For a 9-ball tournament with players in the skill level of upper 500s and 600s Fargo ratings, no handicaps, rack your own with template, 9-ball racked on the spot, what are some relatively simple rules as where the 2-ball can or cannot be placed in the rack to prevent a pattern racking advantage for the racker/breaker? – Thanks
Rules to prevent Rack Your Own pattern racking with a template, 9-ball racked on the Spot?
- Thread starter ChrisinNC
- Start date
Paul Schofield has a quick, effective method of avoiding pattern racking. I think it's on his website.
The only rule on the 2 that I know of is that it is placed on the back corner.
The only rule on the 2 that I know of is that it is placed on the back corner.
Back corner meaning either of the 2 locations just behind the 9-ball?
No, I mean the point of the diamond that is not the one ball.
The color of money race to 120 with Earl and Efren they racked the 2 at the back as a rule so it's the same for both players, since both were trying to play the 1 in the side pockets. Seems like a fair thing to do if one wants to make a forced pattern rack to prevent someone making one they want. It's not really hard to find someone that does pattern racks, watch them rack. If they are moving balls around instead of just tossing them in the rack, they are pattern racking.
When people give up some "wild" ball as a spot, they usually rack those right behind the 1 in 9 ball since I think those have the least chance of going in off the break, that is also a general "anti-pattern pattern rack" LOL rule that players use.
It's funny how we create pattern racks to prevent pattern racks. 2,3 in corners in 10 ball, 2 on the back in 9 ball, etc..
When people give up some "wild" ball as a spot, they usually rack those right behind the 1 in 9 ball since I think those have the least chance of going in off the break, that is also a general "anti-pattern pattern rack" LOL rule that players use.
It's funny how we create pattern racks to prevent pattern racks. 2,3 in corners in 10 ball, 2 on the back in 9 ball, etc..
I think I have seen something involving a bucket or bowl then you put just the one ball and nine in their places. You could add the two all of the way to the back which is the generally accepted place for it I believe.
As long as someone is putting the balls in the rack by hand pattern racking will be possible and easy to do. If we have hit a million balls chances are we have racked over fifty thousand times. I think a plan "B" is needed, demand a fixed pattern. Have only one legal pattern, and it's mirror image so left handed people don't gain or lose an advantage. I think Mike Segal recommends this for a tough rack, one; three five; six nine seven; two four; eight.
Hu
So I am wondering - if Mike Sigel's numbering system for where the balls are placed in a rack for nine ball is, in fact, the most challenging ball rack pattern, why not create a diamond shaped nine ball rack with nine 2 1/4 inch round cutouts - the rule would be you place the rack with the head ball round cutout centered on the spot and all nine balls are dropped into each cutout in the rack in the pattern such described and the rack is then lifted straight up. No touching the balls allowed- however the rack lies at that point is how it is played. That should equalize everyone's opportunity ( given percentages ) after the break in terms of the rack itself.
The round cutouts would be made of a very thin, but strong fiber, so as to minimize the gaps between balls - there would be gaps, but they would always be the same for everyone, give or take some, and there is no question that over time, the racks become equal for all. The key would be the rack must be placed straight with the head ball cutout directly centered on the spot and no touching the balls or rack at all once the balls are dropped into each slot- only to raise the rack from the table.
DieselPete
Active member
Here's the problem with pattern racking, in a nutshell (or in a video, if you will).
Dennis Orcollo runs a six-pack by pattern racking and soft breaking.
The pattern, from our point of view:
Two
Four, Three
Eight, Nine, Five
Seven, Six
One
After two racks he reverses the five and the eight for the next five racks (including the rack that stops the run).
Two
Four, Three
Five, Nine, Eight
Seven, Six
One
Balls pocketed:
Five in the upper right
Five in the upper right
(Switches the five and the eight)
Eight in the upper right, one in the left side
Eight in the upper right, one in the left side
Eight in the upper right, three gets kicked into the upper right by the two
Eight in the upper right
Eight in the upper right, one in the left side
It appears that the runs are easier when the one does NOT go in the side, leaving him a shot into the side or upper left if he over draws the cue ball.
The run ends when the one goes in and the two fails to come off the bottom rail into the middle of the table because it got kissed. That forces him to push out.
Edit to add, if you want to see the after-break positions, go to 4:00, 7:00, 11:15, 14:45, 17:45, 20:30, 24:15.
Dennis Orcollo runs a six-pack by pattern racking and soft breaking.
The pattern, from our point of view:
Two
Four, Three
Eight, Nine, Five
Seven, Six
One
After two racks he reverses the five and the eight for the next five racks (including the rack that stops the run).
Two
Four, Three
Five, Nine, Eight
Seven, Six
One
Balls pocketed:
Five in the upper right
Five in the upper right
(Switches the five and the eight)
Eight in the upper right, one in the left side
Eight in the upper right, one in the left side
Eight in the upper right, three gets kicked into the upper right by the two
Eight in the upper right
Eight in the upper right, one in the left side
It appears that the runs are easier when the one does NOT go in the side, leaving him a shot into the side or upper left if he over draws the cue ball.
The run ends when the one goes in and the two fails to come off the bottom rail into the middle of the table because it got kissed. That forces him to push out.
Edit to add, if you want to see the after-break positions, go to 4:00, 7:00, 11:15, 14:45, 17:45, 20:30, 24:15.
DieselPete
Active member
Instead of a fixed pattern, why not completely randomize the rack, aside from the one and the nine?
I used a website at https://www.random.org/sequences/ to randomize racks by telling it to generate a random sequence from one to nine. Then just ignore the one and the nine and rack the rest working from left to right, front of the rack to the back.
With one click I get:
567894132
Place the one and nine in their spots and then ignore them in the sequence and rack as:
one
five six
seven nine eight
four three
two
Another click yields:
542176983
one
five four
two nine seven
six eight
three
Last one:
724896513
one
seven two
four nine eight
six five
three
Perfectly random, neither player can complain, neither player can cheat, all with one click on a website. Literally takes one second and a smartphone.
It’s just sad that it comes to that. Too bad I just can’t trust that when you tell all players to rack randomly for themselves, you can’t trust they’ll do it.
For now, we’re going with template, 9-ball racked on spot, rack your own, and must break from the break box no closer than 12 inches from either side cushion.
Definitely sad...
However add the three point rule to the above and you have the best circumstances for a "fair" break imo. The 9 on spot and kitchen placement of the CB makes the break more skill dependant. Once you introduce the 3 point rule the breaker needs such additonal force that the CB becomes a flier if they plan on dropping the dead balls.
Seems easy enough but a lot of people in a pool hall aren't tech savvy and they will still feel you are getting over on them somehow, just the way it is.
This isn't a problem between friends. It is a probable in tournaments and pro pool level players. If you are playing a guy known to shave the dice like Scooter, are you gonna trust his algorithm? Corey's way of winning was often aided by shading things his way within the rules, or close enough something couldn't be proven. Again, would others be comfortable with him retrieving the numbers?
I favor a set rack because there is no advantage to one player or the other. Even if it is just luck that the algorithm likes one player more than the other, it is gonna be hard to make people believe sometimes!
The "random number generator" the Lotto and Powerball uses is anything but random. Buy ten quick picks on two tickets, buy ten separate tickets. The numbers are always more random on loose tickets! This is a multi-billion dollar deal with close government oversight and they can't or don't deliver random numbers, I doubt the phone does either. It should be close enough, pseudo random number generators use a huge pool of numbers. Somehow I don't think players are gonna like the sound of a pseudo random number generator!
By the way, the lotto and powerball have went to software number generators instead of mechanical now. Anybody that trusts that can be sold real estate south of Grand Isle!
Hu
Here is the randomization procedure that Paul Schofield uses and has used for years in the tournaments at his room. From his website http://www.goldcrownbilliardseriepa.com/
The Random Racking Process for Nine and Ten-Ball is fast and simple. Non-breaker gathers object balls and prepares the balls for final racking by the breaker. Breaker assists in gathering the object balls. Non-breaker places the object balls in the triangle. Without looking down at the rack, non-breaker spins the triangle once or twice (shuffles the balls). Non-breaker now looks down at the rack. Non-breaker gets his hands, knuckles, or fingers behind all the balls and then pushes them into the nine or ten-ball configuration. Then, non-breaker, while only moving 2 balls, swaps the 1-ball into the head-ball position. Then, while only moving 2 balls, swaps the 9 or 10-ball into the middle ball position. Breaker steps in and pushes the balls up to the spot. He racks his own balls. He may not change the ball positions in the rack. He may not touch the front 3 balls or the 9-ball.
I’m confused - So you mean the guy breaking gets to put the balls in whatever order they want, or are you saying the guy racking is racking for his own break?
talking where the breaker racks his own. the other person should chose where the balls in the rack go.
in other words the person with the advantage shouldn't get to set up the order of the balls for his shot. and the rule of random doesn't come into play as its too hard to enforce.
but i advocate for the balls to be put on the rack at the short rail and the person racking gets to make one continuous move up with the rack to the spot, and then one push on the back of the balls to hold them in place. then remove the rack. opponent can force another re-rack if not satisfied.
in other words the person with the advantage shouldn't get to set up the order of the balls for his shot. and the rule of random doesn't come into play as its too hard to enforce.
but i advocate for the balls to be put on the rack at the short rail and the person racking gets to make one continuous move up with the rack to the spot, and then one push on the back of the balls to hold them in place. then remove the rack. opponent can force another re-rack if not satisfied.
PracticeChampion
Well-known member
I think just one in front and 2 in rear and alternative breaks should take care of any issues
If the rule is that the cue ball must hit the front ball in the rack first, why does the front ball need to be the one ball?
Why can’t the one ball be placed at random positions throughout the racks?
Change the rule so that the one doesn’t have to be the head ball.
Why can’t the one ball be placed at random positions throughout the racks?
Change the rule so that the one doesn’t have to be the head ball.