Safety and Strategy Play in 8-Ball

Colin Colenso

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As has been discussed already here, the best strategy in 8-ball is to run out, but there will be a percentage of games when the layout is too tough.

Someone here has already mentioned the importance of kicking. There is also the situation where a ball is over a pocket, blocking your own. I'll usually look for a way to put my ball onto that ball and get a snooker.

That said, I think my safety / defensive knowledge is pretty limited. I would appreciate some advice from experienced US 8-ball players on strategical insights and usefull training drills to help learn the application of these.

Wish I had some video btw. Accu-stats only has VHS tapes which I can't use. If anyone has some good 8-ball DVD's or digital files I'd love and would pay for some.

Anyone with an FTP site with some available?
 
Colin,

I don't know about DVD's and such but having watched hundreds of games played by, perhaps one of the best, hottest, and most cranial 8ball players to come down the pipe, Dan Louie in the 80's. I noticed that his style/strategy was too create problems in the other set of balls as he ran his own set. He seemed to adjust his patterns to accomplish these problems in the other set even when his run could be done w/o moving any balls of the other set. It was just like buying insurance. Another uncanny thing he seemed to do when playing the safe game was to steer his opponent into shots that may, if poorly hit, open his problem balls. He did this mostly by leaving the cb on the rail and with a bad angle where all you could do was make a tough slow roll shot, the result being after hitting the shot it may not come with good position and missing the shot may open his balls.

I don't know any specific drills but just being able to freeze the white to the rail or close enough to deny anything but top with the shot, can save your skin in 8ball.

Most of the American 8ball played at a high level up to this date has been played on bar box size tables. Some of the best players are no names. Now, with the Kevin tour putting the spotlight and money on big table 8Ball I think we will see these barbox genious coming out of the woodwork. If this tour really gets off the ground and the new bloods start winning their cards to play on the K tour it will be interesting indeed. The old guard better watchout...LOL

I can't wait for the results of the first real event to take place. I wish the new tour all the best. It's too late for me but I will be pleased to watch.

P.S.
I think 8ball on 9footers is easier than 8ball on the boxes. With the pro's playing it will be runout city when any event gets to the final 16. I'm not sure if they will be playing winner breaks but if they do I bet there will be many matches where the breaker will runout sets. This opinioooon could be wrong so don't attack me...LOL Oh, I nearly forgot. I think Fisher and Corr will be very strong competitors. We sure will see...pardon me for babbling...LOL
 
Many times it's just too difficult to run out. Factors like having to let go of control over the cueball and breaking clusters can leave you with a failed runout and an opponent victory. In those cases I often look to run the balls to a lockup safety. Then with ball in hand I can get rid of my problem balls and run out the rest of the rack.

I remember a particular game against an opponent who was much better than myself. He attempted a combination to break a cluster early in the game and failed. The following layout is from memeory and as close as I can remember (though the original might have been slightly different.)

START(
%A^0E1%Bl6Z3%CK0D6%D[3A9%E`9L5%FF1L2%GE2N3%HM9P8%IZ4O1%JM6W7
%KI0V2%LL5K9%MN5Z1%NP5X7%OP4J4%PO0R0%UJ4U3%VN4R4%WD1W9%XI2U8
%YH0Y7%ZC2X3
)END

I played to a safe choosing not to risk a failed runout and was rewarded with ball in hand. After potting the 11, I played safe pushing the 13 in front of the side pocket and feezing up on the 14. He missed his kick and I ran out the rack.
 
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Practice your "end play." Set up 2 or 3 stripes with one solid creating a cluster or blocked ball(s). Pretend you're solids and figure out a way to play safe without leaving your opponent an out. And make it so when you get ball in hand, you can play another safe to leave yourself a runout when you get bih again.

Or place just 2 balls on the table with no good shot and practice safeties by leaving your opponent a long shot that, when missed, will leave you something to work with.

Or place the 8-ball in the jaws and put your only ball right on the 8. Now win with that position by playing some kinds of fantastic safeties. Good luck with that.

One of the most common safeties in 8-ball is hitting your object ball that's near a rail with a half-ball shot and leaving the cueball behind it after it comes off the rail. This one is critical for 8-ball, imho.

As I mentioned in my break post, practice playing safe right after the break. This is one of the most underused, yet effective strategies in 8-ball. These have to be exact, for sure, when playing quality opponents.

Practice with 2 object balls on the table and play safe so one of the ob's go to the other end/side of the table while still safetying the cueball. (It can be good to seperate ob's so your opponent has a harder time playing safe on you, as this makes one side of his safety attempts unavailable for him to hide anything.)

Hope these help...we're rooting for ya!,

Jeff Livingston
 
Sometimes end games get ugly. I don't know how many times attempts at breakouts of clusters fail and the resulting layout looks something like this:

START(
%DF2S8%Fk3T1%Hm7D3%Ml2D9%NK2W1%PU5L6%WD0U5%XE5T2%YI7Z7%ZC2V2
%[o2H3%\J5[3%]G9S0%^T8M1
)END

Instead of making a ball and attempting a breakout from a low percentage spot on the table, I manufacture a breakout ball of my own. There are very few places to hide at this point in the game. The 4 ball represents a great danger and I have seen players take the foul and pocket or kick out the manufactured breakout ball in return. The end result is again ball in hand or a breakout of the eightball with the six ball as insurance.
 
This is a pretty good book. I know some people need the visual means to fully understand concepts thus tapes and DVD's. I don't know of a DVD offhand but I will look around. Some cannot grasp the concept through reading like a good friend of mine says, "Just show me."

The Eight Ball Bible Book @ PoolDawg.com Billiards Store
 
chefjeff said:
Practice your "end play." Set up 2 or 3 stripes with one solid creating a cluster or blocked ball(s). Pretend you're solids and figure out a way to play safe without leaving your opponent an out. And make it so when you get ball in hand, you can play another safe to leave yourself a runout when you get bih again.

Or place just 2 balls on the table with no good shot and practice safeties by leaving your opponent a long shot that, when missed, will leave you something to work with.

Or place the 8-ball in the jaws and put your only ball right on the 8. Now win with that position by playing some kinds of fantastic safeties. Good luck with that.

One of the most common safeties in 8-ball is hitting your object ball that's near a rail with a half-ball shot and leaving the cueball behind it after it comes off the rail. This one is critical for 8-ball, imho.

As I mentioned in my break post, practice playing safe right after the break. This is one of the most underused, yet effective strategies in 8-ball. These have to be exact, for sure, when playing quality opponents.

Practice with 2 object balls on the table and play safe so one of the ob's go to the other end/side of the table while still safetying the cueball. (It can be good to seperate ob's so your opponent has a harder time playing safe on you, as this makes one side of his safety attempts unavailable for him to hide anything.)

Hope these help...we're rooting for ya!,

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

Like this Jeff?
START(
%CD2H7%Ej7E6%HG7D2%LX0D6%OD3P2%Pm2I1%Wk7G1%Xl7H5%Yk3D5%Zk2F1
%[i6D5%\i9D9%]g9D8%^h6C6
)END
 
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cheesemouse said:
Colin,

P.S.
I think 8ball on 9footers is easier than 8ball on the boxes. ...LOL
Click to expand...

I hear this often, but everytime I see the best bar box players playing in a tournament on 9 footers against 9' table players, the bar boxers generally do not win even with the handicaps they are given.

Most of the problem on the 9' tables deal with longer position play, more difficult safeties and shot making. I always thought that if a bar box player wants to improve, they should play on the 9' tables as often as they can.
 
renard said:
Like this Jeff?
START(
%CD2H7%DI4H1%Ej7E6%HG7D2%LX0D6%OD3P2%Pm2I1%Wk7G1%Xl7H5%Yk3D5
%Zk2F1%[i6D5%\i9D9%]g9D8%^h6C6
)END
Click to expand...

Yes, the half-ball hit safety. It can be even more effective if you can safe the cueball so a one-rail kick is impossible because of an interference ball down table. Another really good safety there might also simply leave the cueball stuck right onto the side of the object ball so that even that end-rail kick becomes impossible. This additional nuance can be dangerous and requires a lot of touch but is very devastating to the incoming player...something necessary at that high level of play, I'd think.

Jeff Livingston
 
Pete,
I agree but most of really good barbox 8ballers all ready play pretty salty on the big tables it is just that there to date have been few 8ball events worth playing in on the big tables utill now. I'll bet they are all ready sharpening their games on the big boxes...
 
renard said:
This is a pretty good book. I know some people need the visual means to fully understand concepts thus tapes and DVD's. I don't know of a DVD offhand but I will look around. Some cannot grasp the concept through reading like a good friend of mine says, "Just show me."

The Eight Ball Bible Book @ PoolDawg.com Billiards Store
Click to expand...

I don't mind learning from reading, but one guarantee from watching real pros play is you see what shots they are playing and how often.

I'm tempted to by the Eight Ball Bible and possibly Phil Capelle's 'Play your best 8-ball' Anyone reviews?

My one worry is that much of it may be too simplistic.

I wish these guys would just sell pdf versions for a few bucks.

I also see that the author of the Eight Ball Bible, R.Givens edited Freddy's new book, banking with the Beard. I was thinking some of the banking wisdom may be useful in improving my 8-ball.
 
chefjeff said:
Practice your "end play." Set up 2 or 3 stripes with one solid creating a cluster or blocked ball(s). Pretend you're solids and figure out a way to play safe without leaving your opponent an out. And make it so when you get ball in hand, you can play another safe to leave yourself a runout when you get bih again.

Or place just 2 balls on the table with no good shot and practice safeties by leaving your opponent a long shot that, when missed, will leave you something to work with.

Or place the 8-ball in the jaws and put your only ball right on the 8. Now win with that position by playing some kinds of fantastic safeties. Good luck with that.

One of the most common safeties in 8-ball is hitting your object ball that's near a rail with a half-ball shot and leaving the cueball behind it after it comes off the rail. This one is critical for 8-ball, imho.

As I mentioned in my break post, practice playing safe right after the break. This is one of the most underused, yet effective strategies in 8-ball. These have to be exact, for sure, when playing quality opponents.

Practice with 2 object balls on the table and play safe so one of the ob's go to the other end/side of the table while still safetying the cueball. (It can be good to seperate ob's so your opponent has a harder time playing safe on you, as this makes one side of his safety attempts unavailable for him to hide anything.)

Hope these help...we're rooting for ya!,

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

Lots of good advice from Jeff and others, thanks.

It really helps to get my mind focused on what aspects are important and then how to develop my training and thinking.

Most these shots I used pretty often in Australian 8-ball. The big difference is that we have a 2 shot rule, a foul-snooker rule and no ball-in-hand. That makes end play strategy a bit different.

For example, knocking another ball up near a cluster so you can carom the ball out with BIH is a useful one. But I suspect the opponent may choose to foul delibeately, hitting this ball out of the way or even pocketing it if the cluster is hard to work with.

I think the method below may often be a better option.
 

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Your above post is in the same mind set as this post but it was posted as I was writing it so please forgive any duplication of strategy.

One common end game problem

This solution has two steps. By doing it in two steps you have much more control over the outcome.

first try to get you opponent hooked behind your ball to get ball in hand without disturbing the rail cluster much ( chefjeff style safety). The first step may take a few innings.

START(
%Eg3Z3%HG7D2%Oe5Z4%Pf5V9%Wk7G1%Xl7H5%Yk3D5%Zk2F1%[i6D5%\i9D9
%]g9D8%^h6C6
)END

use your ball in hand shot to clear the cluster

START(
%Ef8Z3%HG7D2%O`7Z8%Ph2Z9%Wk7G1%Xl7H5%Yk3D5%Zk2F1%[i6D5%\i9D9
%]g9D8%^h6C6
)END

best case is to leave two rails or more kick but even if you do leave a one rail kick and he hits his ball odds are that you will still be left with an out.

Even early in the run when you have a bunch of balls on the table it can be a good way to end an inning rather than going for a lower percentage breakout.
 
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breakup said:
Your above post is in the same mind set as this post but it was posted as I was writing it so please forgive any duplication of strategy.

One common end game problem

This solution has two steps. By doing it in two steps you have much more control over the outcome.

first try to get you opponent hooked behind your ball to get ball in hand without disturbing the cluster rail cluster much ( chefjeff style safety). The first step may take a few innings.

START(
%Eg3Z3%HG7D2%Oe5Z4%Pf5V9%Wk7G1%Xl7H5%Yk3D5%Zk2F1%[i6D5%\i9D9
%]g9D8%^h6C6
)END

use your ball in hand to shot to clear the cluster

START(
%Ef8Z3%HG7D2%O`7Z8%Ph2Z9%Wk7G1%Xl7H5%Yk3D5%Zk2F1%[i6D5%\i9D9
%]g9D8%^h6C6
)END

best case is to leave two rails or more kick but even if you do leave a one rail kick and he hits his ball odds are that you will still be left with an out.

Even early in the run when you have a bunch of balls on the table it can be a good way to end an inning rather than going for a lower percentage breakout.
Click to expand...

Breakup,
I like this shot!

Especially if the balls are sitting right so that it's not too hard to wedge the CB in very safe. Then it's worth considering even in early play in preference to taking on a difficult kiss to break them up during the run.

It hurts when you do all the work for the opponents :mad:

This type of strategy shot is a perfect example of ideas I'd like to see here. It would be great info for a book. "100 safety play strategies for winning 8-ball".

The key is to practice looking for these so that you can recognize them quickly in competition.

I know often during a run out attempt, position gets messy and the odds start declining, but I'm so set on finishing I'm sure I overlook some opportunities to get back into the game with a defensive strategy.

It's much like Chess, where the world's best can surmise their chances for various strategical choices many shots in advance. I read about a Chess player who trains for 10 hours per day in the lead up to big tournies. His purpose is to get his mind sharp at processing the information, and to build his mental endurance, not to discover new strategies.

I think this attitude to pool can be very beneficial too.
 
Colin Colenso said:
I don't mind learning from reading, but one guarantee from watching real pros play is you see what shots they are playing and how often.

I'm tempted to by the Eight Ball Bible and possibly Phil Capelle's 'Play your best 8-ball' Anyone reviews?

My one worry is that much of it may be too simplistic.

I wish these guys would just sell pdf versions for a few bucks.

I also see that the author of the Eight Ball Bible, R.Givens edited Freddy's new book, banking with the Beard. I was thinking some of the banking wisdom may be useful in improving my 8-ball.
Click to expand...
Colin!!!
What are you waiting for? They got several 8 ball matches on pay-per-view at the accu-stats website. You can watch it immediately!
 
Colin Colenso said:
I don't mind learning from reading, but one guarantee from watching real pros play is you see what shots they are playing and how often.

I'm tempted to by the Eight Ball Bible and possibly Phil Capelle's 'Play your best 8-ball' Anyone reviews?

My one worry is that much of it may be too simplistic.

I wish these guys would just sell pdf versions for a few bucks.

I also see that the author of the Eight Ball Bible, R.Givens edited Freddy's new book, banking with the Beard. I was thinking some of the banking wisdom may be useful in improving my 8-ball.
Click to expand...
One thing is for sure: Phil Capelle's book on 8 ball is FAR from simplistic. It's actually a pretty exhaustive analysis of the game. I've yet to see an 8 ball move that you couldn't find in that book!

There will be two or three chapters that are basic and you'll wanna skip... But everything else is a gem.
 
Colin Colenso said:
I don't mind learning from reading, but one guarantee from watching real pros play is you see what shots they are playing and how often.

I'm tempted to by the Eight Ball Bible and possibly Phil Capelle's 'Play your best 8-ball' Anyone reviews?

My one worry is that much of it may be too simplistic.

I wish these guys would just sell pdf versions for a few bucks.

I also see that the author of the Eight Ball Bible, R.Givens edited Freddy's new book, banking with the Beard. I was thinking some of the banking wisdom may be useful in improving my 8-ball.
Click to expand...

I agree that most books have a simplistic approach and you might use a third of it at the very most. It has to be marketable to the beginer on up.

That's why do enjoy watching the pro's play. I find myself near the practice tables asking them questions. My first statement goes something like this, "I know your busy preparing but I've got a few questions about the game I would like to ask you. If you would rather not at this time I understand and I'll just watch." I haven't been turned down once. Sometimes the time span differs with each pro but for the most part they have been very cordial. From 5 minutes to 90 minutes with five different pro's.

The 90 minutes was with Cory D. He was in town for the Viking tour and was practicing between matches. He was serious about the game and to the point.

I would like to get Beards book as well...sounds like a Christmas present.
I don't know about Phils book I haven't read it but I have 2 others by him.
Larry Schwartz I think has something out on eight ball but I can't remember if it's a book or tape. I'll check...
 
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned, at least on this thread, is that you can manufacture break balls during the run as well. Much like straight pool... Ball-bumping - both to improve your layout and to worsen your opponent's (always play both groups) - is, I think, one of the most sophisticated aspects of the game.
 
Here's a move: playing both groups

START(
%ED2Z6%FN4Y3%JH4Q4%OI9Y5%PT5U9%WJ7[0%XK2[2%YF3Z3%ZI6Z3%[L2[0
%\M6Y8%]H7S4%^I6X5
)END

This may be basic for many in the forum, but I've seen people play the 3 ball combo in these kinds of positions too many times. Had they played the "squeeze-by" shot, they'd also create a cluster for their opponent. Opportunities like that ABOUND in 8 ball, but it takes a trained eye to capture them. BTW, the other balls were omitted for clarity. :)
 
renard said:
Like this Jeff?
START(
%CD2H7%DI4H1%Ej7E6%HG7D2%LX0D6%OD3P2%Pm2I1%Wk7G1%Xl7H5%Yk3D5
%Zk2F1%[i6D5%\i9D9%]g9D8%^h6C6
)END
Click to expand...

Hmm. I see a free shot here and with this layout, I'm 80-90% sure to run out from here, and the remaining 10-20% comes from the first shot which leaves almost nothing to my opponent. Don't want to duck when there's a free shot. And I'm talking about playing a world beater here. Playing excessive safeties in 8-ball will get you into trouble sooner or later.

START(
%CD2H7%DI4H1%Ej7E6%HG7D2%LX0D6%OD3P2%Pm2I1%WK2I0%Xl7H5%YD4L6
%ZI3H8%[N4Z0%\C7M0%]D2D2%^H6G4
)END
 
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