Rules question - Break balls on tapped tables

[Nostra]

Hi!

At our pool hall all the tables have been tapped. Therefore we don't use triangles, and there are no triangle marks. Sometimes the intended break ball is inside the imaginary triangle outline, but not hindering the repositioning of the balls.

How then to interpret the following rule (4.2)?

"The marked outline of the triangle will be used to determine whether an intended break ball is in the rack area."

Reference: http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament

One solution would be to imagine a super-thin triangle and therefore allow these break balls. Another would be to bring out an actual triangle and measure.

What is the correct interpretation?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Hermund

 

[selftaut]

If you want to go by what would be required in tournament play, then either a line for a triangle rack is drawn on the table (which would be drawn around an actual triangle rack) or an actual triangle rack is used.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... What is the correct interpretation?
...

Sadly, this possibility was not foreseen during the latest WPA rules revision.

One problem is that some break balls are impossible to pocket if the only criteria is that they do not overlap the actual balls of the new rack. The triangle normally provides a "no man's land" to keep such balls from stopping your run.

I see two ways to handle it. The first is to get a standard triangle and draw a line around the rack area and then never touch the triangle again. This allows a determination of in/out without needing balls on the table.

The second is to say that any ball within X mm of a racked ball is considered to be interfering with racking. I suppose you could make that equal to the width of a piece of chalk. This does not allow a good determination of in/out until you try to rack the balls.

I prefer the first solution -- draw the line.

I have never seen an official template, but I suppose it would be possible to make it large enough that a line could be drawn around the outside of the template to give the equivalent of a rack outline for 14.1.

 

[Bob Jewett]

If you want to go by what would be required in tournament play, then either a line for a triangle rack is drawn on the table (which would be drawn around an actual triangle rack) or an actual triangle rack is used.

If the balls have been tapped, you don't need a triangle, and using one carelessly can undo the benefits of tapping.

 

[Vahmurka]

I prefer the first solution -- draw the line.
I have never seen an official template, but I suppose it would be possible to make it large enough that a line could be drawn around the outside of the template to give the equivalent of a rack outline for 14.1.

yes, if one they use is like this one imaged, they could just outline the template:

 

[Bob Jewett]

yes, if one they use is like this one imaged, they could just outline the template:

By my measurement of the pictured template, the outside edge of the template is just at the edge of the ball. This would be the equivalent of a zero-thickness triangle. That would allow break balls to be too close to pocket them, for example almost frozen to the bottom of the rack.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

I'll ask the question no one has... why would a poolroom tap all the balls into place for a rack?

What happens when the cueball is rolling slowly in the rack area?

- Steve

 

[Nostra]

Thank you very much for the quick reply!

One problem is that some break balls are impossible to pocket if the only criteria is that they do not overlap the actual balls of the new rack. The triangle normally provides a "no man's land" to keep such balls from stopping your run.

As you correctly state most balls crossing the line are impossible to pocket. There are some notable exceptions though. In the corners of the triangle, and especially in the front corner there is enough room to pot a ball touching the line.

I see two ways to handle it. The first is to get a standard triangle and draw a line around the rack area and then never touch the triangle again. This allows a determination of in/out without needing balls on the table.

This rule is very easily understood and will also be applied in the next tournament. There is actually one being played this weekend.

The second is to say that any ball within X mm of a racked ball is considered to be interfering with racking. I suppose you could make that equal to the width of a piece of chalk. This does not allow a good determination of in/out until you try to rack the balls.

I agree. It would be very difficult to determine what balls are available during a run.

I have never seen an official template, but I suppose it would be possible to make it large enough that a line could be drawn around the outside of the template to give the equivalent of a rack outline for 14.1.

A template that only covers the areas where break balls are impossible to pot would be pretty awkward-looking, as it would have to have a flat front.

Do you think this situation with tapping and break balls will be covered in the next revision of the rules?

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Do you think this situation with tapping and break balls will be covered in the next revision of the rules?

I think this actually belongs in the Regulations, so it should not have to wait for the next revision of the rules.

As to the question of why one would want to tap the balls, that is because you can get a much, much tighter rack and a faster tight rack by tapping the balls than by using a traditional rack. Tapping the balls is more or less the equivalent of using a Sardo rack but without the mechanism. Most Americans are unaware of the technique, but it is quite common at major tournaments in Europe. At nine ball, it is hard to argue against a rack when all the balls are touching.

Some fear deflection of balls by the craters, but I have never seen this in reality. It is much less of a problem than the sticker some use on the spot. In a normal nine ball rack on old cloth, there are deep craters where the balls are anyway. If you aren't bothered by those, tapping should be no issue.

 

[Vahmurka]

By my measurement of the pictured template, the outside edge of the template is just at the edge of the ball. This would be the equivalent of a zero-thickness triangle.

oh yes, I forgot the holes in the template are not a ball width Then taking a triangle rack and drawing a line around it is the best solution I can come up with.

Tapping the balls is more or less the equivalent of using a Sardo rack but without the mechanism. Most Americans are unaware of the technique

I've never been dealing with Sardo rack but I've read that it used to (or still does) have some template to prepare the cloth (which was just the same tapping, and actually did the trick so that you could rack with hands, i.e. without Sardo itself). May be new revisions of Sardo rack don't require cloth preparation, but if they do Americans shouldn't be strangers to such templates.

 

[3andstop]

Boy you learn something new every day. I've been playing this game for over 45 yrs, and that was the first time I've ever heard of or seen a contraption like this ball tapper thing.

Until I scrolled down to that post that pictured this ridiculous thing, I had a much easier time understanding the rules than I did the question.

Now that I understand the question, I'm going to start working on understanding why the hell anyone would even consider using one of those things.

Guess you can sell snowballs to Eskimos if you market them well.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Now that I understand the question, I'm going to start working on understanding why the hell anyone would even consider using one of those things. ...

They use them because they rack the balls very tightly, very quickly and without complaints or quibbles by the non-racking player.

 

[3andstop]

Thanks Bob ... .lol, I think I'd still be running down the isle of my old poolroom with a Louisville Slugger if I saw someone smashing 15 dents in my slates.

They use them because they rack the balls very tightly, very quickly and without complaints or quibbles by the non-racking player.

Brings to mind a question that a good friend just asked me. "What's the difference between a pool player and a puppy?"

Eventually, the puppy stops whining.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Thanks Bob ... .lol, I think I'd still be running down the isle of my old poolroom with a Louisville Slugger if I saw someone smashing 15 dents in my slates. ...

I can understand the concern, but the dents such as they are go into the cloth and not the slate. I think the cloth may be wetted prior to tapping, but I'm not sure of the exact procedure. Maybe Hermund can fill us in on how it's normally done. Also, it's not visible in the picture of the template above, but I think the holes are slightly closer than 2.25-inch centers to ensure that the balls are leaning against each other slightly.

 

[mjantti]

I can understand the concern, but the dents such as they are go into the cloth and not the slate. I think the cloth may be wetted prior to tapping, but I'm not sure of the exact procedure. Maybe Hermund can fill us in on how it's normally done. Also, it's not visible in the picture of the template above, but I think the holes are slightly closer than 2.25-inch centers to ensure that the balls are leaning against each other slightly.

Cloth does not need to be wetted. You just place the template carefully in an ideal position and start banging The dents are in the cloth, not in the slate and are rarely affecting the game but the benefits of the dents and fast & accurate racking overweight the possibility of a ball being interfered with the dent while slowrolling in the rack area. The dents are quite small. The template has been used in European Championships and Eurotour for years and works like magic and makes the racking easy while complains and delays due to "bad" racking are very rarely seen. With those dents, you can roll the balls in their place by hand and get a tight rack everytime, no extraterrestrial-looking Sardo device is needed. I think Bob is right, as far as I know, the holes are slightly closer to each other than with a "perfect" rack which makes the balls lean on each other. And after a few weeks of use, the dents are getting slightly larger and further apart and with the template you can fix the dents a little bit closer but that's not easy by any means, because you have to move the template a bit to correct the situation.

Hope this helps.

-Mikko, EPBF referee

 

[Nostra]

Having experienced tapped tables for a while now I must say it's the best thing in pool since sliced bread!

It's a dream to rack the balls and if the table is tapped correctly the rack is perfect every time.

Especially in tournaments this is a great relief. I don't know how many hours I've spent racking and re-racking balls to make my opponent, and myself, happy.

 

[Vahmurka]

the dents such as they are go into the cloth and not the slate. ... I think the holes are slightly closer than 2.25-inch centers to ensure that the balls are leaning against each other slightly.

the above is absolutely correct Bob, and Mikkko seconds that too.
One can actually put a drop of water into the center of a future dent propr to tapping in order to exaggerate it but that's not actually required. Oppositely, if you want to get rid of those dents you can moisten the rack area and let it dry overnight. The cloth will be flat again. This procedure can be performed to correct the problem Mikko mentioned when the rack becomes loose after a while of extensive use.

 

[mullyman]

They use them because they rack the balls very tightly, very quickly and without complaints or quibbles by the non-racking player.

You can't say no complaints by the non-racking player because I can't stand places that don't use a rack. Most places over here now are using those clear donut stickers and people put the balls up by hand rather than using a rack. I hate it. Call me old fashioned but I prefer to use a rack when racking and when being racked for. Also, as for the divots in the slate from tapping......in high powered games like 9-ball etc... the problem with roll off may not happen very often but in a game like straight pool where you move the ball as little as possible, have very very soft shots, and a pubic hair shift one way or the other can make or break your position......and you're spending most of your time in that area, no thanks. I don't want divots in the racking area.

As for the rule, I would imagine a rack area should be outlined. Measuring each time isn't going to work. Should we be required to bring rulers with us these days? Where do we measure from, the outside edge of the ball or where the ball touches the table? If it's the outside edge will it not be a foul to touch that ball with a ruler? You can't get an accurate measurement without touching it and even then it's going to move. Sorry, that area is too gray for some of the nits that you end up playing against. Whoever makes the standardized rules needs to think this one out real well.
MULLY
thinks all tables should have a rack outline the minute the cloth is put on

 

[Nostra]

Also, as for the divots in the slate from tapping......in high powered games like 9-ball etc... the problem with roll off may not happen very often but in a game like straight pool where you move the ball as little as possible, have very very soft shots, and a pubic hair shift one way or the other can make or break your position......and you're spending most of your time in that area, no thanks. I don't want divots in the racking area.

Having played quite a few games on the tapped tables now I can say that I've experienced very few episodes of balls being affected by the divots in the cloth.

I think it's worth it.

 

[Solartje]

living in belgium, many many tables are tapped.
my diamond at home is also tapped.
i play almost daily on the table, and honestly.. the chance a ball rolls off from the divots is ALOT smaller then it roling off from a small piece of dust, or cluther on the table.

now at least if i dont make the wingball, i know its because of me, and not because of a bad rack. its actually BETTER for 14-1 instead of worse. Try racking 14 balls with not a single gap? here every single ball will be gapfree, so u can open packs alot easyer with less power aka more control. Also on the breakshot, you CAN move 2 balls to the side and back to there original place, with a 14 racked balls this is VERY hard, is there is almost always gaps in the lowest line. Give this advantages vs 1/500 chance to have a rolloff that you can notice with the eye... easy choice for me. chalk on your bals will make them roll off 100 times more often then the divots. really, i can't understand why they arent used more often in tournaments. (for players and hustlers, its just part of the thing. If you can't read a rack, thats your problem) but in tournaments where everyone should gave the same equal circumstances, tapped balls are TAH THING

I can't even remember the last time i saw a roll off from the divets.. could easily be almost a half year ago.