Same players winning small weekly tournament

[Craig Fales]

Dumb question....

How do you most fairly run a handicap 8-ball tournament? I don't know a thing about this, so please explain the details.

ie. How would I assign a handicap to each player? The better players are in leagues or have played in tournaments and have known skill levels. The lesser skilled players have no known league or tournament skill levels, plus the thing with a new unknown player showing up.

And something which will probably wreck this whole handicap idea is that the tournament is held on a weeknight, many people have to get up early the next day for work (some 4 or 5 am)...

So the tournament *must* be a race to 1 so it will end by 10 PM.

A good place to start is to use the APA ranking type system to handicap players....if an unknown player comes in give them an average handicap...if you see they are "laying down" raise their handicap and specify this at the beginning of the tournament...as for pleasing everyone, that isn't going to happen so those that have to get up earlier will probably not be able to play....
________

 

[Billy_Bob]

Don't you think you'll have the same problem on the remaining three Tuesdays of each month?

Not at all. I assure you, if we get 4 bangers winning on that first Tuesday, the whole "county" will know about their wins with a quickness!

(I'm teaching a banger how to play [now ex-banger] and I took him to a tournament where he took 3rd. This was 3 weeks ago and he is still talking about his win. Now he can't wait to go back to that tournament each week.)

So they will probably be talking about their wins (bragging) for a month or two. Then everyone else will figure if that person can win, then so can I, etc.

 

[stick8]

Howdy: I run weekley tourny , rated, from 2 to a 7minus 1, 7minus one gives all player excert the 2-3 a game give 2 the 7 ball the 3- the 8 ball. workes well in 9 ball. i allso have a tournyment once month for 2-3-4 onley they get to play on their level ggod times by al STICKl

 

[PopAndSlop]

winning enhances the pot

What I do is my bar guarantees 100$ for 1st place. When you win 1 week you get the full pot but for the next 3 weeks you only take in 50$ and the other 50$ rides. Everytime you win it extends your "handicap" for 3 more weeks. So if you keep winning you keep getting only 50$ and the pot grows for when you finally lose.

 

[alstl]

The people who can't win always whine. That's the way it is. What's funny is that you could handicap it to the point where it's absurd and those same players probably still can't win and they'll end up whining some more. Tell them to practice if they want to win.

What you could do is make the winner sit out a week or if someone wins 2 weeks in a row make them sit out a week or two - something along those lines. Handicapping, in my opinion, only brings about a whole new thing that the whiners can whine about ("why is so-and-so rated this and I'm that?", etc.).

I had to laugh when I saw this. I played in my first ever 9 ball tournament a while back, $15 entry fee. It was a handicap tourney and they gave me a high handicap because they didn't know me, they said I could be a pro coming in to steal the money. So, I lose both matches to lower handicaps and they said next week they would lower my handicap. Next week I went back, they gave me the same handicap (they told me they could tell I'm good because of my stroke). I Lost both matches again to lower handicaps.

So, I never played 9 ball before in my life and in two weeks I'm 0-4 against guys with lower handicaps than me. I didn't complain, but I didn't go back to throw away another $15.

Based on this I would have to agree, a handicap system won't solve the problem.

 

[Cornerman]

Ihowever I think the lesser skilled players feel that they have no chance of winning ever, become discouraged, and stop showing up.

Just for clarity, is this a fear, or have the lesser player really stopped showing up?

What have you done to get lesser skilled players to come back to the tournament *or* attract more better skilled players to the tournament?.

Usually, the tournaments where the lesser skilled players have an opportunity to play or win will continue to thrive. So,

• one-game, double elimination 8-ball tournaments (not the greatest)
• Loser break, race to 3 9-ball, race to 2 on the B side (this is the great Airway Billiard weekly)
• blind draw, high skill/low skill (but without using handicaps) scotch

Fred

 

[jjinfla]

Keep in mind that most bar tournaments are there to bring in customers for the bar. They are not there as an easy paycheck for the best player who might only buy one bottle of water, take first place money, and go home.

 

[hustlefinger]

Another idea you could try – is to split the field up. If possible, divide the players into two groups, like “good” players and “not-so-good” players. And then place one group in the upper half of the tourney chart and the other in the lower half. Make sure that they don’t flip-flop halves. Or even four groups and then have handicap races to the finials. Essentially, have several small tourneys with the winners playing off for the overall championship. We had an 8-ball tourney like this for a number of years, race to 2 in winner’s side and race to 1 on the loser’s side. But the finial match would be like a 5 to 2 race, good vs. not-so-good.

It’s hard to handicap 8-ball given a certain time criteria.

Rick

 

[jnav447]

I had the same problem - I do 2 things - I have a rule that first place has to sit out a week. My second solution is to spread the winnings more equally - like - $65, $50, $35, $24 as an example - or pay down many places. Anything to not encourage all the hustlers in town to come play in my tournament. If they know they arent going to make a ton of money - they wont come.

IMO, this is the best advice I've seen. Above all, keep it simple and manageable so if you're not there or move, or whatever, it can easily be passed on to someone else to run. The more complicated you make these things, the more complaining you get, and the more frustrating it gets for the TD. Put a keep-it-simple-stupid person in charge, and things work; put an "I've got another great idea" person in charge, and you're on the "road to perdition".

 

[shag_fu]

I've been running a weekly 8ball tourney for about a year. I've mostly solved the 1player dominance problem. First solution was to pay more spots. I try to pay at least top 25% of the field. Format is a quick race to 1 dble elim. We play with "bar rules" 8- ball... i.e. no table fouls(ball to a rail, wrong ball, etc) scratch is in the head string. I also dont allow obvious safety play. All players must call an attempt a legal shot. i've found by forcing better players to runout at any oppurtunity without ducking, it usually gives a weaker player a chance at the table. So far no one has won more than 2 weeks in a row. The payout sheet always has different people on it. I average about 20 players a week.

I would handicap it, but developing a handicap system is hard and time-consuming. It is also difficult to implement fairly.

 

[Anthony_Beeler]

This issue is one that I feel strongly about. From age 12-20 I played in tournaments with all comers and took my share of beatings. Now that I occasionally win several of the local tournaments people are always crying "don't let him play." The semi pro players are always the ones who take the real hit. I am not trying to speak out of turn but players like Stan Shuffett, David Rice, and Mike Blevins and other good regional players are always discriminated against. They are slightly below pro speed, but play better than most "A" players. What is the purpose of trying to get better if you can't play when you achieve a fairly high level of play. My experience is that handicapped tournaments are never administered fairly (at least not in my experience). They let a local guy who plays "A" speed play but will bar players with equal or slightly better speed. All this does is create a new guaranteed weekly winner ( just lower on the chain). Also, locally several places will not allow you to play in the weekly tournaments but would allow you to play in the monthly tournaments (with Shannon Daulton, Charlie Bryant, Larry Price, Bobby Pickle, John Brumback, etc...). This is just my opinion but it is very difficult to play and beat pro players when you are playing all the time. However, it is almost impossible when you are barred and can only play once a month. My experience is that the players who are crying about certain players playing in events don't have a shot to win anyway, and probably never will. If they want to win tournaments they can put in the time like everyone else, but thats just my opinion.

 

[Anthony_Beeler]

I had the same problem - I do 2 things - I have a rule that first place has to sit out a week. My second solution is to spread the winnings more equally - like - $65, $50, $35, $24 as an example - or pay down many places. Anything to not encourage all the hustlers in town to come play in my tournament. If they know they arent going to make a ton of money - they wont come.

This is the best solution that I have seen! Good idea!

 

[sharandrew]

improvemnt

I have run over 3000 weekly tourny over 20 years. A lot of things can workin this situation some addressed in this thread, but bottem line is that everyone needs to get better and beat that person

 

[cuetechasaurus]

I run a small weekly 8-ball tournament (in a small town) and it is getting to where the same players are winning every week.

There is a wide gap between the better players and the lesser skilled players. The better players can leave good position with the cue ball for their next shot and the lesser skilled players can not. So not much of a contest.

And I am one of the players who can get into the money each week. I tried "intentionally not playing well" (to spread the "cheer" a bit), then I was criticized by the other players for "dumping games". So I started playing good each tournament and now I'm hearing criticism about how "The same people are winning each week". I can't win for losing!

I would prefer that no players be restricted from playing in the tournament ever (best for me), however I think the lesser skilled players feel that they have no chance of winning ever, become discouraged, and stop showing up.

Has anyone else had this problem of the same players winning each week, then the number of people showing up to play goes down, down, down?

What have you done to get lesser skilled players to come back to the tournament *or* attract more better skilled players to the tournament?

We charge $3 and pay 4 spots. The thinking behind paying a 4th place is that different lesser skilled players will "get into the money" and this will encourage them to come back.

Arent you the same guy who says that you ride the 9-ball because you dont know how to play position? I think you are full of yourself.

 

[Billy_Bob]

Just for clarity, is this a fear, or have the lesser player really stopped showing up?...

Yes attendance is down a bit. And I know these guys (bangers). If they lose a few games when playing for fun, they quit playing or go home.

I was playing one of these guys last night for fun and beat him twice. So then he moves to the other table along with a few others I kept beating. Then he beat all of them a few times and announced "No one can beat me!"

After I had been there several hours and lost only two times, all the other players had moved to the other table and only one guy would play me any more. So they don't like to lose and will arrange things so they can win every once in a while by picking and choosing who they play.

I on the other hand love to play all night against someone who can beat me every game. I learn from this and become a better player. Note that it was one of the best players who continued to play me even though I kept winning (he got me once).

One time a very very good player was visiting my small town. Absolutely no one would play him. I played him all night long, lost every game, and was happy as could be...

 

[chefjeff]

Yes attendance is down a bit. And I know these guys (bangers). If they lose a few games when playing for fun, they quit playing or go home.

I was playing one of these guys last night for fun and beat him twice. So then he moves to the other table along with a few others I kept beating. Then he beat all of them a few times and announced "No one can beat me!"

After I had been there several hours and lost only two times, all the other players had moved to the other table and only one guy would play me any more. So they don't like to lose and will arrange things so they can win every once in a while by picking and choosing who they play.

I on the other hand love to play all night against someone who can beat me every game. I learn from this and become a better player. Note that it was one of the best players who continued to play me even though I kept winning (he got me once).

One time a very very good player was visiting my small town. Absolutely no one would play him. I played him all night long, lost every game, and was happy as could be...

Your last line is the best way to think about competition, imho.....perhaps you could spread that paradigm amongst the bangers. Personally, I love to get my ass kicked by a great player...I learn so much more than I do by winning against bangers.

Give 'em a copy of my interview with Don. I'll give you a commission on any sales.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Billy_Bob]

...Give 'em a copy of my interview with Don. I'll give you a commission on any sales.

Jeff Livingston

Well I'm sorry to say these guys (the bangers) don't read anything! I made up a one page summary of BCA rules and they won't even read that! I had to "show" them.

 

[mworkman]

Geez, I would think that with a race to "1" you wouldn't have the same players winning all the time. How many players have you been getting at these tourneys? If you have a lot of people and most of them are of the B ranking, I think they should have a seperate night just for them. Make one night a B night, and another night open for all. You may find a lot of B players will still play in the open tourney.

 

[ShootingArts]

A thought

A thought to keep the bangers coming back: Take a cut of the pot about equal to halfway down the payout and put it on the side for a drawing at the end of the match with only the numbers of the people finishing out of the money being in the drawing. You will have one happy banger every week and that is a big help. If you can afford it, leave the pot alone and toss in the drawing payout.

From a business standpoint I do like the idea of winners skipping a week or starting double elimination one game down, maybe both. Tough to set up tournaments that don't cause discontent but if you aren't increasing business with them then you shouldn't be running them.

Hu