Scam or failed business venture?

[macguy]

http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?page=sports4_oct7_2006

Heres an interesting snippet.

"Trudeau's commitment to pay the players their prize money came in the wake of a concerted effort to put down the IPT which, since its inception last year, has been extremely successful."

What a strange comment, where is this extremely successful effort to put down the IPT?
I hope he isn't trying to blame not paying on comments on the AZ web site. I thought we were just a bunch of meaningless losers he pays no attention to.

 

[X Breaker]

I am sure the answer is very simple...but I just could not figure it out...

Firstly, if Stanley Ho is so interested in running a pool tour, why didn't he start one on his own?

Secondly, pool is actually not a big thing in Hong Kong, which is where Stanley Ho is based. Hong Kong is all about Snooker. With 150 Million spent, why didn't Stanley go into running a snooker tour in Asia instead?

Pool is big in Taiwan, and Japan. It is starting to become popular in China, the Singapore and Indonasia. But it is really not a big sport by any standards...Snooker is a much more popular sport. There are Marco and Ding who are internationally famous in the snooker circle. There are way more snooker halls in Hong Kong than pool halls. There are TV coverage of snooker on Hong Kong TV and they are popular. Pool is considered by many as an easy game for girls and non professionals?

Thirdly, Stanley Ho owns a public company, which has to answer to its shareholders. I may have missed it but I cannot find anything from his company which states that he has purchased or is in the process of purchasing the IPT. May be I have missed an announcement, or may be it has not been announced yet?

I really like the IPT, I have booked my flight to Chicago already, and I really hope that it will become successfully.

Can someone please answer my above questions for me...I just cannot figure them out.

 

[Timberly]

What a strange comment, where is this extremely successful effort to put down the IPT?
I hope he isn't trying to blame not paying on comments on the AZ web site. I thought we were just a bunch of meaning losers he pays no attention to.

I've actually been waiting for this to happen and mentioned it to a friend of mine not too long ago. I just searched for the threads and can't find them. I think Mike took them down because they got pretty heated...

Last yr sometime between Oct & Dec there was a guy posting on here about a new tour... they were going to pay out more money than any of the tours (except the IPT) but closer to IPT payouts than other tours.

Eydie might remember who the guy was because I believe she actually met with them in person. People were skeptical and had questions... these folks were even offering medical benefits IIRC. I believe Eydie started catching them in lies and calling them out and asking straight forward questions.

The next thing you know, this guy that was running the show called everything off and blamed it on the forums. I keep waiting for the IPT to blame the forums for something... they're too pompous to admit that they might've been wrong or made a mistake.

There have been IPT "haters" from day one... there's always been negativity surrounding the IPT on message boards. I think we can all agree on that, right? I don't know about you guys but I don't ever recall a tour card holder saying they weren't going to play in the events because of what people on a forum said. All the tour card holders that were physically able to show, did show up. Even with the steep entry fee's, they were still getting a decent number of people in the qualifiers... all the while, there was negativity about them on the forums.

If they dare to blame anything that has happened or that may happen on anything to do with a forum then we'll all know that they're completely full of sh!t and don't have the balls to stand up and admit that they got in over their heads and made a mistake.

 

[macguy]

I am sure the answer is very simple...but I just could not figure it out...

Firstly, if Stanley Ho is so interested in running a pool tour, why didn't he start one on his own?

Secondly, pool is actually not a big thing in Hong Kong, which is where Stanley Ho is based. Hong Kong is all about Snooker. With 150 Million spent, why didn't Stanley go into running a snooker tour in Asia instead?

Pool is big in Taiwan, and Japan. It is starting to become popular in China, the Singapore and Indonasia. But it is really not a big sport by any standards...Snooker is a much more popular sport. There are Marco and Ding who are internationally famous in the snooker circle. There are way more snooker halls in Hong Kong than pool halls. There are TV coverage of snooker on Hong Kong TV and they are popular. Pool is considered by many as an easy game for girls and non professionals?

Thirdly, Stanley Ho owns a public company, which has to answer to its shareholders. I may have missed it but I cannot find anything from his company which states that he has purchased or is in the process of purchasing the IPT. May be I have missed an announcement, or may be it has not been announced yet?

I really like the IPT, I have booked my flight to Chicago already, and I really hope that it will become successfully.

Can someone please answer my above questions for me...I just cannot figure them out.

I think there could be something to it, since the rumor has been floating for some time now. The Ho guy would have issued a denial you would think. My guess would be at the most, Ho will bail out the tour and KT will go off into the sunset. There is some value to what they have created. It takes some work to get the TV deals he has and there may be some other sponsorship we don't know about, the IPT isn't worthless, the preliminary work that has been done took a lot of effort. There may be a skeleton on which some meat will still hang if done right.

 

[Nostroke]

http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?page=sports4_oct7_2006

Heres an interesting snippet.

"Trudeau's commitment to pay the players their prize money came in the wake of a concerted effort to put down the IPT which, since its inception last year, has been extremely successful."

What a strange comment, where is this extremely successful effort to put down the IPT?
I hope he isn't trying to blame not paying on comments on the AZ web site. I thought we were just a bunch of meaningless losers he pays no attention to.

I interpret that as the IPT has been extremely successful not the 'put downers' Anyway as i noted hardly a journalistic masterpiece. It reads more like an editorial.

 

[macguy]

I interpret that as the IPT has been extremely successful not the 'put downers' Anyway as i noted hardly a journalistic masterpiece. It reads more like an editorial.

Now that I read it again and take a long pause at the Commas, I think you are right.
Regardless though, who is he referring to? If you listen to his speech before the last tournament he goes on for like 10 minutes about it.

 

[Nostroke]

Now that I read it again and take a long pause at the Commas, I think you are right.
Regardless though, who is he referring to? If you listen to his speech before the last tournament he goes on for like 10 minutes about it.

Yeah im pretty sure it was this board he was talking about. Let's face it, you just cant find that many comments positive or negative about the IPT anywhere but on the pool forums and this is the gorilla of Pool Forums so it's a pretty safe bet it's us.

 

[Timberly]

Yeah im pretty sure it was this board he was talking about. Let's face it, you just cant find that many comments positive or negative without the IPT anywhere but on the pool forums and this is the gorilla of Pool Forums so it's a pretty safe bet it's us.

Whatever do you mean?!?!? We're just a bunch of hacks that don't have two nickles to rub together and they don't care what we say. He couldn't possibly have been talking about us. That would be giving us credit....

 

[Nostroke]

Yes that is one of KT's more endearing qualities-his belief that the measure of a man and the worth of his opinion is best told by his bank account. (no matter how he may have attained it apparently) It tells me plenty that he proudly shouts this to anyone who will listen. Ill be nice and leave it at that. Wouldnt want to hurt anyone's feelings.

 

[macguy]

Whatever do you mean?!?!? We're just a bunch of hacks that don't have two nickles to rub together and they don't care what we say. He couldn't possibly have been talking about us. That would be giving us credit....

You never answer a critic, In 1950 Harry Truman picked up his "Washington Post" early to read a review of his daughter Margaret Truman's singing performance. He read a terrible review by critic Paul Hume. He immediately sat down and wrote a letter to the paper where he told Mr. Hume,
"Some day I hope to meet you. When that happens you'll need a new nose, a lot of beefsteak for black eyes, and perhaps a supporter below!"

The only reason we today know that Margaret Truman had a bad singing voice and Paul Hume even existed was because of good old Harry, he made Mr. Hume famous.
KT should pretend we don't exist, why would he even draw attention to a critic, doesn't he know any better?

 

[ribdoner]

Whatever do you mean?!?!? We're just a bunch of hacks that don't have two nickles to rub together and they don't care what we say. He couldn't possibly have been talking about us. That would be giving us credit....

My feelings about KT and the IPT were WARM and FUZZY until:

1) A backer came forward with his experience getting paid. What was most alarming was the way communication was handled by/thru a manager. It is his responsibility, as a manager, to make SURE that if he makes a committment it becomes reality. That was not done.

2)Forcing roomowners to buy/use IPT logo mdse (at the prices the IPT charges) in order to advertise for the IPT is greedy and shortsighted. If I had to guess I'd say the mark up on the cloth is apprx 100%. If anything they should sell the mdse at or below cost in view of what the venues are doing in terms of promoting the IPT. A fair way would have been to pro rate cost based on how many players show up.

3) The "mystery's" and ramifications with regards to RENO non payment are obvious and beyond my elaboration. The biggest mistake any business can make is not communicating in a clear and concise manner if it can't fullfill promises. THE TRUTH IS USUALLY THE BEST DAMAGE CONTROL. At the very least it is the easiest path to follow.

The majority of nay-sayers were not nay-sayers until the IPT put themselves under the microscope by their words and deeds. I hope the IPT makes it and ,at the least , I hope the PLAYERS get paid. If the IPT doesn't make management has no one to blame but themselves.

 

[Nick B]

I really miss the start your own comments.

I really miss the start your own comments. In the beginning whenever a non-pro-IPTer would ask even the most common sense question or fail to drink the kool-aid with great abandon they where told to..."start your own tour with your own money and you can make the rules!". Well I don't see all but a few of them showing and remorse or humility now. Just silence...the sweat sound of all quiet.

Tomorrow if the players get their cheques I'm sure they'll come out shaking their bums in the air...screaming from the highest mountains...I told you it was all good. Well the reality is it is not. All our arm chair quarterbacking is fun yet useless. We don't know what KT's intentions were. Only two things are certain:
1. The man's long documented past
2. They way he treats his outstanding debts/creditors.

This speaks everything about the man's credibility. Scam is a relative thing. Most of us who didn't believe took in the facts as we knew them and the seemingly over reaching, unsustainable payouts and smelt something fishy. Gentlemen like KT are masters of using peoples greed, sorrow or vanity against them. Generally these are most effective against those who can least afford it. The poor, the sick, the uneducated.

Question:
What if what happened to Jay H happened to a lesser know or meeker member of this community?
Answer:
He doesn't get paid.

The facts as I see them:
- Not everyone on this forum would throw it all away to play pool professionally (assuming they had the skill). Most of us just love this game.
- If your not willing to gamble your net worth away on a pool tour, you do have a right to question IPT's conduct.
- KT's reputation was horrible to begin with. Now Deno's isn't much better.
- Those who acted as forum publisher for the IPT even after Reno fiasco should be suitably ashamed.

 

[watchez]

I really miss the start your own comments. In the beginning whenever a non-pro-IPTer would ask even the most common sense question or fail to drink the kool-aid with great abandon they where told to..."start your own tour with your own money and you can make the rules!". Well I don't see all but a few of them showing and remorse or humility now. Just silence...the sweat sound of all quiet.

Tomorrow if the players get their cheques I'm sure they'll come out shaking their bums in the air...screaming from the highest mountains...I told you it was all good. Well the reality is it is not. All our arm chair quarterbacking is fun yet useless. We don't know what KT's intentions were. Only two things are certain:
1. The man's long documented past
2. They way he treats his outstanding debts/creditors.

This speaks everything about the man's credibility. Scam is a relative thing. Most of us who didn't believe took in the facts as we knew them and the seemingly over reaching, unsustainable payouts and smelt something fishy. Gentlemen like KT are masters of using peoples greed, sorrow or vanity against them. Generally these are most effective against those who can least afford it. The poor, the sick, the uneducated.

Question:
What if what happened to Jay H happened to a lesser know or meeker member of this community?
Answer:
He doesn't get paid.

The facts as I see them:
- Not everyone on this forum would throw it all away to play pool professionally (assuming they had the skill). Most of us just love this game.
- If your not willing to gamble your net worth away on a pool tour, you do have a right to question IPT's conduct.
- KT's reputation was horrible to begin with. Now Deno's isn't much better.
- Those who acted as forum publisher for the IPT even after Reno fiasco should be suitably ashamed.

I couldn't agree more. If I was a player I would contact Versus, PartyPoker and who ever else was a supposed sponsor of the IPT.

 

[Gabber]

Guaranteed?

How is that?

Anybody multiply 150 by $100,000.

That's 15 followed by 6 zeros.

Where would it come from.

I remember a guarantee from my youth.

$2 soldier, I guarantee you a good time.

Looks like the pool players and I have something in common, we both got...

Jake

You sure have changed your tune.

I can just hear KT saying to another promoter, "let's do lunch - your jet or mine?"

Jake

Gabber

 

[Roadie]

The people who say start-your-own are certainly entitled to say that. Trudeau is always going to be handicapped by his past no matter what he does.

What he did though is to start-his-own tour. He did it according to his idea, certainly with input from various sources, but indelibly with his stamp on it.

It is perfectly acceptable for a person who is being a critic to be advised to exercise their free market rights and set up a competitive organization. It is through such competition that innovation happens. Good things rarely come from criticism as history shows. Action is generally required to effect change.

It is pretty much agreed by all that the IPT handles it's business very poorly. Jay Helfert should never need to be the squeaky wheel. In fact, he should have been on the IPT board, as if one exists, from Day One. Part of Trudeau's plan should have been to recruit the very best from the talent within the billiard industry. This is not to endorse that he should have paid "sanctioning" money to existing organizations. That point has been well belabored throughout. He should have definitely asked for applications and chosen the brightest the billiard industry and the fan base has to offer. Perhaps he could have even gotten a $1000 application fee....just kidding!

Those who are holding out hope for the IPT to succeed should not be ashamed. At this point there is really no acceptable excuse for the IPT's treatment of the players and the fans. Other organizations have gone through periods of difficulty and managed to survive bad decisions and financial difficulty to become strong and prosperous. Those that have hope of this for the IPT and are brave enough to say so should be proud that they take the positive path. It is the much easier and negative path to kill the infirm rather than help to nurse them back to health.

Anyone can research Kevin Trudeau and come to an easy judgement that he is nothing more than a suave crook. It takes a higher form of respect for humanity to reserve judgement until proof exists of current crimes.

At this point in time the IPT has been a legitimate business venture with a real product (world class pool competition) to sell. Those that claim Trudeau only sells false products will hopefully agree that the world's elite are truly the real-deal when it comes to excellence in our sport. Trudeau brought together the world's elite in a way that no other promoter has done. He dressed them up in a sort of 'made for corporate sponsorship' and proceeded to finance the production of the goods. The goods being the world's best, a fierce competition, and some drama. So, it could be argued that Trudeau is attemtping to go legitimate with this product. Perhaps he is tired of selling products that garner him a bad reputation. He would not be the first person to turn his tainted gains into a legitimate enterprise.

Anyone who listens to the speech by Trudeau at the Reno event will hear him telling the players that if the IPT fails then it won't be from lack of trying. He asks the players to be proactive. He also cites famous ventures that bombed such as the USFL backed by Trump and the XFL, backed by McMahon. In hindsight, some will probably say that he was preparing the players for the situation of not receiving payment. It may very well be that at the time of making the speech that Trudeau was unable to cover the prize fund. We may never know for sure.

The speech was very positive, hopefully Trudeau was being more than just wildly optimistic. Time will tell whether this business venture has indeed failed. It has not been a scam though.

 

[jjinfla]

When will that video be up on the Membership club? That should prove interesting, and if what you said is true then the players should have had an inkling of the IPT being doomed. It looks like Keith was the only one listening and paying attention to Kevin. He is from the old school, a bird in the hand and all that rubbish.

Okay, so we admit it was a failed business venture, now what? Will a Chapter 11 or is it 13 or 7 going to be filed? Will there be a reorganization?

Jake

 

[LAMas]

Is there a market for pool?

The IPT has paid out more money than it has taken in but that doesn't cover player expenses in many cases. Usually in pool tournaments the pool players through entry fees pay for the prizes short of added money. The IPT's added money for their tourneys is mind boggling.

That until Reno was the mindset and hopefully it will continue in Chicago. I have been to Vegas and Reno and the show was top drawer but where were the sweaters? I got a free pass through AZ - how can you make money with that?

The profit to the IPT for merchandise being sold is probably minimal. I hear that most are pleased with the streaming video of the matches for cheap -... make money with that?.

The $2K entry fee for the qualifiers is pale compared to the cost of the show and the numbers of paying entrants is dwindling for the qualifiers - It may end up that only those past performers that get a free entry to the following qualifiers will show....

My thought is that I have been to the BCA tournies at the Riv and there are thousands of participants and sweaters. Then there is the APA, VNEA, APPA and other thousands of players that are into pool. The interest in pool is there but perhaps not a market for pros - most bar table players don't follow the pros.

The better bar table 8 ball players are competing in the IPT and are holding their own but aren't getting to the top yet - some are hidden pros.
There are many more bar table 8 ballers that would like to try but the entry fee is too steep - mini tournies might help here.

Bottom line:
Pool players and sweaters were/are never worth the IPT gamble in the US - perhaps in Asia?

 

[jjinfla]

I couldn't agree more. If I was a player I would contact Versus, PartyPoker and who ever else was a supposed sponsor of the IPT.

Why contact them? All they did was advertize at IPT events. They have no control of the day to day business.

You want to play the blame game then let's play.

I would start with Mike Sigel. Does anyone here not believe that Mike had a pidgeon in Kevin. Most likely charging him exorbitant fees for lessons.
Who does not believe that Mike was not a big part in setting this all up? Didn't Mike convince Kevin to star in the instruction pool video?

Then we can move to the other players. Look at all the top players who jumped aboard with both feet. Charlie Williams, Alan Hopkins, Ursetti have been in the business for a long time and have many sources of information. Yet they thought it was a good deal. How about Allison Fisher and Earl Strickland didn't they do their research before they jumped aboard?

One can say that about all the players. Didn't they do their homework before they jumped aboard?

Can we say that pool players are just followers in general? They are just too dumb to do any thinking on their own?

Yep, I thought the IPT was great. From a fan's standpoint. All I ever said was that it was a great production. Great entertainment. A very expensive production and well produced.

I also said I would like to see their balance sheets, which of course I knew I could never do, and I would like to see their business plan, which is not available.

At Orlando the rumor was that it cost Kevin 4 million dollars to produce the show. That is more money than I can reasonably deal with, but it sure does sound like an awful lot. Perhaps the figures were exaggerated but if you were at Orlando then you know that whatever he spent it was an awful lot.

Now, when there is a business with big expenses, and no money coming in then you have to believe that sooner or later the business will fail. Any rational thinking man will know that. The money pot will just run out. No one in their right mind will keep throwing good money after bad money.

But yes, I was behind the IPT all the way. Only because it was a good production and fun to watch. Did I believe it had a chance in hell to succeed? Hell no. But that was my belief. Everybody else has their own belief and has to make up their own mind. I nevr tried to convince people to join it. All I said was that from my perspective it was a first class production.

Too bad people can't read between the lines.

Jake

 

[jjinfla]

LaMas,

The other day ESPN broadcast the $50,000 challenge of champions. The finals had Johnny Archer and Thorsten Hohman. Archer finally won.

Yesterday at our club someone asked me if I watched it. I said sure. Then he asked, "who was that guy in it?" And he couldn't even pronounce Thorsten's name. He had no idea who the man is.

That is the problem with pool. There just is no name recognition of the pros.

Very few pool players subscribe to the magazines or even get on message boards. AZB has what? Maybe 6,000 people signed up. That is world wide. Not a very significant number. (So why do they ban people. LOL)

A big problem with pool is that no matter what is produced and placed on TV the critics will slam it. They don't like an announcer, they don't like the pocket camera, they don't like the table, they don't like the cloth, they don't like the Sardo rack. Yep everyone hates the Sardo rack but they are so stupid that they don't know they are cutting off their own noses to spite their face. If not for Sardo and Simonis and Cuetec and Mitch and Ewa you wouldn't have any pool on TV at all.

Jake

 

[NYC cue dude]

jake, although in general i do appreciate the thoughfulness that is so readily evident in your posts, i am now a bit surpirsed by your intimation that soemhow the players share some culpability here.

The players showed up to the front door of the ipt as they do when they show up at any other tournament. With such public declarations of wealth/revenues/guaranteed purses etc. the players had no reason to be skeptical. The proof was in the pudding, physically right there before them, at the events. The venues were real, the tables they played on were real, the cameras and all the checks too were real, right from the inception.

I think by turning ones attention to the players, you are at the same time, turning ones attention away from where it should be directed.

If HALF of what kt has said from the very begginning was true, we wouldn't be having these discussions right now.

rg