Sandbaggers and how do u beat them?

[Scott Lee]

Sorry Ken...but the goal is to play your best, every time you get on the table. Otherwise you're part of the problem, not part of a solution. Bragging about sandbagging just shows that you don't really enjoy pool for what it (or at least can be)...a challenging game that can give a lifetime of enjoyment. For folks like you, it's all about winning...and nothing else.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

And I wonder about those of you that brag about being a SL7.....the goal is to be a SL3-4, maybe SL5.

SL3 Ken

 

[Big Perm]

nah, weeding out sandbagers in leagues will kill nearly half of the participants, so I say let 'em be.

I do have a few guys in a golf league that can bag with the best of 'em. I am the only 0 handicap in the league (9 holes) with a 37.2 scoring average, and the 2 I'm talking about I should give 2-3 strokes to....they like that I give them 5. I don't care. I played one once and shot 34 to his 40 and he griped about me being a 0 instead of a + handicap...laughable. Some people just don't like an even matchup (read: need to have an advantage), and that's fine....no heart, but fine. If they do win, what's that trophy, plaque, or whatever, really mean anyway. I'd rather earn it, and if I can do that over the cheaters on top of it....GREAT!

A zero, you da man.....I'm only a 13, but moving in the right direction....

Again, I'm like you in that I'd rather be on the other end of the handicap....I play buddies straight up that are better than me, in both pool and golf, I like the challenge...

Buddy of mine actually started up a golf league when I lived in Florida....there was a guy in the over 20 handi group that cheated....the first couple of tournies, nobody really reported it, but the guy went like 2nd and 1st in those two groups....word got around, people got fed up, and after 4 or 5 events, quite a few people took their money elsewhere....he lost good paying customers because of it....granted, he did get rid of the guy after 5 or 6 events after finding out, but the damage was done....

People ask what is wrong with pool.....well, when I talk to folks in the APA, this is their gripe....and quite a few just deal with it, but some don't, and that hurts growth and creates a bad mouthpiece for the league...

Regardless, impressed with your handi, good luck on the links.....if you are ever in Dallas, look me up, would be glad to donate some golf and pool dollars to you...

 

[Scott Lee]

tap, tap, tap!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Some people just don't like an even matchup (read: need to have an advantage), and that's fine....no heart, but fine. If they do win, what's that trophy, plaque, or whatever, really mean anyway. I'd rather earn it, and if I can do that over the cheaters on top of it....GREAT!

 

[1on1pooltournys]

Honestly, I dont play leagues. Havent for years, and years....I made the comment to spur conversation.

My point about leagues is dont take it too seriously. All sports (bowling, golf, etc) where there is handicap there is some form of manulation by those who are successful.

I have said it before and I think it is the best subject on league players. My friend here 1on1pooltourneys, said it to me about league players.

HE SAID IT AND HAD NEVER PLAYED LEAGUES...HE IS JUST A YOUNG MAN OF ABOUT 24 OR SO, AND I AM AN OLD FART OF 45. BUT HONESTLY, I WAS IMPRESSED WITH HIS OBSERVATION.

He is by far the best player in town. He could get any SL7 the 8 and rob them. But he said the time he spends in the only pool hall in town he never seens league players practicing, gambling, taking lessons, etc. What he sees the majority of their time is used to manilate the skill levels to achieve the goal. ......... The goal of the league players isnt to become a better player.

Wow interesting observation.

Ken

Sad but true, at least in this town. It is also a scapegoat to blame others for losing. I played athletics my entire life up through high school, and pool was something I loved for a lot of reasons, but a big one was that I had all the glory when I won, and could only blame myself if I lost. Seems like the league teams love to criticize one another. That is not pool to me. The only pool team I enjoyed playing on is getting a partner and going on the road, and that takes 100 times teamwork than any league team. IMO

 

[sixpack]

Sorry, I'm a newbie and a rookie, the reason you call them sandbaggers, is it because they are like sand bags in war and they stop the shots from going where they are designated to go (into your enemy)? Ok, you guys can continue the conversation.

Hi Chin,

Welcome to AZB.

I think the term is related to the old method of handicapping horse races where the handicapper would add bags of sand to each horse to make the race more even. One time Man-o-war won carrying 130 lbs of extra weight. The handicapper's job was to add weight to each horse to make every horse finish the race at the same time.

So basically if someone is sandbagging, they are manipulating the handicap weights to their advantage.

~rc

 

[chin0]

Hi Chin,

Welcome to AZB.

I think the term is related to the old method of handicapping horse races where the handicapper would add bags of sand to each horse to make the race more even. One time Man-o-war won carrying 130 lbs of extra weight. The handicapper's job was to add weight to each horse to make every horse finish the race at the same time.

So basically if someone is sandbagging, they are manipulating the handicap weights to their advantage.

~rc

Cool,
Thanks for the welcome, as well as the answer. That definately cleared things up for me.

Chino

 

[rhncue]

I haven't played in leagues for some years and the rules may have changed. I was a 7 and wasn't apt to go down so when I played anyone who's handicap I thought was to low for their play I would call a safety on every shot that I or he missed. The rules stated that if a safety was marked that inning never counted for either player. In reality what happened was at the end of the night it made no difference who won or lost but neither had any innings. It never hurt my handicap but raised your opponents. People are able to sandbag in the APA so easily because their opponents are careless and don't mark down non performance shots. If enough non performance shots are marked against a player and the league operators do nothing about it then it is time to move to another league.

Dick

 

[ne14tennis]

Don't Get Me Wrong

I believe APA has a place and function.....just not with me.

This subject has been ranted on since I became a member her and long before.

I understand the concept of the 23 rule. I understand you need a mix of low and high players to be successful in APA.

There is just something in my DNA that snaps when I see people being told to string out the game so they don't get raised up. Or Team CPT's telling players "We only need X number of balls so string it out so you get lots of innings"

Or playoffs and regionals where these same players that are worried they will get raised up if they play to their ability are now playing like world beaters and the League Reps/Ops don't raise them up on the spot....as they can.

I have had this argument several times with a bar owner that is a APA stronghold. He has given me numerous examples of APA National teams that have been raised up or even disqualified because of blatant sand bagging.

That's all well and good, but in my area...if you're in with the League Op...you can do almost anything.

The whole APA is just not appealing to me

 

[trustyrusty]

Sometimes it's not at regionals, but at the next table. I went out to see a couple of buddies who were playing APA 8ball last night. Good friend of mine who is a 4 and I were playing 8ball on the 2nd table while waiting for the first match to end so he could play. Identical Diamond barboxes...he put a 3 pack on me before I got to the table (sure he got every breakout he tried to and got good shape when he did - AKA - might have been a bit of luck there). But breaking and running 3 racks of 8ball on a 7ft Diamond isn't a cake walk. As a 4...if I were playing him in league it's over, he has his 3 wins in ZERO innings. When his match came, he moved over to the other table and ended up beating a 3 by a score of 3-1...get this, in 17 innings. The 3 played 1 safety and he played 2. I watched him change his normal patterns and look for the two-way shots. If someone were to ask him about his play (by saying they saw him warming up on another table and playing much better), he tells them (I've heard him say it), "I get NERVOUS when I'm playing in league, and usually can't pocket more than 3 balls in a row". Funny thing is most APAers buy this... When somethings riding on his game (small stuff like race to 5 for $20) he's back to Mr. Rackrunner. I don't even bring it up. It seems his team other than their 6 (who the 4 is very even with - on the practice table) is underrated, and that's just the way it is.

 

[SCCues]

I hate the apa to be honest i consider it to be a recreational league like something to fill a thursday night when your wife is home watching desperate housewives or something. Which is good for some but it is a hard enviroment to learn the game IMO.

The APA is set up to make money and pool is what's being used to attract the customers. I tried the APA when it first started in my area because it was something new and they dangled a trip to Las Vegas in front of everyone. It didn't take me long to figure out who was playing and who was sandbagging to set up a win in the tournament to go to Las Vegas. A lot of people like it for the socializing and a night out, but if want to play pool seriously i'd look elsewhere. They will never stop the sandbagging no matter what kind of handicap system they use and to me that ruins the league. People will always find a way to beat the system.

James

 

[crawfish]

Pick up each ball and wing it at him until he's a bloody mess. When he starts to cry, tell him he's only crying at a "5" level, and you know he cry at an "8" level. Keep winging'em at him until he reaches the level you desire. Best of luck. Hint: It's best to drink a little before the first ball is thrown.

 

[trustyrusty]

Pick up each ball and wing it at him until he's a bloody mess. When he starts to cry, tell him he's only crying at a "5" level, and you know he cry at an "8" level. Keep winging'em at him until he reaches the level you desire. Best of luck. Hint: It's best to drink a little before the first ball is thrown.

10 years ago he'da been in trouble there (played college baseball and had a VERY good arm ). Note that I said HAD...lol. I can still swing a barcue pretty well though.

 

[mongoose-]

Honestly, I dont play leagues. Havent for years, and years....I made the comment to spur conversation.

My point about leagues is dont take it too seriously. All sports (bowling, golf, etc) where there is handicap there is some form of manulation by those who are successful.

I have said it before and I think it is the best subject on league players. My friend here 1on1pooltourneys, said it to me about league players.

HE SAID IT AND HAD NEVER PLAYED LEAGUES...HE IS JUST A YOUNG MAN OF ABOUT 24 OR SO, AND I AM AN OLD FART OF 45. BUT HONESTLY, I WAS IMPRESSED WITH HIS OBSERVATION.

He is by far the best player in town. He could get any SL7 the 8 and rob them. But he said the time he spends in the only pool hall in town he never seens league players practicing, gambling, taking lessons, etc. What he sees the majority of their time is used to manilate the skill levels to achieve the goal. ......... The goal of the league players isnt to become a better player.

Wow interesting observation.

Ken

That is absolutly correct about players not wanting to become better who play the APA in general. I'm not going to get into a long rant here about the APA but just give my 2 cents. When you have a system that breaks up teams of friends whenever people imoprove which in turn requires the team to go recruit granny as a 2 to keep it somewhat together what incentive does anyone have to get better. Simple... they DON'T. To me it's a joke when you got 4's thinking they can actually play the game because they have beat a 7, 8, or a 9 in some computerized handicap system is plain pathetic. My advise to you is get out while you can and spend your money in tournaments, lessons, or matching up with an opponent who likes to gamble. The APA ia a poolplayer destroyer. Let the thursday night entertainment crowd have it.

 

[trustyrusty]

That is absolutly correct about players not wanting to become better who play the APA in general. I'm not going to get into a long rant here about the APA but just give my 2 cents. When you have a system that breaks up teams of friends whenever people imoprove which in turn requires the team to go recruit granny as a 2 to keep it somewhat together what incentive does anyone have to get better. Simple... they DON'T. To me it's a joke when you got 4's thinking they can actually play the game because they have beat a 7, 8, or a 9 in some computerized handicap system is plain pathetic. My advise to you is get out while you can and spend your money in tournaments, lessons, or matching up with an opponent who likes to gamble. The APA ia a poolplayer destroyer. Let the thursday night entertainment crowd have it.

Oh there are more than a few who want to get better and do, they just don't want to get "raised" when they do. Local tourneys are full of APA 5s and 6s who don't play like APA 5s and 6s....lol.

 

[tigerallenyim]

1st post ever.....ok down to business.

I have been doing the APA thing a couple years and I am a SL7 in 8 and a SL8 in 9 ball. Sometimes I feel like everyone is a sandbagger when I am played a close match, I neglect to consider did they just have a good night or did I have a bad night. Also a thing to consider is they may just be a Super 5 for the moment and at any day they will be a SL6. At any rate what I am getting at is the best solution I have ever found for playing a person that sandbags is...to just focus on my own game.

Sometimes people can shoot you intentional dogs just to run innings up, but do you cash in when they err? As I was coming up in handicap I realized that it is far better(easier to sleep also) if you try your best and lose versus getting into a pissing match with an opponent and ultimately end up playing their game. If they are able to sandbag they fundamentally have to be losing or giving an opportunity to be beaten so focus on strengthening your game to be ready to seize the moment. Cheers

yeah, pissing matches don't win anything. I was very PRAISED by my captain for not losing my cool. I lost badly, but my captain said that the player is hard to beat with the way the person plays.

 

[tigerallenyim]

don't. If someone is bagging, and it's obvious (say a true 6 playing as a 4 in 8ball); just make the 8ball outta turn a couple of times. He ends up winning 3-0 or 4-0 (whatever) in very few innings. I know folks will say this won't get him raised, but it will (happened to me). Or, you can let him get to Vegas (where you DO NOT want to try to pull this stuff) and let him get his team DQed...lol

When I played APA it seemed the goal around here was to play at least one rank below your true speed. Not fun at all!!!

Yep, as Mike Frost said, try ur best... and I did and had more fun that way.

 

[crawfish]

That is absolutly correct about players not wanting to become better who play the APA in general. I'm not going to get into a long rant here about the APA but just give my 2 cents. When you have a system that breaks up teams of friends whenever people imoprove which in turn requires the team to go recruit granny as a 2 to keep it somewhat together what incentive does anyone have to get better. Simple... they DON'T. To me it's a joke when you got 4's thinking they can actually play the game because they have beat a 7, 8, or a 9 in some computerized handicap system is plain pathetic. My advise to you is get out while you can and spend your money in tournaments, lessons, or matching up with an opponent who likes to gamble. The APA ia a poolplayer destroyer. Let the thursday night entertainment crowd have it.

My Gosh, my dear man. You are now my bloodbrother. Rep to you. That fu#$in' APA has killed all of the action. That's right, along with the movies and the internet. I said it. "What's your ranking?" Come on.... Ok, I'm a three.

 

[tigerallenyim]

tigerallenyim...There is no need to argue with your opponent (whether they are team captain or not). Why do you think there are scoresheets for both teams? Mark the defensive shot for guys like this, whether they do or not. Make a notation on the back of the scoresheet, to bring it to the attention of the league operator. BTW...intentionally missing, rather than attempting to run out, is called safety play. AGAIN...mark it on the scoresheet, whether they do or not. It's pretty simple...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

hmmm good point... thanks... and no, I don't ever argue with them.... I more of try to be a good sport and tell them that I need to re-think a bit of how I need to win.. And no winning is NOT everything... I just want to be a better player.

 

[tigerallenyim]

Scott,

I used to play APA and this is one of the reasons I quit. If you have a bad league operator as we do, nothing will be done about having scoresheets with safeties vs. without. The APA league Ops (some of them) want to make money. They don't want to have to critique teams that are sand bagging, or have player councils to review teams accused of it. They make the same money by doing nothing.

My advice to the OP is look at the table more closely in the beginning and recognize where the problem area is and take a good measure of his/her ability to get to it. Much better to play safe early in the game and use BIH to attack that problem then wait until you're in "One Ball Hell" and no place to hide the rock.

Hahaha... nice way to put it.

 

[mongoose-]

Oh there are more than a few who want to get better and do, they just don't want to get "raised" when they do. Local tourneys are full of APA 5s and 6s who don't play like APA 5s and 6s....lol.

You are correct as wanting to get better and not "raised". Thus the sandbagger is born. I should have reworded my post I guess. Either way it is still PATHETIC. :angry: