Samsara Break Tip Fail - what did I do wrong?

FML.

One miscue last night sent the tip flying across the room again.

Both layers of the tip pads still look/feel rick solid on the ferrule and against each other. It separated between the tip and the pad.

Looking at it under magnification I see lots of little cracks in the glue and light spots where the glue is lifting up off the back of the tip. This stuff just refuses to stick to this tip

I'm officially giving up on this combination. Will have to decide if I want to even bother with trying a different glue/epoxy or just give up and try a different tip. Considering I've already cut down half the height and turned down the edges twice, I'll probably give up on the tip....what a waste of $15 :(


So.....anyone have any suggestions for a break tip NOT prone to popping off?
 
kavik79 said:
FML.

One miscue last night sent the tip flying across the room again.

Both layers of the tip pads still look/feel rick solid on the ferrule and against each other. It separated between the tip and the pad.

Looking at it under magnification I see lots of little cracks in the glue and light spots where the glue is lifting up off the back of the tip. This stuff just refuses to stick to this tip

I'm officially giving up on this combination. Will have to decide if I want to even bother with trying a different glue/epoxy or just give up and try a different tip. Considering I've already cut down half the height and turned down the edges twice, I'll probably give up on the tip....what a waste of $15 :(


So.....anyone have any suggestions for a break tip NOT prone to popping off?
Click to expand...

Kavik79:

You're throwing the baby out with the bath water. Don't give up on the tip! You received multiple responses advising you to use a different glue. I even shared with you the fact that you do the "waxpaper test" with CA glue (make a pool of it that hardens into a button), and then easily snap that button in half, showing how brittle CA glue is when it dries. And when you inspected the area yourself where the tip had popped off, what did you find? Just what I shared with you -- that the glue is too brittle for this job, and "shrinks away from" the surfaces that it's supposed to bond to.

Try either epoxy or polyurethane glue (e.g. the Gorilla or [better] Elmer's brands). Make sure to follow the instructions for either one (e.g. with epoxy, make sure to mix it WELL, and with polyurethane glue, make sure to wet both surfaces).

Again, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Give it one last try. This should be your last try with this tip. And I'm betting this time, it will "stick." ;)

-Sean
 
kavik79 said:
FML.

One miscue last night sent the tip flying across the room again.

Both layers of the tip pads still look/feel rick solid on the ferrule and against each other. It separated between the tip and the pad.

Looking at it under magnification I see lots of little cracks in the glue and light spots where the glue is lifting up off the back of the tip. This stuff just refuses to stick to this tip

I'm officially giving up on this combination. Will have to decide if I want to even bother with trying a different glue/epoxy or just give up and try a different tip. Considering I've already cut down half the height and turned down the edges twice, I'll probably give up on the tip....what a waste of $15 :(


So.....anyone have any suggestions for a break tip NOT prone to popping off?
Click to expand...

FWIW, I use 2-part epoxy on all of my tip jobs, whether they're a Kamui/Moori/Tiger etc. playing tip or a Samsara break tip. I have installed no less than a half dozen Samsara's for myself and friends and have yet to have one come off. The reason I prefer the 2-part epoxy is because although it dries rock-hard, it always remains a bit tacky to the touch on the outside. This tackiness aids in the tip clinging to the ferrule. Next time you use a 2-part epoxy, leave the remainder of the unused glue smeared on a piece of slick paper (like wax paper or a mailing flyer). After 24 hours, go and press the tip of your finger on the surface of the spot of glue. It will have a sticky/tacky feeling. Now, try to penetrate or break that piece of glue and you will find it to be as solid as can be. Keep in mind that I ALWAYS wait 24 hours after gluing before I trim/sand the tip down. My friends/customers know that in advance (that I will have their shaft for a minimum of 36 hours). I can honestly say that the ONLY tips that have popped off of any cue shaft I have worked on were the White Diamonds. No matter what glue (I tried at least 5 different glues) or ferrule/tip preparation I tried, they always popped-off within 2-5 breaks. Any other tips that I have installed have never came off using the 2-part epoxy, and that's probably been close to 75 tip jobs.

You really should give it a try.

Maniac
 
sfleinen and Maniac,
I know I got lots of responses to use other glues, but I also got a lot of responses saying these tips are more prone to popping off than others are.
Keep in mind, this was only the second attempt with this tip and I've still only done a few installs, so it made sense to give it a second try with the glue I had and assume the problem was in the work.

On the flip side of that, you're right, I should still try changing the other variable (the glue) to find out for sure if I can make it work. It's just that the tip is getting smaller and smaller each time....and I guess I'm just a little frustrated with the whole thing. That's why I was thinking of trying a different tip, and would also use a different glue at that point as well.

I guess I'll give it one more chance though. Since the glues/epoxies you guys are talking about have a longer working time, I could get it lined up better before it dries and hopefully not have to turn it down any smaller :rolleyes:

So.....Elmer's Glue All Max?
Or, Maniac, do you have a specific epoxy to recommend?
 
kavik79 said:
Or, Maniac, do you have a specific epoxy to recommend?
Click to expand...

I usually just get what Lowe's or Home Depot stocks on their shelves on the adhesives aisle. I'ved used both the "sets in 5 minutes" type or the type that takes longer to set. They both seem to adhere the same, but like advertised, the "sets in 5 minutes" type does just that, so now this is the one I prefer. I still let the shaft sit for 24 hours before I'll touch it though.

Don't give up on the tip though. IMO the Samsara is a mighty fine break/jump tip.

Maniac
 
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kavik79 said:
sfleinen and Maniac,
I know I got lots of responses to use other glues, but I also got a lot of responses saying these tips are more prone to popping off than others are.
Keep in mind, this was only the second attempt with this tip and I've still only done a few installs, so it made sense to give it a second try with the glue I had and assume the problem was in the work.

On the flip side of that, you're right, I should still try changing the other variable (the glue) to find out for sure if I can make it work. It's just that the tip is getting smaller and smaller each time....and I guess I'm just a little frustrated with the whole thing. That's why I was thinking of trying a different tip, and would also use a different glue at that point as well.

I guess I'll give it one more chance though. Since the glues/epoxies you guys are talking about have a longer working time, I could get it lined up better before it dries and hopefully not have to turn it down any smaller :rolleyes:

So.....Elmer's Glue All Max?
Or, Maniac, do you have a specific epoxy to recommend?
Click to expand...

Kavik79:

Yup, the "Elmer's Glue-All Max" is the Elmer's polyurethane product I was talking about. IMHO, it's better than Gorilla Glue, because it doesn't harden inside the bottle, and it cures more evenly, too.

Remember, wet both surfaces before applying the glue (I ignore the part of the instructions that tell you to "determine" if either side is porous or not, and only apply the water to the porous side -- I apply water to both sides no matter what). And, remember to keep constant pressure on the tip while the glue is curing -- this glue is a crevice-filler, it follows water, and it also expands as it cures. So it will bleed from (form a bead around) the seam where the tip meets the ferrule. Just shave that off when the glue is fully cured. And when shaving, you'll notice how flexible the shavings are -- you can't break them!

Hope that helps,
-Sean
 
50ca3e9862e4f.preview-620.jpg


Tried the Elmers Glue All Max, prepped as suggested by sfleinen, and it made it through 20+ breaks tonight :grin:
(and one horrible miscue :embarrassed2:)
 
kavik79 said:
50ca3e9862e4f.preview-620.jpg


Tried the Elmers Glue All Max, prepped as suggested by sfleinen, and it made it through 20+ breaks tonight :grin:
(and one horrible miscue :embarrassed2:)
Click to expand...

Just now saw this -- excellent news! I think you'll be really happy with this. One thing I'd recommend, is to gently tip-pik the surface of the Samsara. While it doesn't glaze the same way that a leather tip will, it does become very smooth, and won't hold chalk as well -- leading to miscues if you don't hit the cue ball square. The SVB "pop and drop" break style works great with the Samsara. Again, just a little tip-pik application, tapping gently -- not rubbing, scuffing, or twisting -- and you'll be good to go!

Congrats,
-Sean
 
of all the times for you to post that LOL
last night it popped off again. 100% my fault this time though, it was one hell of a nasty miscue :rolleyes:
it did make it through probably 50-70 breaks this time though, including a few minor miscues

I wanted to be able to play tomorrow night though, so I just bought a WB Hard buffalo tip at the pool hall and put it on today. I'll get another Samsara later on and start fresh with all the things I've learned since the first attempt :thumbup:
 
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:angry: I quit.

I got a new samsara tip, installed it on a brand new cue, Elmers glue all Max, clamped for 24 hours, then it was 3 or 4 days before I had time to turn down and shape the tip...more than enough time to be 100% cured.

Same as before, using the fiber pads between the ferrule and the tip. Got less than 10 breaks out of it, no miscues, lost the tip completely, no where to be found.

The only new variable was the new stick, and this one had more wood showing through the ferrule. Ferrule is 12.8mm wide, visible tenon is 9.3 mm wide.

The tip didn't separate from the pad, the pad separated from the ferrule. There is still glue residue across the entire surface, no noticeable difference between the residue on the wood or the plastic

I'm at a loss. At this point I think I'm giving up on these tips until I either a) get a fully capped ferrule installed or b) admit defeat and pay someone with more experience to do the install for me :(
 
Zerius said:
I always try to clean both surfaces with some isopropyl, or methanol works too but make sure the surfaces are dry before you apply the glue.
Click to expand...

This is key. Cleanliness...no dirt or dust on the surface. I use an alcohol pad and let it evaporate for 10 minutes. My glue of choice is Zap a Gap or Tiger Glue. I'm a good tipper But I did have one come off after a few shots. It can happen. Also maybe the glue expired...that stuff does not stay good forever.
 
Thanks for the reply. I did use iso alcohol to clean all surfaces after scuffing them up
And the glue is definitely still good...i tested it on some wood for another project and after a third of the recommended cure time i couldn't get the pieces to snap apart

The guy at the pool hall said he'd keep an eye out for the tip when he cleaned up that night....hoping he finds it so i can at least inspect it, maybe the bad prep this time was on the fiber pad, maybe it can be corrected....i dunno, I'm just getting frustrated with the whole thing
 
Tip pop offs

I used to have a lot of trouble with keeping Phenolic tips from popping off. Like another poster stated, getting the ferrule PERFECTLY flat was the key for me. I wasn't facing it correctly. I also started scoring a light cross hatch pattern in both the tip and ferrule before applying a thin coat (small drop) of cryno (loctite gel). I then let them sit for at least 48 hours before I give em to the customer to use. It takes much longer for it to cure properly due to the lack of air getting to it, unlike a porous leather tip... Haven't had one pop off since, and that's a good thing cause it's really embarrassing when one does and everyone knows your the tip guy who did it, lol.. :embarrassed2:
 
Maniac, I haven't forgotten about the 2 part epoxy suggestion, but if this tip isn't found, I'm not shelling out for another one right away. (called the pool hall tonight, guy said they got busy last night so it was just a quick clean up at the end of the day, and he should be doing a more thourough clean tonight, so there's still some hope he'll spot it)
After giving up on the first one and before getting this second one, I had a WB Hard on there for a little while with no issues whatsoever, same process, same prep, same materials...for whatever that's worth


Rainman, I'm fairly sure the ferrule was flat. It was a brand new stick, tip was removed carefully and I barely removed any material when I faced it off with a flat file on a (sort of) lathe. Ferrule and back of fiber pad were roughed up with some 60 grit paper on a flat surface, then scored with a razor, hit with the paper again to knock down any high parts around the cuts, then cleaned with alcohol and allowed to dry. Stayed clamped for a day and sat for a few days before I got around to shaping the tip and putting it to use (directions for this glue say 4 hours clamping time and 24 hours curing time....went well beyond that lol)
 
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