Run this rack? How? #2

[renard]

Ok, I ran another rack and sketched the layout. This time I was a bit unorthadox as I got out of line and had to fight to regain position for the runout. How would you run this rack? I believe many will find an easier way than I did:

START(
%Bb6R3%Cj7H1%Dd7Q8%Ec3E0%FD1K1%Gd9P0%Hc4O8%Jk0Z0%Kc1K1%Mb2W4
%Nf6N4%Oa3Q9%Pg9W0
)END

P.S. Made three balls on the break but I suspect I need to look at the racks beforehand!

 

[sjm]

Here's the layout:

 

[jsp]

Tough rack. I doubt anyone would run this rack 30% of the time. Highs are definitely the way to go. You have several break out balls to clear the 8, such as the 11 and the 14, but you don't have a reliable insurance ball if things don't break as cleanly as you want them to. I'll give the run a try though...

13 ball in bottom left corner using stun to hold cue ball position. Then the 10 ball in bottom right using top left spin to go two rails. You want to be straight in for the 11 in the top left corner. Pocket 11 with a little draw to use the 14 as a break out ball. (Falling below the 11 wouldn't be too bad, as long as the 14 isn't in the way. However, getting too high on the 11 would create a problem. For this case, you would have to use the 11 ball to break the cluster.)

You want enough angle on the 14 ball to send the cue ball into the 8 after pocketing the 14 ball in the lower right corner. At this point, you just hope and pray that the cue ball breaks out the 8 and 15, such that you have a clear shot on the 15 either in the lower side or lower left corner. And after pockeintg the 15, hopefully the 8 has a pocket somewhere.

Yup, this rack needs a bit of luck to runout, which is why i rate it at 30% runable. I'd like to hear how others would approach this. Thanks renard.

 

[sixpack]

Here's the layout:

I would start with the 13, firm into the bottom left corner and hit the bottom or bottom-left side of the 2 ball. This breaks out the 15 and if I hit it too high and leave the CB on the two, I have the 10 as a safety valve.

Depending on the way the 15 and CB are after the breakout, I play the 15 in the side IF I can get the right position on the 11 to make it and have position on the 14 I can use to bump out the 8. The 8 goes in the side as the diagram is, but it possibly won't after we bump the 2 on the opening shot.

If the balls end up ideally after the 13, and the 8-ball & 14 ball still go, I play the 10-15-11-14-8 from the following position.

START(
%Bd2P9%Cj7H1%De2R2%Ec3E0%FD1K1%Ge4O8%Hb8N9%Jk0Z0%Kc1K1%MB8[9
%Nf6N4%O^7O3%P_7S2%Wc9W3%Xg3W2%Yb3T6%Zb7V9%[E0Z8%\b2W6%]a3R9
%^b3R9%eB5a8
)END

If the angle on the 15 is not correct, then I play the 15-10-11 top left, 14 bottom right and 8 bottom side.

This is a runout that illustrates the need to be flexible in 8-ball. You have to bump the 15 out (and if done properly, you can make the 2-4-7-6 more difficult for your opponent) and then re-evaluate. I like taking the 13 on the first shot because if you roll funny into the cluster, you have the 10 as a safety valve to get back into position.

If you miss the 2-15 balls off the 13, then you will probably need to re-evaluate the probability of running out and probably need to start considering a defensive strategy.

Cheers,
RC

 

[seiyaryu55]

How about playing the 10 into the corner with left english? I would draw off the 13 back to around where the cue ball started, go off the 10 with left. land the CB somewhere in the area of the 5. Play the 14 into the bottom right pocket, having the CB go into the 7 and 8, pushing out the 15ball. Then slice the 11 into the top side, playing for position for where ever the 15 was pushed to. Looks like the 8 might have to go into one of the side pockets though, but i dont know, i have my doubts that i could run this table.

EDIT:
Oops... jsp basically posted what i would do. Didnt read the previous posts..... My mistake.

 

[renard]

I would start with the 13, firm into the bottom left corner and hit the bottom or bottom-left side of the 2 ball. This breaks out the 15 and if I hit it too high and leave the CB on the two, I have the 10 as a safety valve.

Depending on the way the 15 and CB are after the breakout, I play the 15 in the side IF I can get the right position on the 11 to make it and have position on the 14 I can use to bump out the 8. The 8 goes in the side as the diagram is, but it possibly won't after we bump the 2 on the opening shot.

If the balls end up ideally after the 13, and the 8-ball & 14 ball still go, I play the 10-15-11-14-8 from the following position.

START(
%Bd2P9%Cj7H1%De2R2%Ec3E0%FD1K1%Ge4O8%Hb8N9%Jk0Z0%Kc1K1%MB8[9
%Nf6N4%O^7O3%P_7S2%Wc9W3%Xg3W2%Yb3T6%Zb7V9%[E0Z8%\b2W6%]a3R9
%^b3R9%eB5a8
)END

If the angle on the 15 is not correct, then I play the 15-10-11 top left, 14 bottom right and 8 bottom side.

This is a runout that illustrates the need to be flexible in 8-ball. You have to bump the 15 out (and if done properly, you can make the 2-4-7-6 more difficult for your opponent) and then re-evaluate. I like taking the 13 on the first shot because if you roll funny into the cluster, you have the 10 as a safety valve to get back into position.

If you miss the 2-15 balls off the 13, then you will probably need to re-evaluate the probability of running out and probably need to start considering a defensive strategy.

Cheers,
RC

JSP & sixpack I did take the 13 first, and I will say the bumpout of the 15 ball is an interesting concept sixpack. The angle was there to stun the cueball into the 15-2, but it would have required a hard stroke with the cueball probably just nudging them as an end result.

Which is not bad at all! Any seperation to give the 15 a pocket is good without creating further clusters of course. I remember breifly thinking this then discarding it. I'm not certain why maybe it was the thought of pushing balls toward my already free 11 and 14 I don't know.

This was my position after I pocketed the 13:

START(
%Bb6R3%Cj7H1%Dd7Q8%Ec3E0%FD1K1%Gd9P0%Hc4O8%Jk0Z0%Kc1K1%Mb2W4
%Nf6N4%Oa3Q9%Pg9W0%WD1[3%Xa3W6%Yf6V3%Zc0W2%[c7W4%\g1W2
)END

 

[sixpack]

JSP & sixpack I did take the 13 first, and I will say the bumpout of the 15 ball is an interesting concept sixpack. The angle was there to stun the cueball into the 15-2, but it would have required a hard stroke with the cueball probably just nudging them as an end result.

Which is not bad at all! Any seperation to give the 15 a pocket is good without creating further clusters of course. I remember breifly thinking this then discarding it. I'm not certain why maybe it was the thought of pushing balls toward my already free 11 and 14 I don't know.

START(
%Bb6R3%Cj7H1%Dd7Q8%Ec3E0%FD1K1%Gd9P0%Hc4O8%Jk0Z0%Kc1K1%Mb2W4
%Nf6N4%Oa3Q9%Pg9W0%WD1[3%Xa3W6%Yf6V3%Zc0W2%[c7W4%\g1W2
)END

You probably didn't play it because that nudge sends off a danger signal to any experienced player because they can end up frozen on the two...The only reason I would play it in this case is because the 10 is there as a safety valve. If you make it, you have a great chance to run out. If you miss, the table is still difficult and you can settle in for a strategy game.

I like it also because you change the table early and then have 3 balls to work with to get the 8 out if you need to.

Thanks for the interesting run,
RC

 

[renard]

-Sixpack I definantly noted the insurance of the 10 ball that is why I like this option (I'am second guessing my original decision.)

-Seiyaryu no problem that's why I posted this to begin with to get a feel of other options.

I know when we all run racks we have our own games in mind. We know or should know our limitations and what shots favor a decent outcome. I would also like to know what pitfalls you see in your shot selections and how they outweight the alternative.

Remember there is no right way to run a rack because there is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[sixpack]

-Sixpack I definantly noted the insurance of the 10 ball that is why I like this option (I'am second guessing my original decision.)

-Seiyaryu no problem that's why I posted this to begin with to get a feel of other options.

I know when we all run racks we have our own games in mind. We know or should know our limitations and what shots favor a decent outcome. I would also like to know what pitfalls you see in your shot selections and how they outweight the alternative.

Remember there is no right way to run a rack because there is more than one way to skin a cat.

The pitfall(s) in the way I outlined are as follows:
1) The 13 is a tough opening shot if you have to hit it hard and fight the inclination to cheat the pocket slightly. If the equipment is tight, you might not pull it off.
2) When you nudge the cluster, you have a chance of locking up the 14 & the 8, which makes the end of the run very chancey.
3) I don't like to put myself in a position where I need to be straight in on the second to last ball to get the ONLY position on the 8. Any position error on this rack could be magnified to the point that you'll have trouble getting the position you need for the 8. With the balls there, it not only limits the pockets the 8-ball goes to, but also limits your shape options off the 14, you can't reliably move the CB through clusters to get shape, especially ones that are that loose and positioned in such a bad place.
4) If the 8-ball is locked up after the bump on the 2, you have to violate one of my principles of position play. That principle is never put yourself in a position where you have to play shape on a ball you're breaking out. The margin of error shrinks to where it approaches blind luck in a lot of cases.

Not to pick on the other solutions, but the last point is the reason I wouldn't opt for the runouts they outlined.

Cheers,
RC

 

[bruin70]

i've been staring at this table for an hour, and to be honest, i think the smart thing to do would be to play a safe.

i can't of any pattern that would guarantee a good shot after opening the clusters.

13-10 kills your insurance balls, and i think i need as many of those as possible in this rack.

i'll go 10, lay the cb near the top rail just passed the 3. 11 medium speed to the bottom left pocket to break up the 8/7, hopefully the 15, and still get a shot on the 14 to the top right. if i can see that 14 and the 8 is released to mid table, i can HOPEFULLY go 14-13-15-8 or whatever, or 14-15(to the bottom side) if the 15/2 remains untouched.

 

[renard]

Heres my next shot:

START(
%Bb6R3%Cj7H1%Dd7Q8%Ec3E0%FD1K1%Gd9P0%Hc4O8%Jk0Z0%Kc1K1%Nf6N4
%Oa3Q9%Pg9W0%Qk2O3%Rj1Q9%Wi6Y1%Xh1W6%Yr2Z8%Zk8Z0%[k0S9%\i7[3
)END

What I was trying to do (but did no acheive) was get an angle on the 14 ball for the top left corner pocket at position 'A'. I decided on one rail instead of two for this position. I believe the reason why I came up short (at 'B') is that I didnt want to overroll this position. Then I might be forced into shooting the 11 first and using the 14 ball to breakout the cluster from behind. Not a high yeild proposition!

-Sixpack, your rules for running out are my rules as well. I like your thoughts here. Myself, I try to break out my problem balls as early as I can. The eight and 15 are in dire straights, and breaking them out early in this rack with the 13 or 10 goes against another rule of breaking out balls in the direction of your already open balls. I know sometimes you have to choose the lessor of two evils...

-Bruin, I thought of bypassing the 13 in the beginning as well and it might have worked. But just as I stated above to sixpack I didnt want to go against the rule of breaking out balls in the direction of your balls that are already open. Of course the chances are a bit slimmer it's put in another cluster and that is a viable plan.

So my position came up short and like most games when we get out of line we have to improvise what do you think I did next?

P.S. By the way these runouts are from league play and not just fooling around, we lost this match and I had to runout...still didn't help!!!

 

[Jaden]

wait for the breakout.

Here's the layout:

In eightball you don't want to breakout the balls until you're sure you can run out, so I would suggest waiting to breakout the eight until you get to the fifteen which I would shoot last.

The first ball I would shoot would be the thirteen. I would shoot it into the corner with a stop shot, it looks like there might be a slight angle on it, so I would shoot it with slight right/draw to use the squirt to hange the angle so it could stop pretty much dead.

The second shot I would make would be the ten into the corner. I would use dead center and just come off the rail out to touch the three and stop. it looks like the angle is perfect to come out by the three. I would try to time it so that I didn't have to hit the three because of the difficulty in avoiding a possible safety on my next shot. The goal would be to line up for the eleven in the same corner that I shot the 13.

I would try to stop the ball with little or no angle for the 14 in the same corner that I shot the ten.

I would shoot the 14 with some draw and come back slightly down table from the 5 for the fifteen in the side.

Using a stop shot with a little left on the fifteen with angle should make it carom off of the 2,4,7.8 ;eaving a shot on the eight in the side. Game over.

 

[Jaden]

one other thing.

By shooting at the ten second, even if I were to come up short on the shape for the eleven I would still have the shot on either the eleven all of the way up in the other corner and do the same thing, or I would have the shot in that corner on the fourteen with the eleven in the side, do the same thing on the fifteen to have the shot on the eight in the side and win the game.,

 

[Cornerman]

Ok, I ran another rack and sketched the layout. This time I was a bit unorthadox as I got out of line and had to fight to regain position for the runout. How would you run this rack? I believe many will find an easier way than I did:

START(
%Bb6R3%Cj7H1%Dd7Q8%Ec3E0%FD1K1%Gd9P0%Hc4O8%Jk0Z0%Kc1K1%Mb2W4
%Nf6N4%Oa3Q9%Pg9W0
)END

P.S. Made three balls on the break but I suspect I need to look at the racks beforehand!

Looks like one of my breaks.

I'd fire at the 10 and separate those balls. If I don't luck and get a shot, I'd be forced to give up the table. If I get a shot, I'm going for the runout whatever the layout.

Fred

 

[renard]

Looks like one of my breaks.

I'd fire at the 10 and separate those balls. If I don't luck and get a shot, I'd be forced to give up the table. If I get a shot, I'm going for the runout whatever the layout.

Fred

It was really tempting to do just that with the 10 ball. But I opted for another plan instead. I was looking at the 11 to being a key ball to get to the 15 for a bank. Or when shooting the 14 with proper angle breaking out the 8-15. Either way the 14 was critical in my plan.

My options changed with my position (you know how it goes, too short or too long on position sometimes.) But thats the beauty of our game.

 

[renard]

In eightball you don't want to breakout the balls until you're sure you can run out, so I would suggest waiting to breakout the eight until you get to the fifteen which I would shoot last.

The first ball I would shoot would be the thirteen. I would shoot it into the corner with a stop shot, it looks like there might be a slight angle on it, so I would shoot it with slight right/draw to use the squirt to hange the angle so it could stop pretty much dead.

The second shot I would make would be the ten into the corner. I would use dead center and just come off the rail out to touch the three and stop. it looks like the angle is perfect to come out by the three. I would try to time it so that I didn't have to hit the three because of the difficulty in avoiding a possible safety on my next shot. The goal would be to line up for the eleven in the same corner that I shot the 13.

I would try to stop the ball with little or no angle for the 14 in the same corner that I shot the ten.

I would shoot the 14 with some draw and come back slightly down table from the 5 for the fifteen in the side.

Using a stop shot with a little left on the fifteen with angle should make it carom off of the 2,4,7.8 ;eaving a shot on the eight in the side. Game over.

Your diagramed runout of this rack is close to what I had envisioned. Area position behind the 11 and the 14 gives me options on using either ball to get a breakout angle. I like the pattern you have described, thanks for your input!

 

[bruin70]

in 8ball, if something goes wrong, i prefer that i have balls still left on the table. to me, there's nothing more helpless than running out all my balls and having no shot on the 8.

if it is my shot, i would rather be the player with most of his balls on the table and facing strickland, than the player with no balls left, facing a B player

 

[Guru]

My run at it. Forgot to catch the CB in the captures. Tried a new method to stich the shots together. If it's too much, let me know.

13- 1/2 tip of follow/right
15- 1 1/2 tip draw
10- 1 tip follow/left
11- touch of draw (~1/4 tip)
14- 1 tip right
8- center

 

[Solartje]

didnt put much time in it this time foxyman, but heres what my first idea would be.

pot the 13 witch much power to force the angle and cannon into the 2. this will move the 15 to the middle of the table (doesnt matter much where) , but hopefully enough power to push the 8 to place A or B.

If this works, rest shouldnt be to hard, if the 8 didnt get in place A or B, id go for a safety or maybe other runout patern if still possible.

After potting the 10. i draw 2 options.
A: straight on the 14. pot it in left upper corner, (stop shot), 11 in the top middle stop shot (IF 8 in position A), pot 8. IF in position B... mmm depends what angles u got. u can pot the 11 and push the 8 into position A, or folow true to pot the 8 in the lower right corner... hard to draw all options.

B: just folow B1 B2 B3.

low % runout layout anyway. id still try the first canon on the 2 to push the 8 in a pottable position, but if it doesnt work.. id go for a good safety.

 

[Solartje]

i like guru's idea, but the last position on the 11 to prepare the canon the 8 seems tough. one slightly bad angle and the runout is finished with no balls left to play safe. i still think that IF u wish to go the runout patern, u need to free the 8 ball as soon as possible. not at the end. but i like the banking idea