use a machine for our cleaning.

5) A majority of our players are casual players but we do get some big sticks that come in. All the serious players get a set of Brunswick Centennials. Newbies or players we know are just whacking balls around will get a basic set of balls ($100 set)

6) We own a ton of house cues so keeping up on them is sometimes difficult to say the least. We try to clean at least every cue once per week. Cues that have a mushroomed tip we'll reshape or put on the bench for a new tip. We put Lepro on all of our house cues and probably change about 6 tips a month. In addition, we have some decent 2 piece cues that we will rent to players that forgot their stick. If a big shooter comes in to play and forgot his stick or didn't have it for some reason, we lend out a Lucasi Hybrid with a Kamui Clear Tip.

7) Chalk is my pet peeve. Which is why 95% of my regular player shoot with predator chalk. But each tray of balls will have at least 2 Master chalks in the set.

I hope this is helpful to you. I know we do things much different then the average room, but that's ok because we like being different.
 
I would be interested to hear how long the ANDY CLOTH lasts as compaired to Simonis before you have to replace it.

-Steve
 
1) What does it cost you as the room owner to recover your tables - and rails? Average cost on 7', 8' and 9' tables. Including labor. Total per-table cost.
Average Cost of Cloth/ Labor/ repairs/ lost table time etc - $400 per table

2) What is your preferred cloth - for example, do you use Simonis 860HC or is it cost prohibitive or not perform as advertised?
We use many types of cloth because every cloth is the BEST or the WORST according to players. Simonis 760, Simonis, 860, Championship Tour Edition, Gorina, Simonis 300 (? Carom) Proline.

3) How often do you recover the tables and along with that, how do you know when to recover them? Table recovering anywhere from 6 mos to 18 mos. Based on Where in the room they are. Match tables more often, banger tables less often.

4) How often do you clean your ball sets using a professional, commercial ball polishing machine and not just "wipe them down"?
18 sets of balls. Clean 4 sets everyday and rotate as needed. Some balls are rarely used like Bumper Pool or SaGu balls so they are cleaned less often.

5) What are your "house balls" and what is the average age and condition of them?
Premier Aramith replaced last year.
6) Do you regularly inspect and maintain each of the house cues you have in your house cue racks? I'm talking quality tips primarily and as a priority - as well as wipe them down and keep them reasonably smooth and well cared for.
Mostly concerned with our rentals. $300 Jacoby Cues in best condition. House cues are replaced on a regular basis a couple a week rotated out and sold as used.
7) Do you use a high quality chalk - at least similar to Masters - or what is your position on providing chalk for the players that receive a ball tray?
Use Masters Chalk. Mostly left on the tables. Go through about 25 pieces a day due to theft or being crushed on the floor. Most of the ones drilled through end up on the bangers tables and thrown away when they do last that long. Do not provide talc usually. Discourage baby powder since it is mostly corn starch these days and not good for the tables.
 
To those of you that have chimed in so far for all of us to see how you care for your room and offering various ways to do similar things "Thank You!" for your feedback.


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