Rules - Shooting over a frozen object ball

Cornerman

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Silver Member
Can someone point me to the correct rule?

Playing cueball fouls only, a player is jacked up over an object ball while shooting at the cueball. The object ball and cueball are frozen. On his warm-up stroke, he hits the object ball on the back stroke, causing the object ball to back up a smidge. The cueball doesn't move.

Foul or no foul?

Do you restore and freeze the pair?


Fred
 
No foul if cueball wasn't disturbed. You have the option to replace the cueball or not.


Edit: yes, i meant replace the OB, not cueball.
 
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The World Standard Rules does not acknowledge 'cue ball fouls only' in the 2009 edition.
Texas Express rules cover 'cue ball only fouls'
APA, BCA-League, TAP and VNEA rules also cover 'cue ball only fouls' but you already know that Fred.

What do you really want to know?

Cornerman said:
Can someone point me to the correct rule?

Playing cueball fouls only, a player is jacked up over an object ball while shooting at the cueball. The object ball and cueball are frozen. On his warm-up stroke, he hits the object ball on the back stroke, causing the object ball to back up a smidge. The cueball doesn't move.

Foul or no foul?

Do you restore and freeze the pair?


Fred
Click to expand...
 
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briandlau said:
No foul if cueball wasn't disturbed. You (as the opponent) have the option to replace the cueball or not. If the shooter restores the OB to its original position without asking and receiving permission to do so, it is a foul, BIH to opponent.
Click to expand...

Just a clarification... from the way that I understand the rule.
 
CB only or any just about any rule, this is a foul every time if you continue to hit the CB. They must stop before hitting CB and ask if you want it replaced.
 
Agreed

I agree with all of the above. Here is the rule as outlined by the WPA:

20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.

I think briandlau ment to say "replace the object ball"...he said cue ball.

Hope this is what you were looking for...Ken
 
Agreed

I agree with all of the above. Here is the rule as outlined by the WPA:

20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.

I think briandlau ment to say "replace the object ball"...he said cue ball.

Hope this is what you were looking for...Ken
 
If the ball is moved back to its original spot (touching) you would need to move it so it is touching the cue ball. If you move another ball into the cue ball isn't that a foul?
 
Cornerman said:
Can someone point me to the correct rule?

Playing cueball fouls only, a player is jacked up over an object ball while shooting at the cueball. The object ball and cueball are frozen. On his warm-up stroke, he hits the object ball on the back stroke, causing the object ball to back up a smidge. The cueball doesn't move.

Foul or no foul?

Do you restore and freeze the pair?


Fred
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Interesting question. Seems like restoring a ball so that it TOUCHES the cueball should be a no-no. If so, then IF the balls were declared frozen, this situation smells foul to me.

Bob Jewett?
 
mikepage said:
Interesting question. Seems like restoring a ball so that it TOUCHES the cueball should be a no-no. If so, then IF the balls were declared frozen, this situation smells foul to me.

Bob Jewett?
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Why would it be a no-no? Restoring the balls at the non-shooter's discretion is the required response here, why should it matter if restoring the balls involves re-freezing the OB to the CB?

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
Why would it be a no-no? Restoring the balls at the non-shooter's discretion is the required response here, why should it matter if restoring the balls involves re-freezing the OB to the CB?

-Andrew
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I agree with this assesment.... Also would it not be the opponents (not the shooter) choice as to reposition the moved ball? I believe he can wave it off and let play continue.
 
Good question.

At Reno Open a few years ago I had a question about fouls when shooting over an object ball that is very nearly touching the cueball and moving the object ball in the process of stroking the cueball. Here's what I was told: If the cueball & object ball are frozen and the object ball moves during your down stroke, it is a foul. If they are not frozen and the cue ball is moved first, no foul, the object ball would be replaced if desired. Iguess there thinking is if they are frozen there is no way to tell which the cue hit first, when not, your cue is allowed to hit the blocking object ball after you hit the cueball.

Based on this definition, it would not be a foul because they were not stroking to hit the cue ball (if it doesn't move) it was while it was moving backwards, however, if it were me I would want the object ball replaced frozen to the cueball because of the possibility of a foul during the stroking of the cueball.

Does this make any sense? It does in my head...which scares the hell out of me.

Dave
 
How would you replace it??? thats why it is a foul. You can't set the CB, OB and ball moved back. It changes the out come of the game. If it isn't why would anyone bother bridging over a ball? Hit it out of the way, get down and shoot, after you shoot, ask if they want it replaced! Even on CB foul only when someone is laying on a ball you can tell them to get off it. CB only doesn't mean you have the right to contact any ball you want!

You would replace it froze to the ball! if they hit (shot the CB), foul.
 
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Jason Robichaud said:
How would you replace it??? thats why it is a foul. You can't set the CB, OB and ball moved back. It changes the out come of the game. If it isn't why would anyone bother bridging over a ball? Hit it out of the way, get down and shoot, after you shoot, ask if they want it replaced! Even on CB foul only when someone is laying on a ball you can tell them to get off it. CB only doesn't mean you have the right to contact any ball you want!

You would replace it froze to the ball! if they hit (shot the CB), foul.
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I agree & good point. I meant to say if it is allowed I would want the CB & OB replaced as frozen based on the definition of the rule I was told. I would hate for this action, if not called a foul, to benefit the person shooting.

Thanks for the clarification...we could use some help with what the real ruling should be. Maybe it is a foul?

Dave
 
mikepage said:
Interesting question. Seems like restoring a ball so that it TOUCHES the cueball should be a no-no. If so, then IF the balls were declared frozen, this situation smells foul to me.

Bob Jewett?
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Ditto Mike. This was my thought process as well. I've also seen it called a foul by what seemed like knowledgeable referee types.

This is exactly why I need someone to point to the reference since I think there must be one that specifically addresses this.

Mr. Stock? Mr. Jewett? Mr. Bueller?

Fred
 
Andrew Manning said:
Why would it be a no-no?
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Rules precedence in spotting disallows the spotting of an object ball frozen to a cueball. This is what makes it an interesting scenario. It's definitely not cut and dry.

Fred
 
Cornerman said:
Rules precedence in spotting disallows the spotting of an object ball frozen to a cueball. This is what makes it an interesting scenario. It's definitely not cut and dry.

Fred
Click to expand...

And it's a foul generally to touch the cueball even if you don't move it.

And with cueball in hand it would be a foul to freeze IT to an object ball, even if the object ball doesn't move, right?

These kinds of things all lead to my "no no" reaction to refreezing a moved object ball.
 
-First, we must agree that the Cue and Object balls must be declared frozen.

-Second, if the ball movement is made on the back stroke and the cue ball is not moved, it is not a foul. Play stops and non-shooting player has the opportunity to reposition the moved ball or leaves it like it 'as is'

-If the non-shooting player wants to keep from moving the cue ball while repositioning the object ball and avoiding the foul, IMO, I would recommend, getting the TD to move the ball (if in a tournament) or a league caption (of another team besides the two playing)

Pointing out the exact rule? I really don't see anything that would specifically cover this situation.
 
I may be wrong, but I do not think that the non-shooting player will or should get a foul when replacing the balls into their original position. I also agree with Tom in Cincy that if the non-shooting party is worried about it to get an agreed upon non-participant to replace the balls.

I also realize that it is at the option of the non-shooting player to decide if they want them replaced or left as is.
 
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