sandbagging ?

[Scott Lee]

XmarathonX...Not all leagues. Sandbagging is impossible in the new GPPA league. Try to sandbag when your opponent is getting 3-5 ball-in-hands each game! It simply won't work. Play a lockup safe...they get ball in hand. The rules encourage offensive play, and mostly negate safety play.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Sandbagging happens in all leagues. My team made it to the MD regionals & we had a really good lesson in sandbagging. We routinely watched some "3's" on certain teams smoke the hell of of 6's & 7's. I'm not talking lucky shots here but seriously out playing them at every level of the game. It happens & always will.

 

[Nullus]

Sandbagging happens in all leagues. My team made it to the MD regionals & we had a really good lesson in sandbagging. We routinely watched some "3's" on certain teams smoke the hell of of 6's & 7's. I'm not talking lucky shots here but seriously out playing them at every level of the game. It happens & always will.

Negative ghost rider. There is no sandbagging in NAPA. Win...you go up. Lose...you go down. You can't win and stay down. APA, however, takes 20 matches or so to catch up to it. Been this way since it's inception. If you knew the exact system used to calculate handicaps, you'd understand. Unfortunately, too many people have gained this knowledge and use it to their cheating advantage.

 

[Celophanewrap]

Well someone shouldn't tell you your 3 plays like a 5. However if they thought they shot well above their average. They should write them up. Doesn't make them jerks. They may only see your 3 play once a session. It's what they should do but no they should accuse anyone of sandbagging. We are all capable of shooting over our skill level at times. May I ask what's the furthest you have ever went in league. The further you go the tougher it is with an honest team.

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Write them up? Like some self-appointed police officer? If you "write them up" isn't that accusing them of sandbagging? Thing is, on paper a higher ranked player should always beat a lower ranked player, the reality is that that's not always what happens. If I "wrote up" someone every time I got beat by a lower ranked player I'd be doing more writing than playing.
I guess I'm a little spoiled here. In the division that we play in I'd be safe in saying that we're all an honest group and most of us have been at this long enough to be able to tell when someone is genuinely on the lemon. They get weeded out and disposed of pretty quickly. Another thing here is that I, for one (as do most of us), trust our LO and the staff. I know and I'm satisfied that they don't have time or interest to dig into one persons stats and fool with their S/L.
That being said, I do know that some players try to manipulate the system. But after some careful thought and observation I've come to the realization that no or very few APA level player(s) is/are good enough to do this effectively. Those that are good enough don't need to and wouldn't want to.
Some people have a little success with it, but it's short lived. Think about it - in APA 8 ball you can only be one of seven things and those seven things are reasonably close together, just how long can you realistically expect to scam the system?
In the end the better player is going to win 9 out of 10 times when it counts. Worrying about the sandbaggers? I guess that;s your job.
...and it took us about 20 years to get there but we played in Las Vegas. We didn't do as well as I would have liked, but we played

 

[jburkm002]

Yes you write them up. Have you ever played in league. You only giving your opinion on what you saw. Now if a few other team captains write up the same player then that player will be reviewed and maybe adjust to their proper skill level. Absolutely nothing wrong with that process. You do understand most ranking systems can be manipulated. So team captains share a responsibility to help clean up the league. There is sandbagging on purpose. There is also a flaw in the system that wait until enough data is collected until a player moves up. Again there is nothing wrong with writing a player up. There is a rule against calling that person a sandbagger. The league can decide what to do with the write up.

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[jburkm002]

Dude it has nothing to do with winning or losing. It's your skill level on paper versus the perception of your shooting skills on that night. Take for example. A sl3 runs 2 racks in 1 inning in a race to 3. Now the 3 and or 4 game that sl3 seemingly has lost the ability to play. Can't make a straight in shot but seems to leave their opponent bad. Seemingly that sl3 is holding back and just getting some extra innings in because now they only have to win one game. They are in control they are just making look bad. Now most score systems take the overall numbers and not game by game. So the system doesn't know that the sl3 ran 2 racks in 1 inning. Just how many innings in total. So as a team captain I may think that player is under rated a write them up. Doesn't mean they will go up. They just might get looked at a little closer

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[jburkm002]

The better player may win more times in a FAIR race. Guess your not catching on. The sandbagger is better than their low ranking. Meaning they need less games or balls then they would need if they were at their proper ranking. Say your a sl6 playing a sl3 who in reality plays just as good as you and should be a sl6. Now you have to spot them 3 games. How do you like your odds then. That's why people hate sandbaggers.

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[Celophanewrap]

There is a rule against calling that person a sandbagger.

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Which rule is that?.


If the sandbagging 3 beats me (and everyone else enough) they will move up. I guess I don't worry about it because I can only control what I do. If I run around worrying about what you and everyone else does my game suffers and that means that you're in my head. If you're in my head you should beat me regardless of the skill level, and if you're in my head I deserve to get beat.
To beat me that means that your 3 has to play better than me and that means that your 3 has to beat me in less than 2 innings. I like my chances. If he does beat me and does so consistently he won't be sandbagging for very long at less than 2 innings per game. The software is automatic, skill levels aren't entered manually. So what would be the point of sending in your sandbagging 3 to play me. As a sandbagger he wants to lose, I'll take it, what do I care

 

[jburkm002]

Haven't played APA in years. Believe it's somewhere under sportsmanship.

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[Celophanewrap]

Haven't played APA in years. Believe it's somewhere under sportsmanship.

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I'd love to see that. If you find it please let me know, I can't seem to find it

 

[jburkm002]

Should fall under verbal abuse and name calling. As far as I know you can write someone up for being under rated but you can not tell that person they are a sandbagger. That would fall under verbal abuse and name calling. Technically they may not be sandbagging. System might not have caught up to them. We had a player that was new to league. He came in as a 4 and lost the first week. E8's or something. Anyways we knew he would end up a 7. Next week he was a 2. We were begging the LO to raise him to a 7. She would not raise him. We were told the system would catch up. Well every week we had to hear he was sandbagging. No he wasn't. Not even a little. They just wouldn't raise him on the spot. It was a mess for weeks until he started going up and finally became a 7 like we wanted to bring him in as. So yes some guys are ranked lower than they should be. Some play the system but not everyone does. So that's an example of why you shouldn't call someone a sandbagger.

 

[Celophanewrap]

Should fall under verbal abuse and name calling. As far as I know you can write someone up for being under rated but you can not tell that person they are a sandbagger. That would fall under verbal abuse and name calling. Technically they may not be sandbagging. System might not have caught up to them. We had a player that was new to league. He came in as a 4 and lost the first week. E8's or something. Anyways we knew he would end up a 7. Next week he was a 2. We were begging the LO to raise him to a 7. She would not raise him. We were told the system would catch up. Well every week we had to hear he was sandbagging. No he wasn't. Not even a little. They just wouldn't raise him on the spot. It was a mess for weeks until he started going up and finally became a 7 like we wanted to bring him in as. So yes some guys are ranked lower than they should be. Some play the system but not everyone does. So that's an example of why you shouldn't call someone a sandbagger.

OK, you're probably right ....*yawn*

 

[RunOut Apps]

The end of sandbagging as we know it?

Scoring apps are the future and will greatly reduce human error allowing for more accurate data. However, there is no substitute for competent League Ops.and player integrity, Any system is only as good as the data you put into it.
When scoring billiards for a 2-7 or 1-10 race chart, EVERY ball must be accounted to obtain an accurate reflection of skill level..

"Innings"??? Cricket's been around for a long time, and we've been using the word 'inning' to describe a person or team's turn at bat since 1738. It comes from the old English word "innung," which means "to have been put in." So, basically, it's just the time that a team or player was "in" or "in play."
There is no accurate way assess skill level in pocket billiards based on proportional player time or innings.


Here is an extreme example, yet clearly illustrates why innings should have never been used for pocket billiards in the first place.
Lets say two "4" level players are racing to 3 games each. B may be suspected of sandbagging,

Player A Breaks dry
Player B Table Runs and gets out and WINS the 1st game.


Player B Beaks and Runs and WINS the 2nd game. Zero Innings after two games.


Player B Breaks and runs down and dogs the 8 to start the 3rd game. Player A then WINS after 4 innings of Player B dogging the 8 Ball

Player A Breaks and Runs 4 balls. Player B misses. Player A WINS after 4 innings.

2-2 after 8 innings of play

Player A Dry Breaks on the hill hill Match. Player B then WINS after 5 more innings with 1 "defensive" shot.


Player B shoots perfect pool over three games till he dogged the 8 and then remains a 4 after playing 13 innings vs a skill level 4??? Player B is not a skill level 4.




We have developed analytics to detect this and much more in live play which will give the LOs even more tools to identify questionable player integrity. Yes, our app can and will reduce sandbagging :thumbup:

Innings Should be kept in Baseball & Scoring Should be kept on mobile devices.:thumbup:

 

[buckshotshoey]

XmarathonX...Not all leagues. Sandbagging is impossible in the new GPPA league. Try to sandbag when your opponent is getting 3-5 ball-in-hands each game! It simply won't work. Play a lockup safe...they get ball in hand. The rules encourage offensive play, and mostly negate safety play.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I guess I would have to say I would not be on that league for long. Safeties are part of the game....as they should be.

Yes you write them up. Have you ever played in league. You only giving your opinion on what you saw. Now if a few other team captains write up the same player then that player will be reviewed and maybe adjust to their proper skill level. Absolutely nothing wrong with that process. You do understand most ranking systems can be manipulated. So team captains share a responsibility to help clean up the league. There is sandbagging on purpose. There is also a flaw in the system that wait until enough data is collected until a player moves up. Again there is nothing wrong with writing a player up. There is a rule against calling that person a sandbagger. The league can decide what to do with the write up.

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That's why some or most of league area have handicap review committees, made up of the best players in your division. If the consensus of the committee is a player is playing below their ability, they get moved up.

Should fall under verbal abuse and name calling. As far as I know you can write someone up for being under rated but you can not tell that person they are a sandbagger. That would fall under verbal abuse and name calling. Technically they may not be sandbagging. System might not have caught up to them. We had a player that was new to league. He came in as a 4 and lost the first week. E8's or something. Anyways we knew he would end up a 7. Next week he was a 2. We were begging the LO to raise him to a 7. She would not raise him. We were told the system would catch up. Well every week we had to hear he was sandbagging. No he wasn't. Not even a little. They just wouldn't raise him on the spot. It was a mess for weeks until he started going up and finally became a 7 like we wanted to bring him in as. So yes some guys are ranked lower than they should be. Some play the system but not everyone does. So that's an example of why you shouldn't call someone a sandbagger.

A new male player starts as a 4. If they lose, they drop to a 3, not a 2. And you are right.... the LO could have started a known good player at a higher level. But as a team captain, it is also your responsibility to make sure your players are rated at their ability. You could have told the LO to start your new player as a 6. You knew how good he was. The LO probably didn't. You could have avoided a lot, if not all, of the complaints.

 

[jburkm002]

Trust me we tried. Always kept an honest team. Always tried to bring players in at their proper rating.

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[Banks]

A new male player starts as a 4. If they lose, they drop to a 3, not a 2. And you are right.... the LO could have started a known good player at a higher level. But as a team captain, it is also your responsibility to make sure your players are rated at their ability. You could have told the LO to start your new player as a 6. You knew how good he was. The LO probably didn't. You could have avoided a lot, if not all, of the complaints.

Depends on how they do in their loss. No reason they couldn't drop to a 2.

I think that the LO's have been trying to move away from manual moving people when they join. They probably figure that after a while, it will sort of balance itself out. I dunno, I just play and try to win.

 

[RunOut Apps]

Bagging

EZ Scoring providing accurate data powered by Runout Apps

 

[buckshotshoey]

Trust me we tried. Always kept an honest team. Always tried to bring players in at their proper rating.

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Definitely a LO failure then. Any complaints fall squarely on them.

 

[buckshotshoey]

Depends on how they do in their loss. No reason they couldn't drop to a 2.

I think that the LO's have been trying to move away from manual moving people when they join. They probably figure that after a while, it will sort of balance itself out. I dunno, I just play and try to win.

A common misconception is(maybe you know this, maybe you don't) apa handicaps are not based on matches. Its is actually based on games you win. It is the top 10 games out of last 20 that count. That's how a person can lose a match and still go up. A player can have two b & r's in a match and still lose the match. Then they wonder why they go up. It happened to me. Then two weeks later, I went back down. That's because one of my best games went to spot 21 and dropped off. As for dropping to a 2, I don't think I have ever seem someone drop 2 spots in one week. Even a new unrated shooter. And untill recently, a male player could never be a 2.

And I'm like you....I play to win. I don't care if they raise me. Once I make a 7, there is nothing they can do to me at that point! Lol

 

[Banks]

A common misconception is(maybe you know this, maybe you don't) apa handicaps are not based on matches. Its is actually based on games you win. It is the top 10 games out of last 20 that count. That's how a person can lose a match and still go up. A player can have two b & r's in a match and still lose the match. Then they wonder why they go up. It happened to me. Then two weeks later, I went back down. That's because one of my best games went to spot 21 and dropped off. As for dropping to a 2, I don't think I have ever seem someone drop 2 spots in one week. Even a new unrated shooter. And untill recently, a male player could never be a 2.

And I'm like you....I play to win. I don't care if they raise me. Once I make a 7, there is nothing they can do to me at that point! Lol

Yep, I'm aware of that stuff. Was just saying that a new player can have a 30 inning loss against a 3 and drop from a 4 to a 2. Male players could be 2's, but I think they don't allow male 1's or 2's in Vegas, iirc. I've seen people go all over the place. One friend was a 7/4 for a while, because he couldn't get his 9b game going. Another was a 5/8 because his 8b game sucked. I've seen a couple of people go up/down 2 spots in a week right at the beginning, but that starting rating(4) is fairly accurate for the average skill of a new player, give or take a rating.

Unless you play 9.. then you still have a couple of ratings to go to squeeze you off the team.

 

[Scott Lee]

buckshotshoey...You might be...since that league will pay out more money to the teams competing at the national tournament than anybody ever has...$1,000,000 cash (not prizes) paid out to 100 teams. First place is $250,000.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I guess I would have to say I would not be on that league for long. Safeties are part of the game....as they should be.