Why would a big sponsor want to associate his good company name with a sport that has such a well-deserved rotten image ? We see Strickland foul against Charlie Williams and the whole world sees it (except the ref), and Strickland plays on. Then Strickland goes home and wonders why there isn't more money in the game of pool, and some players on this forum defend his actions. You will also see your local pool stars act like a bunch of bums, and they have the nerve to wonder why local sponsors don't pour money into their tournaments. Golf is a big businesss and is managed as such. Players never act up or cheat because they have a code that is enforced. There is zero sharking. The image is everything ! In England, snooker players make a lot of money, so it is clearly possible for our sport to have a good image and make money, but the players have to be kept under control. They obviously won't do it themselves, so I think it is up to tournament directors to run a tight ship. When they announce a rule in the player's meeting, they must later enforce the rule with stiff penalties for violation. After a player or two has suffered the consequences, the behavior will magically get better. Tournament directors have to have some guts and some reinforcement from the players. That would be a starting point.
Sad state of pool
- Thread starter Fatboy
- Start date
bomber said:
I never meant any disrespect. And trust me, I have read and thought about every word you've written. But let me stress my point again. UNITY. One tour, not 15. One league, not 10. I know I'm not the only person out there who plays in multiple events. And I know I'm not the only person out there struggling with money. I'd rather not have to decide whether I go to Vegas for BCA or APA. Imagine if those two events were combined.
Since folks won't quit buying Coca-Cola, Fritos & Budweiser, maybe the route to getting these companies to become sponsors, of our much wanted "Pro Pool Tour", is letters from their customers. That is YOU.
The squeaky wheel get's the grease.
I've been a Golf Pro at one of the nation's finest Country Clubs. I know what goes on in the 19th hole & on the course. I also made a living, gambling in Pool Rooms, when I went to college. Golf is great, because there is money behind it & the AVERAGE idiot can seen the "test of skill" required to win.
Maybe each Tournament should be "FRONTED" by some amatuer play or tournament (especially TV), so the audience can see the difference of skill level, between Ball Bangers, 6 Speeds & Pros.
The Pro's need to be a paying member to ONE organization, which is "IN CHARGE".... The organization would sanction the rules, schedule SANCTIONED Tournaments, attract Manufacturer Sponsorships, sell professionally license products & on & on & on.... This is Golf's way of operating.
Activities, like the head-up matches in the ACTION Room, should be going on in every major city, every week of the year, with the approval of the Professional Pool Player's chosen organization. Otherwise, it is just another unorganized, poorly advertised gambling match, much like what happens today.
The Pro Players don't get anything from these events. The sweaters & railbirds get entertained for nothing. The Pool Room may make a few dollars from concessions, but they too are losing revenue. The door "cover charge" should be split between the Room Owner, The Pro's organization & the playing Pros. Any TV or recorded CDs revenue should be split up too.
So.... if you folks want Professional Pool, you have to help support the newly formed organization & write letters to any & all companies, asking for their support.
The squeaky wheel get's the grease.
I've been a Golf Pro at one of the nation's finest Country Clubs. I know what goes on in the 19th hole & on the course. I also made a living, gambling in Pool Rooms, when I went to college. Golf is great, because there is money behind it & the AVERAGE idiot can seen the "test of skill" required to win.
Maybe each Tournament should be "FRONTED" by some amatuer play or tournament (especially TV), so the audience can see the difference of skill level, between Ball Bangers, 6 Speeds & Pros.
The Pro's need to be a paying member to ONE organization, which is "IN CHARGE".... The organization would sanction the rules, schedule SANCTIONED Tournaments, attract Manufacturer Sponsorships, sell professionally license products & on & on & on.... This is Golf's way of operating.
Activities, like the head-up matches in the ACTION Room, should be going on in every major city, every week of the year, with the approval of the Professional Pool Player's chosen organization. Otherwise, it is just another unorganized, poorly advertised gambling match, much like what happens today.
The Pro Players don't get anything from these events. The sweaters & railbirds get entertained for nothing. The Pool Room may make a few dollars from concessions, but they too are losing revenue. The door "cover charge" should be split between the Room Owner, The Pro's organization & the playing Pros. Any TV or recorded CDs revenue should be split up too.
So.... if you folks want Professional Pool, you have to help support the newly formed organization & write letters to any & all companies, asking for their support.
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Johnnyt said:
I fail to see where pay per view internet streaming supports pro players if in fact that is what this thread is about. Nobody promised professional pool players an unending stream of riches(except kevin trudeau and we all know how that went). They got into the game for the love of the game with thier eyes wide open.
I object to the title of this thread. As far as I'm concerned the state of pool is doing just fine. There are millions of people playing organized pool in North America. Azbilliards.com is a great indication of how many people show an interest in pool, there are almost 12,000 people registered on this forum.
I'm so tired of people whining about the bad image pool has. Guess what pool has great community support around the world. Some governments sponser players and have a mentoring system that provides coaches and other resources. I believe Thorsten Hohmann is a product of a program like this.
It seems that only in America pool has such a bad rep. <-- I could be wrong there, but that's my impression.
My city has enough players to support 4 separate leagues of which 2 of them have more than 100 teams. between league and weekly tournaments there isn't a night of the week I couldn't be playing pool if I wanted to.
If you feel pool has a bad image, it's up to you to change it. Stop whining. If you feel pro players aren't making enough money, do something about it, but please stop BIT<HING.
James will now get off his soapbox
Olympics
This November sounds like a great opportunity there in your city for pool to be on exhibition. Plus the Shane/Earl match, should be an exciting time also for pool. The Clarion hotel is the venue, how is it, will it be a no smoking venue? I'm excited about these events. Louisville is becoming a major "pool town". We need one in the Bluegrass State.
bomber said:
This November sounds like a great opportunity there in your city for pool to be on exhibition. Plus the Shane/Earl match, should be an exciting time also for pool. The Clarion hotel is the venue, how is it, will it be a no smoking venue? I'm excited about these events. Louisville is becoming a major "pool town". We need one in the Bluegrass State.
It is great to hear from someone who is positive in speaking of "the game of Pool".
Does your local Edmonton newspaper report any of the action from the "League Play", so that all citizens in & around your area can see what transpires in your weekly play or at your Tournaments.
That doesn't happen here & I question that. A page in the Sports Section, reporting the news about local, regional, state, national & international Pool n' Billiards would be good reading material... IMHO
As things are now, I never read the Sports Section.
Maybe some letters to some newspapers could bring this about.
Does your local Edmonton newspaper report any of the action from the "League Play", so that all citizens in & around your area can see what transpires in your weekly play or at your Tournaments.
That doesn't happen here & I question that. A page in the Sports Section, reporting the news about local, regional, state, national & international Pool n' Billiards would be good reading material... IMHO
As things are now, I never read the Sports Section.
Maybe some letters to some newspapers could bring this about.
steveharn said:
The Clarion is a great pool venue and Louisville is becoming a major hotbed for pool. My game has jumped 2 balls just by being here for a few months. We have the Q Lympics and the DCC...both great tournaments. I would to see mike janis get in touch with some rooms up here and put on a viking tour stop at one of them.
Some things may never change
Based on comments in another thread, I recently read "The Lions and the Lambs: Pool Players and the Game Today," by Thomas Fensch. "Lions" are hustlers (or other money players); "lambs" are tournament players. A consistent theme was the inability to make a decent living at pool -- especially as compared to, say, golf. Players were bemoaning the lack of tournament money and the sad state of gambling. A table at the back of the book detailed the pathetic tournament earnings for the top players.
The book was published in 1970.
An even earlier book, "Hustlers, Beats and Others," by Ned Polsky, chronicles the decline of pool after World War II. Pool had its run (so to speak) as a big money spectator sport in the early 20th century. For a variety of reasons, pool has lost its luster and its fan base. Without the fan base, there is no advertising base. Without the advertising base, there is no revenue for the players.
This is a sad state for professional pool players, but the same can be said for world-class players in most sports. Only golf, basketball, football, baseball, and a few others have a sufficient fan base to attract big money. Being a world-class skier, fisherman, cyclists, bridge player, table tennis player, or mountain climber is no guarantee of financial security.
As with every other sport, pool has no intrinsic value other than as a form of entertainment. I'm not amazed that the best pool players make so little. I'm amazed that journeymen athletes in other sports make so much.
Based on comments in another thread, I recently read "The Lions and the Lambs: Pool Players and the Game Today," by Thomas Fensch. "Lions" are hustlers (or other money players); "lambs" are tournament players. A consistent theme was the inability to make a decent living at pool -- especially as compared to, say, golf. Players were bemoaning the lack of tournament money and the sad state of gambling. A table at the back of the book detailed the pathetic tournament earnings for the top players.
The book was published in 1970.
An even earlier book, "Hustlers, Beats and Others," by Ned Polsky, chronicles the decline of pool after World War II. Pool had its run (so to speak) as a big money spectator sport in the early 20th century. For a variety of reasons, pool has lost its luster and its fan base. Without the fan base, there is no advertising base. Without the advertising base, there is no revenue for the players.
This is a sad state for professional pool players, but the same can be said for world-class players in most sports. Only golf, basketball, football, baseball, and a few others have a sufficient fan base to attract big money. Being a world-class skier, fisherman, cyclists, bridge player, table tennis player, or mountain climber is no guarantee of financial security.
As with every other sport, pool has no intrinsic value other than as a form of entertainment. I'm not amazed that the best pool players make so little. I'm amazed that journeymen athletes in other sports make so much.
ceebee said:
Hey CeeBee, our valley league used to pay for a page in one of our local newspapers to post it's weekly standings but has since moved to posting on the internet.
You're right though, having events and results in the local media would be of benifit to the game. Like I said(or implied) in my previous post I think it's our responsibility to promote the game and be good embassadors.
You've given me the idea to get the media involved and I think with the league season just starting up I think I will get in contact with some of the different media sources in the city and see if maybe they can put together some sort of feature story.
James
NYC cue dude
Banned
fatboy, it appears that we have the same friend. I too have spoken to him at length about his situation and pro pool in general. You are absolutely correct in stating that he is frugal and has always put the welfare of his family first. What you fail to mention is that he lost 80% of his endorsements, going from 18k per month, to 3k per month in only a 3 month period. That's tough to fade for anyone. Also, he lost the endorsements through no fault of his own, only because of industry consolidation. Those lost endorsements didn't go to other players.
Hopefully his new venture will be profitable. I can't imagine such a high performer in any field teetering on the brink of collapse. This anomaly can only be found in pro pool.
Part of the underlying problems is that there is no separation of the stars from the fans. Player accesibility is too high. Go try to meet barry bonds or brett farve. Its because you cant, people pay to see them and buy their merchandise.
And, until pool cleans up its image (no more savers, dumping, gambling, chopping, calcuttas and hustling) the sponsors will always be few and far between.
If you doubt these underlying reasons, ask the pros themselves. Its no secret. (and yes, i understand that the players do this because there is no money in the game). Players are busy conducting their business, and feeding
themselves. Its a fallacy to believe that players will clean up once the sponsors come. Truth is though, the sponsors are beating on pools door.
Rg
Hopefully his new venture will be profitable. I can't imagine such a high performer in any field teetering on the brink of collapse. This anomaly can only be found in pro pool.
Part of the underlying problems is that there is no separation of the stars from the fans. Player accesibility is too high. Go try to meet barry bonds or brett farve. Its because you cant, people pay to see them and buy their merchandise.
And, until pool cleans up its image (no more savers, dumping, gambling, chopping, calcuttas and hustling) the sponsors will always be few and far between.
If you doubt these underlying reasons, ask the pros themselves. Its no secret. (and yes, i understand that the players do this because there is no money in the game). Players are busy conducting their business, and feeding
themselves. Its a fallacy to believe that players will clean up once the sponsors come. Truth is though, the sponsors are beating on pools door.
Rg
NYC cue dude said:
Once again, I see this as primarily a US problem. I don't believe pool has as big of an image problem as people indicate.
Facts are Pool doesn't make great TV for the majority of the US population. It has nothing to do with the "seedy image" in fact that would in most cases help it not hurt it. Look at Jerry Springer if you don't believe me.
NYC cue dude said:
Once again, I see this as primarily a US problem. I don't believe pool has as big of an image problem as people indicate.
Facts are Pool doesn't make great TV for the majority of the US population. It has nothing to do with the "seedy image" in fact that would in most cases help it not hurt it. Look at Jerry Springer if you don't believe me.
Reality TV has many examples of underhanded deals and peopel screwing each other over. Professional Wrestling makes no claim that it's matches are real, and thrives on sensationalism.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, you can't claim on one hand that pools payouts are low because a seedy image is keeping tv and sponsers away and have hours on end of poker on tv, pathetic reality shows and the circus they call wrestling making huge dollars.
NYC cue dude said:
You just need a better imagination or more exposure to other second or third tier professional games / sports. There is no way a professional curler could earn enough to raise a family on curling earnings exclusively. Likewise for many other sports as Carl pointed out, those participants have jobs. It's just that people want to talk about the MAJOR sports and complain that pool is not one, imo. The world does not owe anyone a living for playing a game. It is nice that some do pay, but to expect this of all games is downright silly, again imo.
Dave
Blame Predator. They're one of the companies that "shafted" the players.Fatboy said:
I'm sorry. I didn't relieze there were only two of you. Wasn't trying to call you guys out. I have enjoyed both of your updates on matches where there was no streaming and too far for most on here to go. Johnnytuwate said:wow...this one was aimed right at me and poolnut. I see your point, but fwiw, I never intended to try and keep business away from TAR. I was just pumped up about the match and wanted to share my enthusiasm with the folks here at AZB.
DaveK said:
Canadian Curling Prize Money Better Than Pool?
2006/2007 Season to March 28
MEN
1. Martin (Edmonton, Alberta) $144,000.00
2. Howard, G (Coldwater, Ontario) $111,661.00
3. Ferbey (Edmonton, Alberta) $105,563.00
4. Burtnyk (Winnipeg, Manitoba) $75,924.00
5. Koe, K (Edmonton, Alberta) $71,000.00
6. Simmons (Davidson, Saskatchewan) $51,400.00
7. Gushue (St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador) $38,000.00
8. Johnson, M (Edmonton, Alberta) $37,600.00
9. Stoughton (Winnipeg, Manitoba) $33,650.00
10. Walchuk (Edmonton, Alberta) $31,600.00
11. Jordison (Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan) $30,000.00
12. Middaugh, W (Toronto, Ontario) $28,500.00
13. Korte (Saskatoon, Saskatchewan) $25,000.00
14. Desjardins (Chicoutimi, Quebec) $24,600.00
15. Base, J (Oakville, Ontario) $24,500.00
16. Charette (Boucherville, Quebec) $24,500.00
17. King (Edmonton, Alberta) $23,500.00
18. Peters (Winnipeg, Manitoba) $18,100.00
19. Cochrane (Ottawa, Ontario) $18,000.00
20. Adams, S (Halifax, Nova Scotia) $17,500.00
WOMEN
1. Jones, J (Winnipeg, Manitoba) $44,048.00
2. Anderson (Delisle, Saskatchewan) $39,200.00
3. Bernard (Calgary, Alberta) $29,800.00
4. Kleibrink (Calgary, Alberta) $29,500.00
5. King, C (Edmonton, Alberta) $24,001.00
6. Lawton (Regina, Saskatchewan) $22,800.00
7. Scott (Kelowna, British Columbia) $22,093.00
8. Norberg (Sweden) $20,312.00
9. Middaugh, S (Coldwater, Ontario) $18,500.00
10. Webster (Grande Prairie, Alberta) $17,500.00
11. Bryden (Calgary, Alberta) $15,800.00
12. Porritt (Winnipeg, Manitoba) $15,800.00
13. Santos (Edmonton, Alberta) $15,700.00
14. Law (New Westminster, British Columbia) $11,400.00
15. Wang (China) $10,600.00
16. Madonia (Mississauga, Ontario) $10,000.00
17. Lindner (St. Catharines, Ontario) $9,900.00
18. Rankin (Calgary, Alberta) $9,300.00
19. Mallett (New Westminster, British Columbia) $8,000.00
20. Sanders (Victoria, British Columbia) $8,000.00
Fatboy said:
By the title I thought you might be talking about California!
or would that be "The sad pool state"?