Rules Question

[thinman]

In 14.1 I know that if you hit an object ball with the cue ball but neither ball hits a rail it's a foul. But here's my question. Does the incoming player have to play from behind the head string, or play it as it lies? I have looked through the rules but cannot find anything on this situation. Or I have just overlooked it.
Thanks,
Thinman

 

[3andstop]

As it lies.

Three consecutive fouls by the same player is a re-rack and rebreak as in the opening break.

The penalty is 1 foul for the current scratch and 15 additional points for the third consecutive foul

Some players modify the 15 points penalty into a percentage penalty based on how many points they are playing to.

In other words, if you are playing to only 50 points, the 15 ball penalty is much greater of course than it would be if going to 100 or 150

 

[mullyman]

As it lies.

Three consecutive fouls by the same player is a re-rack and rebreak as in the opening break....if the incoming player so chooses.

Just making an addition to this one.
MULLY

 

[CueAndMe]

I've thought for a while now that a 1 point deduction for a foul is way too lenient. I say bump it up to 5. This plus the 15, at least, for 3 in a row. I has spoken.

 

[3andstop]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3andstop
As it lies.

Three consecutive fouls by the same player is a re-rack and rebreak as in the opening break....if the incoming player so chooses.


Just making an addition to this one.
MULLY


I do not believe there is an option to leave the balls as they are. You modified my quote, and I think you are mistaken. The re-rack and re-break is mandatory.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I do not believe there is an option to leave the balls as they are. You modified my quote, and I think you are mistaken. The re-rack and re-break is mandatory.

Yes, a re-rack is mandatory under the current rules which came into effect in January. People venturing opinions on what the rules say may want to arm themselves with fact by reading the new rules. There is no law requiring you to read the rules, but there is no law against it, either.

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament

The rules are now like they were in the 30s-60s with regard to the 15-point penalty. In about 1980, someone decided that they would screw with the rule and various changes were seen starting about then including a loss of 20% of the match for three fouls and (as was stated above) an option by the non-offending player to take the balls as they sat. I think there was no particularly good reason for a change.

 

[mullyman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3andstop
As it lies.

Three consecutive fouls by the same player is a re-rack and rebreak as in the opening break....if the incoming player so chooses.


Just making an addition to this one.
MULLY


I do not believe there is an option to leave the balls as they are. You modified my quote, and I think you are mistaken. The re-rack and re-break is mandatory.

Yes, I modified your quote, that's why I put it in red. I thought that was fairly obvious. Sorry if it was taken out of context.

And according to Bob Jewett this is a new rule as set forth in the WPA rules. As I stated in another thread the current BCA rules are showing little differences here and there. The current BCA page states:

SUCCESSIVE FOUL PENALTIES
When a player commits a foul, penalization is one point (or more as appropriate) and a notation is made and posted by the scorer that the player is ?on a foul.? The player remains ?on a foul? until the next shot attempt, at which time the foul may be removed by successfully pocketing a called ball, or completing a legal safety. If failing to meet these requirements on the next turn at the table, the player is penalized one point. The notation is changed to ?on two fouls.? If he fails to meet the requirements of successfully pocketing a called ball or completing a legal safety on the third consecutive turn at the table, penalization is one point and an additional penalty of 15 points is assessed (a total of 18 points for three consecutive fouls equals -18 points). The commission of a third successive foul automatically clears the offender?s record of fouls. ?The incoming player has the choice of 1). accepting the balls in position, or 2). having all 15 balls re-racked and requiring the offending player to shoot under the requirements of the opening break. Rules for the opening break apply.? It should be emphasized that successive fouls must be committed in successive turns (or playing attempts), not merely in successive innings. For example, if a player ends inning six with a foul, steps to the table for inning seven and fouls (he is ?on two fouls?), and then starts inning eight with a legally pocketed ball before scratching on his second shot attempt of the inning, he has not committed three successive fouls, even though there were fouls in three successive innings. As soon as he legally pocketed the ball to start inning eight, he cleared the two fouls. He is, of course, ?on one foul? when he plays the first stroke attempt of inning nine.

So, as far as it stands, both of us were right. It just depends on which set of rules you wish to follow. Bob says that the BCA recognizes the WPA rules so does that mean that the WPA recognizes the BCA rules?

Again, I wish these damn billiards associations would get their act together and make one set of standard rules instead of recognizing each other. What a pain in the ass having all these different rules.
MULLY

 

[3andstop]

Thanks for the additional information. Well, I'm old, so I'll follow the old rules.

One of the strategies of taking the third scratch (unless of course you do it unintentionally) has always been to concede the position, take the penalty and attempt to improve on the situation with a re-break.

I'll admit I don't open the various rule books and see what changes from decade to decade LOL, so I did assume no one would tamper with such a fundamental concept. After all it was that way forever! Well, everything went to hell in a hand basket after ball in hand 9 ball, why not this game too. Pretty soon 14.1 will be BIH after a scratch.


edit ....
ya know, I'm going to make a confession. I don't follow pool like I used to, because I hate all this 9 ball more than I hate a visit to the dentist. I stopped playing all together for more than 12 yrs and have recently regained interest only because good old friends and I have gotten together to play our beloved game of 14.1 now and again.

I never even heard of the WPA until your post. Oh, maybe I read something somewhere, but shrugged it off as another beer league or 9 ball tour. At any rate, I decided to visit their website and learned that they formed in 1990.... 1990, that was last week. The BCA should put them over their knee and spank them for tampering with game rules.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Bob says that the BCA recognizes the WPA rules so does that mean that the WPA recognizes the BCA rules? ...

No, it means that the BCA is slow to update their old website. The new BCA website, www.GenerationPool.com, has the new rules but they have left out some of the less interesting ones and have left off the numbers. Sigh.

 

[thinman]

Another question along this same line pertaining to fouls. If you foul and a point is taken away, do you spot a ball for that point? I've read the rules from the BCA site and cannot find any mention of doing this. I know of people that play this way, and I have when playing them. Since the rules don't mention it, should a ball not be spotted.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Another question along this same line pertaining to fouls. If you foul and a point is taken away, do you spot a ball for that point? I've read the rules from the BCA site and cannot find any mention of doing this. I know of people that play this way, and I have when playing them. Since the rules don't mention it, should a ball not be spotted.

No. You only spot balls that were made on foul shots and on safeties. Spotting a ball for a foul during a safety battle would have a huge effect on the game. Also, at the start of the game, there are no extra balls to spot.

The rule actually says:

4.6 Spotting Balls
All balls pocketed on fouls, or on safeties, or without a called ball having been pocketed, and all balls driven off the table are spotted. (See 1.4 Spotting Balls.)​

While it doesn't actually come out and say that you don't spot balls that were not pocketed on the previous shot, I think it's reasonable to assume that the list covers all occasions when balls need to be spotted.