The "short format" you speak of was put in place because league nights were running late. League nights were going past midnight and people had to work in the morning.
Rule Differences Between APA & BCA
- Thread starter DolphinNoSharks
- Start date
The "short format" you speak of was put in place because league nights were running late. League nights were going past midnight and people had to work in the morning.
I am a "9" in the APA for 9 ball. I play pretty strong for that level. This session, my *average* win is 17.7 of the possible 20 points up for grabs. I'm winning matches 75-6, 75-10, etc...For the stronger 9's like me and obviously many far better than me, the push out adds to what is already an advantage that the handicap can't really accommodate. Plus, the lower ranked players don't kick that great, so it is easy to push out to a routine kick safe. I think the no push out rule prevents the strongest players from running big packages, and makes the game more competitive. I remember hearing that 9's account for less than 0.5% of the APA membership. The APA would be pretty stupid if their rules were built around the games of this tiny minority. Obviously I do ok without the pushout. In fact, APA 9 ball (when I first started pl;aying it about 8 years ago) was one of the most significant factors in my trying to improve my cueball control on the break. Scratching is a catastrophe. But really you need to play better than usual shape on the 1 since there is no push. I kinda like it. I make up for the no push rule by having better cue ball control on the break than my lower ranked opponents. Plus, it is far more likely for *them* to hook themselves on the break. Given what I just said about the average kicking skills, the no push out rule hurts the lower players too, just in a slightly different way. So I usually can hit the one and sometimes get safe. But they are fairly likely to give up ball in hand...and that is not likely to work out well for them haha!
Just another perspective to consider.
KMRUNOUT
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I played in both APA and BCA sanctioned league. I believe some differences in APA rules are to accommodate the practical reality of playing on a coin-op bar box.
One More Thing
I have played both in 8 but not 9 so I cant speak to differences there. One more difference in 8 ball is that you can call a safe on a made ball which in APA you cant. Doesnt sound like a big deal but I can tell you how many times it factored in on some of those prolonged safety battles.
I have played both in 8 but not 9 so I cant speak to differences there. One more difference in 8 ball is that you can call a safe on a made ball which in APA you cant. Doesnt sound like a big deal but I can tell you how many times it factored in on some of those prolonged safety battles.
speaking of safes. i would like every bodys opinion of this.
during regular session i honestly try to win every match but i dont play a lot of safes.
several reasons for not playing many safes during regular session.
1. its supposed to be a night out with friends just playing pool.
2. time factor. i dont want to get in a long drawn out match when i have to work the next day.
3. really aint playing for nothing.
however when i get into tricups or ltc's i get real serious. my game changes completely. i have had 40 inning marathons with me playing 20 odd something safes and my opponent playing a dozen or more safes.
if i recall i had around 45 safes in my 5 matches where i went undefeated against mostly 6's and 7's in our last ltc.
does that make me a sand bagger during regular session because i dont resort to a lot of saftey play.? what is every ones opinion on this ?
No that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that the integrity of the game is not dependent on skill level. However, each example you offered is completely arbitrary. There is really no fundamental law of the universe that makes any of those example good *or* bad. For example, why specifically is the integrity of the game dependent on whether it is a foul or not to knock an object ball on the floor? If "integrity" means "how accurately the rules conform to the ones you like the best", then I'm totally with you. But if it means something else, you're going to have to say *why*. I don't think the rules you *accurately* cited are good or bad for the game. Obviously the rules you inaccurately cited need nothing more said about them.
And incidentally, a push shot (shooting straight through the cue ball when it is frozen to an object ball), is legal in BOTH the APA and the BCA, as well as the Texas Express 9 ball rules. Were you aware of that? A double hit is NOT allowed in any of those rules, including APA. It is always a foul to double hit the cue ball.
I wonder if you have ever read this sentence in the BCA rule book:
"Luck is an inherent part of all sports, games and competition. It is neither possible nor desirable to use the rules to legislate all luck out of the game."
*Why*?
Still sticking with that phrase "real pool". Are you aware that that sounds elitist and condescending?
Ok but you are stating your opinions as if they were facts. You're also stating some false things as though they were true. I've already explained how "bar rules" and APA rules differ *significantly*. I don't know *any* bar rules that don't require called shots. As a 7 in APA 8 ball, if I play a 3 the race is exactly 6-2. I should win that race every time. It is *strongly* to the advantage of the better player. If a 3 ever wins a rack against me, I must have screwed up pretty badly. 8 ball in general favors the stronger player. On the other hand, if you do an alternating break format for 8 ball and use BCA rules, in which it is open after the break, and you have lots of C and B players getting big weight from A and Open players, now the advantage has shifted to the lower player, since many C players and pretty much all B players can break and run a rack of 8 ball...*especially* when it is open after the break.
If you are a professional, you should play in professional tournaments with the rules that typically are used there. If you are not a professional, then honestly I don't think which rules you use is going to have a *significant* impact on the outcome of matches over the long run. I mean, think about this: what professional pool tournament involves playing single racks against opponents and scoring ball counts (in 8 ball no less lol!). Pretty much all pro pool is *match* play. The APA as far as I can tell is the *only* league that preserves this format. Do you not recognize that awarding points to the loser of the rack for clearing more of their balls off is fundamentally against the basic strategic principles of how 8 ball is played? If I lost and most of my balls are off the table, I screwed up strategically. But in BCA rules, (as well I believe as TAP, VNEA, USAPL, etc.) I get *rewarded* for that poor strategic play. When I played BCA I laughed at how the peoples' strategy was to grub for every ball against me if they thought they were going to lose the game. This is WAY the opposite of how you would play "real" 8 ball (in which the winner is the guy that makes the 8 ball, and the loser is the guy that didn't, and the score is 1-0 and nothing else after that rack).
I wonder if you have considered these points. If so I must conclude that you dismissed them for some reason. Why? If not, what do you think now? I'm not trying to argue...it's just a bit offputting when people insult the amateur and recreational players for doing things differently than the pros. In my perfect world, the pros and amateurs would play the same game, same rules, etc. But *I* love pool. I am a pool nut. Most of my league teammates and most league players in general are looking for a night out to bang balls around, have some fun competition, hang out and drink with their buddies, etc. Clearly the objectives of the league players and the pro players are different. Rules like the APA allow very easy enforcement and implementation of the rules, they keep situations that require skilled observers to arbitrate to a minimum, and promote simple and fast play. These qualities work well in the league context, just as the pro rules work well in that context. All the things that make pool what it is, the beauty, enjoyment, and creativity of it...these things are present in all rule sets. When I run out in a big APA tourney I feel just as good about it as when I run out in a non-APA tourney. It was the exact same skill set involved, and I really have no reason to believe my skills were any less present because of whatever rule set I was playing by.
KMRUNOUT
almost every one mentioned differences in general.
i have played apa and bcap so lets use my thought process using identical scenarios during an actual match.
me breaking...
apa
made a solid....damn ...not a single open shot on a solid. hey i can kick the one ball in the side pocket and if succesfull i got a pretty good lay out after that.
bcapl.
made a solid....damn ..not a single open shot on a solid..... hey ... i got several stripes wide open and a pretty good lay out....think i will take those.
which scenario is easier ? bcapl of course.
my opponent breaking. ... he scratched.
apa.
got start in the kitchen. solids are layed out pretty good except for 2 ball locked together by the foot spot. well if i knock the one in the side and use right english the cue ball should travel down breaking those 2 balls up.
bcapl.
same scenario.
gonna take solids because of the better layout but i got those 2 balls tied up by the foot spot. all i gotta do is take the cue ball down ther and shoot one of them in and i got a good run after wards.
which is easier ? bcapl of course.
damn i left my self bad on the 8.... definite scratch shot if i shoot it wrong.
apa
i shoot it soft...the 8 dont fall but the cue ball does...damn i lost this rack.
bcapl.
i shoot it soft...the 8 dont fall but the cue ball does....no problem... if my opponent dont run out i can make that hanger.
which is easier ? bcapl of course.
dang my opponent played a lock down safe...no way to get to my last ball by kicking.
apa
i been practicing full cue jumps and 50/50 i can make it.
bcapl
heck i will just get my jump cue and make that easy jump.
which is easier ? bcapl of course.
last match of the night.
apa
we are down by 2 points. i have to shut my opponent down 4-0 in a 4-4 race for us to win by 1 point.
bcapl
we only need 1 point to win....my last ball is hanging in a pocket blocked by one of my opponents balls. all i gotta do is hit his ball ...knocking mine in and we win.
which is easier / bcapl of course.
yep... apa is for kids as one poster said .
*EXCELLENT* post. Too bad I've already given you rep recently I guess. Very well done!
KMRUNOUT
It will be difficult for you to contribute to this topic without getting a better handle on the facts. You are misinformed about the double hit/push shot rule. I explained this in my above post. Double hits are not allowed in the APA. You simply have to stop your opponent before they shoot and explain the situation. In my area, I made it a personal goal to educate the players, the division reps, and the league operator about the rule, and how it is implemented. Now even most of the 2's and 3's in my area understand the concept that if there is a small space between the cue ball and the object ball, if the cueball takes off after the object ball at the same speed, it was a clear foul. Notice how I said "I made it my goal". I didn't sit and complain about how people are too stupid to understand the rules, and specifically the rules *clearly stated* in the APA rule book. Instead I did my part to educate my fellow players and change the situation. There was no problem whatsoever with the *rules* of the APA with regard to double hits. The problem was with the ignorance of the players using them. So I targeted the problem.
The only accurate rules based scenario you offered is the one where you make a ball on the break but have no clear shot on your set of balls. You are not "screwed". You screwed *yourself* most of the time. Learn some cueball control on the break, learn to hit the rack in such a way that the balls spread right and don't cluster up, learn to understand the rack if it is rack for each other, or learn to rack if it is rack your own. Do these things, which are 100% within your control, and the scenario will happen far less often for you. It is *extremely* rare that I break 8 ball in APA rules and have no shot on my set of balls. But even if I don't, well good thing I learned to kick too. It will happen to my opponent too. I sure hope he chose to blame the rules rather than improve his skill set.
KMRUNOUT
No it is not. I don't think any rules allow the 8 ball to be neutral after the break.
KMRUNOUT
lorider, I think you and I would get along just great. You going to APA nationals? You got a beer on me. PM me if you are.
KMRUNOUT
Actually there is. But not APA OR BCA. There used to be a local Texas express 8 ball league where the 8 was neutral until you potted a ball after the break. I this league, there was a choice after the break no matter which category you made. You could actually hit the 8 first to make an object ball. After that, it was no longer neutral. Gotta tell you though, it was weird to do it. Everything in my pool playing life told me it was wrong! But it was the rule.
well said kmrunout. my thoughts exactly but you expressed them better than i would have.:thumbup:
when i 1st joined bcapl i also encountered that " make every ball you can " mentality from some of my opponents.
the loser being credited with every ball off the table " although he may not have pocketed some of them " always struck me as odd. never heard of real 8 ball being played that way before.
we seem to have the same attitude about pool. i know we would get along great...heck i would have no problem getting along with hang the 9 or any one else on this forum. we always dont have to agree and i do respect others opinions...even if i dont agree with them.
nothing wrong with having a civil dis agreement on what real pool.is all about.
sadly i will not be going to vegas this year. i went last year for the 1st time and loved it.
good luck to you out there.:thumbup:
i encountered some guy in a bar in florida about 30 years ago who played by that rule.
i have never heard of it since then though.
The first time i did it, it felt like.....well.....going to the street corner and picking up a date. It was just plain wrong. But i got used to it.
Thanks! My Masters team got 5th 2 years ago. Oh man we should won it but my teammates had bad matches at the wrong time. They bailed me out enough throughout so no worries. Great team. I just grabbed 5th in the 8 ball singles this year. Playing some good bar table pool. I hope this is our year!!
KMRUNOUT
DolphinNoSharks
New member
Are there time-outs in BCA?
It's my understanding that league operators can allow them during league nights but they are not allowed at BCA tournaments or the Nationals.
It's my understanding that league operators can allow them during league nights but they are not allowed at BCA tournaments or the Nationals.
The BCAPL (not BCA) does not allow time outs during a game in their National tourney. In singles and doubles play you can call one time out per match as long as it is in between games and your break.
As far as league play goes, the BCAPL does not require any league to play by any set of rules. If your league wants to play APA rules then that is fine. You want to use your own handicapping method or eliminate handicapping, fine. Round robin or match format, fine.
And that is probably the biggest difference between the BCAPL and the APA as far as rules go. You have more flexibility as a league operator in the BCAPL.
i find it odd that a certain group of players bash apa for just about every rule in the book.
this same group bashes bar rules because the rules are not consistent from one region to another .
yet this same group praises bcapl although there is no consistency in rules or formats from one region to the next.
personally i prefer to play in a league where the rules and format is the same at the local level as it is at the national level.