Rules Question

[daylate$short]

OK, we're playing a 8-ball league match tonight. My teammate breaks, and makes a ball. He has a shot, so he makes his next ball; gets kinda bad on the next ball, but has a shot. Lines up; he shoots; it looks good, so he lines up on the next ball; shoots it in.......FOUL!!! The opponent says "You didn't make the last ball! It's not your turn!" Our team all saw that our player didn't make the ball before, and that he shouldn't have shot the next one, so it was a foul......but......shouldn't the opposing player have stopped our player from shooting again? Sure, it's a foul if you shoot out of turn, but shouldn't the opposing player inform you that you are shooting out of turn? If he doesn't inform you, then shouldn't you be allowed to complete your inning?

Maybe this is a dumb question, but I guess I've never seen this happen before.

Flame away!

Charlie

 

[WoodyJ]

Kinda depends on the situation.

For exapmle, did the opponent see that your player missed and then turn his attention to setting down a drink and picking up his cue to play and then discover that your player was shooting the next ball after he turned his attention back to the table?

In our league there's a no coaching rule but it has the exception that any member of either team may speak up if they see that someone is going to shoot a wrong ball (which would be include this situation). So, in that event, everyone present who noticed is responsible for not speaking up.

Bottom line. Once the opponent saw a foul he had to declare it. Especially, if the cue ball struck another ball.

 

[Peter@CEP]

OK, we're playing a 8-ball league match tonight. My teammate breaks, and makes a ball. He has a shot, so he makes his next ball; gets kinda bad on the next ball, but has a shot. Lines up; he shoots; it looks good, so he lines up on the next ball; shoots it in.......FOUL!!! The opponent says "You didn't make the last ball! It's not your turn!" Our team all saw that our player didn't make the ball before, and that he shouldn't have shot the next one, so it was a foul......but......shouldn't the opposing player have stopped our player from shooting again? Sure, it's a foul if you shoot out of turn, but shouldn't the opposing player inform you that you are shooting out of turn? If he doesn't inform you, then shouldn't you be allowed to complete your inning?

Maybe this is a dumb question, but I guess I've never seen this happen before.

Flame away!

Charlie

The WPA ruling on this situation is the following:

"If a foul is not called before the next shot begins, the foul is assumed not to have happened"

My opinion ----- blatant cheating by the player and his team but unfortunately because nobody called foul before he shot the next ball, he/they got away with it. Hope he lost the rack

 

[btoneill]

Actually what he did was completely in the rules. No foul occured until the player made contact with the cue ball after his missed shot.

Now, if you're talking about a matter of sportsmenship, the opposing player wasn't using very much of it... but he was completely in the rules.

Brian

 

[btoneill]

Also, why didn't your team stop him from making the shot? It could be that the opponent couldn't believe that you guys were letting him take the shot and decided to watch him follow it thru until it became a foul...

Brian

 

[daylate$short]

Also, why didn't your team stop him from making the shot? It could be that the opponent couldn't believe that you guys were letting him take the shot and decided to watch him follow it thru until it became a foul...

Brian

Actually, our league has a rule that does not allow anyone on the player's team to inform him of anything which did/could happen in his game, i. e. no "coaching" while he's at the table.

Thanks, Charlie

 

[Maniac]

Our team all saw that our player didn't make the ball before, and that he shouldn't have shot the next one, so it was a foul......Charlie

This kind of situation drives me nuts (and believe me, it's a very short drive :grin. Why in the heck would a WHOLE TEAM sit there and watch their own player commit a foul without saying something? The worst thing you can do in a game of pool is give an opponent ball-in-hand, so I am baffled as to why they didn't speak up. It makes you wonder if they were trying to get by with something, but then I don't personally know anyone on this team so I really can't be judgmental. I can't blame the opposing player for calling a foul. After all, it's the shooters responsibility to ensure that the last ball he/she shoots at has fallen into the pocket before the next shot is attempted.

Maniac

 

[Maniac]

Actually, our league has a rule that does not allow anyone on the player's team to inform him of anything which did/could happen in his game, i. e. no "coaching" while he's at the table.

Thanks, Charlie

I would think that telling a player that they have just missed his/her last shot could not possibly be construed as "coaching" in any league. If it is, then IMO, that is a ridiculous rule.

Maniac

 

[Andrew Manning]

OK, we're playing a 8-ball league match tonight. My teammate breaks, and makes a ball. He has a shot, so he makes his next ball; gets kinda bad on the next ball, but has a shot. Lines up; he shoots; it looks good, so he lines up on the next ball; shoots it in.......FOUL!!! The opponent says "You didn't make the last ball! It's not your turn!" Our team all saw that our player didn't make the ball before, and that he shouldn't have shot the next one, so it was a foul......but......shouldn't the opposing player have stopped our player from shooting again? Sure, it's a foul if you shoot out of turn, but shouldn't the opposing player inform you that you are shooting out of turn? If he doesn't inform you, then shouldn't you be allowed to complete your inning?

Maybe this is a dumb question, but I guess I've never seen this happen before.

Flame away!

Charlie

The opposing player should have spoken up, but it's not his responsibility. If your player shot when it wasn't his turn, then "foul" is the only call to make.

How is it possible that your player didn't notice that the ball he shot didn't go in?

-Andrew

 

[Jason Robichaud]

Actually I have done this before. I shot a six ball into the corner (slow roll) and it was going in the heart. About a foot from the pocket (enough speed to drop) I got up and addressed the next ball and shot. The guy called a foul. I laughed and started to shoot the 8... he said the 6 didn't drop that it rolled off and hung up! The guy on the next table pocketed a ball and I thought it was my six falling. The ball rolled enough to hit side rail and horn out to stay in the jaws... about 1/2 diamond.

 

[Junkyarddog]

Since he didn't make the previous ball I would think this is looked at like double clutching the cue ball. The player touched the cue again after the shot therefore it is a foul and opposing player's turn. Telling a player he didn't make a ball isn't coaching that is stating a fact. Every league i've played in that didn't allow coaching allowed you to remind a player of a rule. Also since the players shot was over the team should be allowed to talk to the player while it is the other players turn unless that is specifically not allowed in this league. It seems like some pool teams turn into pool Nazis with league play. What ever happened to sportsmanship and having fun?

 

[ronhudson]

The WPA ruling on this situation is the following:

"If a foul is not called before the next shot begins, the foul is assumed not to have happened"

My opinion ----- blatant cheating by the player and his team but unfortunately because nobody called foul before he shot the next ball, he/they got away with it. Hope he lost the rack

It seems as if you are saying that a foul should have been called before the player shot the next ball, but there was no foul to call until the next ball was hit. Some leagues allow teammates to inform the player he's getting ready to shoot the wrong ball, some don't. Some opponents would inform the player of the impending foul, some wouldn't. If I were in that same situation, there are some people that I have played who would not get a warning from me.

 

[swrooster]

I think your team mate should be beaten and required to buy the team rounds for the remainder of the season. LOL Some wierd things happen when you play league in the "Twilight Zone". I'm sure you won't let him forget it in the years to come. Our last night of league several years ago we were playing the 2nd place team and our fellow member shot the 8 before potting his last ball! It was horrible as he walked around the table twice and we stared in disbelief as there was a similar no coaching rule in effect. He missed seeing the remaining ball...It was funny as there was no way that yeam could make up the deficit. The captain and I whispered to each other and if the immediate loss would have had more implication we would have said something, which would have been a foul, given them ball in hand that would have required the run out at least. It's funny to this day...I'm going to call him now and remind him...he owes me a beer...

 

[TheBook]

Actually what he did was completely in the rules. No foul occured until the player made contact with the cue ball after his missed shot.

Now, if you're talking about a matter of sportsmenship, the opposing player wasn't using very much of it... but he was completely in the rules.

Brian

That is the way I see it. If the player did not pocket a ball it is the end of his turn. No foul was commited until he contacted the CB again. He could have been looking at the leave of the CB before he left the table. When he contacted the CB ball after his legal turn it was a foul.

As for intentionally shooting after missing it is unsportsman conduct. It does not make any sense that a incomming player has to get to the table before the other player shoots again. If that was the rule the incomming player would have to be standing behind the shooter and push him away before he shoots after missing a ball.

 

[TheBook]

Actually I have done this before. I shot a six ball into the corner (slow roll) and it was going in the heart. About a foot from the pocket (enough speed to drop) I got up and addressed the next ball and shot. The guy called a foul. I laughed and started to shoot the 8... he said the 6 didn't drop that it rolled off and hung up! The guy on the next table pocketed a ball and I thought it was my six falling. The ball rolled enough to hit side rail and horn out to stay in the jaws... about 1/2 diamond.

He did you a favor because if you would have made the 8 you would have lost since the 6 was still on the table (assuming you were playing 8 ball).

 

[Tom M]

Also, why didn't your team stop him from making the shot? It could be that the opponent couldn't believe that you guys were letting him take the shot and decided to watch him follow it thru until it became a foul...

Brian

I think the OP meant to say that his team didn't notice the missed ball either, until AFTER the foul was called by the opponent.

 

[daylate$short]

I think your team mate should be beaten and required to buy the team rounds for the remainder of the season. LOL Some wierd things happen when you play league in the "Twilight Zone". I'm sure you won't let him forget it in the years to come. Our last night of league several years ago we were playing the 2nd place team and our fellow member shot the 8 before potting his last ball! It was horrible as he walked around the table twice and we stared in disbelief as there was a similar no coaching rule in effect. He missed seeing the remaining ball...It was funny as there was no way that yeam could make up the deficit. The captain and I whispered to each other and if the immediate loss would have had more implication we would have said something, which would have been a foul, given them ball in hand that would have required the run out at least. It's funny to this day...I'm going to call him now and remind him...he owes me a beer...

Actually, I think we should have lined up and given him what is shown in your avatar!
FLYING ***** SLAP!!

 

[memikey]

The WPA ruling on this situation is the following:

"If a foul is not called before the next shot begins, the foul is assumed not to have happened"

My opinion ----- blatant cheating by the player and his team but unfortunately because nobody called foul before he shot the next ball, he/they got away with it. Hope he lost the rack

Hi Peter and everyone else, interesting qustion. Obviously Peter cites the relevant WPA Rule but exactly how that rule would apply in this case depends on some information that hasn't yet been given by the opening poster.

The first thing that strikes me is that most people in this thread seem to have just assumed that when the first player failed to pot the ball which he "thought" he had potted he nevertheless still met the requirements of a legal shot because a ball hit a cushion. Maybe that is what happened but the opening poster didn't actually say so one way or the other, he might have missed by leaving the attempted pot slightly short of the pocket for example, so let's look at both possibilities.

Let's take the one that most have assumed to be the case first....ie that a ball did touch a cushion when he missed the pot that he 'thought' he'd made.

In that case there was actually no foul for anyone to call when he simply failed to pot the ball that he 'thought' he'd potted. The foul doesn't arise until the first player then hit the cue ball towards another ball when playing the next shot that he mistakenly thought he was entitled to. As long as that foul was then claimed by the second player before the first player then played any further shots, the WPA rules would give the second player ball in hand at that time.

Let's now look at the other circumstances which will actually result in the second player having to claim a foul much earlier than in the first scenario......if the first player had failed to pot the ball that he mistakenly 'thought' he'd potted and at the same time had also failed to cause a ball to hit a cushion then there was already a foul before he took the next shot that he mistakenly thought he was entitled to. Therefore in those circumstances the second player would have had to claim a foul before the first player hit the cue ball for the next shot that he thought he was entitled to. He can't wait any longer than that.

Maybe the opening poster can just clarify the exact circumstances of the missed pot that the first player mistakenly 'thought' he had made....ie did any ball hit a cushion?....... and then one of the two above possibile rulings can be eliminated.

Of course if they weren't playing rules which incorporate the same relevant WPA Rule mentioned by Peter then you'd have to consider all the above in the light of the rules that they were actually playing.

Hope this is of some interest and/or use.