Scenario and rule ??

garczar

AzB Silver Member
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If after the 14th ball is pocketed the cue-ball is inside the triangle what do you do? CB behind the h'string? Also, what if the break-ball is in the rack? If there's a link to all this that would be cool. Thanks

Bob Jewett

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Here are the WPA World Standardized Rules:

https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#Continuous-Pool

And here is the pertinent text for racking situations:

When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack, the following special rules apply. A ball is considered to interfere with the rack if it is within or overlaps the outline of the rack. The referee will state when asked whether a ball interferes with the rack.

(a) If the fifteenth ball was pocketed on the shot that scored the fourteenth ball, all fifteen balls are re-racked.

(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the head string.

(c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue ball blocks the head spot.

(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.

In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play as the first shot of the new rack.

If the cue ball or object ball is barely outside the marked rack area and it is time to rack, the referee should mark the position of the ball to allow it to be accurately replaced if it is accidentally moved by the referee when racking.

There is also a matrix of possibilities in the rules if the text above is not clear. Some like one better than the other.

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here are the WPA World Standardized Rules:

https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#Continuous-Pool

And here is the pertinent text for racking situations:

When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack, the following special rules apply. A ball is considered to interfere with the rack if it is within or overlaps the outline of the rack. The referee will state when asked whether a ball interferes with the rack.

(a) If the fifteenth ball was pocketed on the shot that scored the fourteenth ball, all fifteen balls are re-racked.

(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the head string.

(c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue ball blocks the head spot.

(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.

In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play as the first shot of the new rack.

If the cue ball or object ball is barely outside the marked rack area and it is time to rack, the referee should mark the position of the ball to allow it to be accurately replaced if it is accidentally moved by the referee when racking.

There is also a matrix of possibilities in the rules if the text above is not clear. Some like one better than the other.
Wow. That's clear as mud. I think i'm more confused now but that's easy to do. Thanks Bob.

JimGinPhx

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I worked at the 2000 U.S. Open 14.1
Situation D was discussed . To legally shoot at the object ball on the head string spot, with cue ball in hand in the kitchen , the cue ball would have to be out of the kitchen when contact is made with the object ball .The head string is not in the kitchen.

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alstl

AzB Silver Member
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Cue ball inside the triangle is a smart move sometimes if you get the final object ball in a funny place. BIH comes in handy.

Bob Jewett

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I worked at the 2000 U.S. Open 14.1
Situation D was discussed . To legally shoot at the object ball on the head string spot, with cue ball in hand in the kitchen , the cue ball would have to be out of the kitchen when contact is made with the object ball .The head string is not in the kitchen.

The current rule is that if a ball is exactly on the headstring it is playable directly if the cue ball is in hand. It is rare that a ball is exactly on the headstring unless it has been spotted.

Your last sentence above seems to contradict the others. If the headstring is not in the kitchen then neither is the head spot. (And as mentioned under the current rules the headstring including the head spot are not part of the kitchen.)

Bob Jewett

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Wow. That's clear as mud. I think i'm more confused now but that's easy to do. Thanks Bob.
I think it may make more sense if you start with a specific situation that you are trying to decide on and work through the clauses, crossing out the ones that don't apply. You may prefer to work from the matrix in the full rules.

JimGinPhx

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The" center" of the head string spot is not in the kitchen . It is on the head string , which is not in the kitchen . What I wrote is correct. With cue ball in hand in the Kitchen, and object ball on the head string spot , the cue ball can't legally contact a ball outside the kitchen unless the "Center " of the cue ball is outside the kitchen when contact is made with the object ball.

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here are the WPA World Standardized Rules:

https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#Continuous-Pool

And here is the pertinent text for racking situations:

When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack, the following special rules apply. A ball is considered to interfere with the rack if it is within or overlaps the outline of the rack. The referee will state when asked whether a ball interferes with the rack.

(a) If the fifteenth ball was pocketed on the shot that scored the fourteenth ball, all fifteen balls are re-racked.

(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the head string.

(c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue ball blocks the head spot.

(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.

In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play as the first shot of the new rack.

If the cue ball or object ball is barely outside the marked rack area and it is time to rack, the referee should mark the position of the ball to allow it to be accurately replaced if it is accidentally moved by the referee when racking.

There is also a matrix of possibilities in the rules if the text above is not clear. Some like one better than the other.

I encountered (c) a while back. Tried to leave the cue ball above and a couple inches to the side of the headspot and landed right on the headspot.

When you play as poorly as I do weird stuff happens.

DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What I wrote is correct. With cue ball in hand in the Kitchen, and object ball on the head string spot , the cue ball can't legally contact a ball outside the kitchen unless the "Center " of the cue ball is outside the kitchen when contact is made with the object ball.

Nothing in the rules supports your contention. If the center of the object ball designates it’s location as ‘outside’ the kitchen, and the placement of the cue ball’s center is legally designated as ‘inside’ the kitchen, then point of contact should be irrelevant.

Bob Jewett

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... the cue ball can't legally contact a ball outside the kitchen unless the "Center " of the cue ball is outside the kitchen when contact is made with the object ball.
I believe this has never been the official rule. Let's try an example:

An object ball is entirely outside the kitchen near the side cushion. There is a space of 1 inch between its edge and the head string. The player has ball in hand and puts the cue ball near the same side cushion. He shoots the object ball straight into the far corner pocket along that side cushion.

By your ruling that shot is a foul because the center of the cue ball was in the kitchen (by 1/8 inch) when it hit the object ball. Again: I don't think that has ever been the rule.

JimGinPhx

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe this has never been the official rule. Let's try an example:

An object ball is entirely outside the kitchen near the side cushion. There is a space of 1 inch between its edge and the head string. The player has ball in hand and puts the cue ball near the same side cushion. He shoots the object ball straight into the far corner pocket along that side cushion.

By your ruling that shot is a foul because the center of the cue ball was in the kitchen (by 1/8 inch) when it hit the object ball. Again: I don't think that has ever been the rule.

Official BCA General Rules of Pocket Billiards
Page 3 Rule# 38 ( Playing from behind the string )
Refers to what I stated , with an exception .
Please refer to that to understand my reasoning.

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JimGinPhx

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nothing in the rules supports your contention. If the center of the object ball designates it’s location as ‘outside’ the kitchen, and the placement of the cue ball’s center is legally designated as ‘inside’ the kitchen, then point of contact should be irrelevant.

BCA General Rules of Pocket Billiards
Page 3- Rule # 38

Bob Jewett

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BCA General Rules of Pocket Billiards
Page 3- Rule # 38

I'm confused. The exception in 38 says that the cue ball does not have to leave the kitchen before contacting a ball that is close to the kitchen. You seem to be saying something very different.

JimGinPhx

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm confused. The exception in 38 says that the cue ball does not have to leave the kitchen before contacting a ball that is close to the kitchen. You seem to be saying something very different.
I'm saying exactly what the BCA rule states.
The first part of rule 38 is very clear.
Then the BCA throws in an Exception which contradicts the first part of the rule.
At the 2000 14.1 U.S. Open , this situation was discussed at length before the tournament began. Rule 38 was used without the Exception.

Bob Jewett

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I'm saying exactly what the BCA rule states.
The first part of rule 38 is very clear.
Then the BCA throws in an Exception which contradicts the first part of the rule.
At the 2000 14.1 U.S. Open , this situation was discussed at length before the tournament began. Rule 38 was used without the Exception.
So by that ruling, which is very wrong, the object ball's edge must be about 1.125 inches or more from the headstring for it to be playable. If that is the way the TD set out the rules, he should never be a pool official again.

Is there any chance you misunderstood what was said?

Exceptions contradict what has been said before. That's the nature of exceptions.

Bob Jewett

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Here is a diagram which may or may not make things clearer.

The 5 ball is exactly on the line. The cue ball is in hand in the kitchen. According to the official rules of 14.1, all of these balls are playable except the 4. According to some variants of the rules for one pocket, but not the official rules, the 5 and 6 are not legal targets but the 7 is -- the entire object ball must be out of the kitchen. According to the strange ruling above, the 7 is not a legal target and the 8 may or may not be a legal target depending on exactly how far its edge is from the cushion and which pocket it is played to.

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JimGinPhx

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So by that ruling, which is very wrong, the object ball's edge must be about 1.125 inches or more from the headstring for it to be playable. If that is the way the TD set out the rules, he should never be a pool official again.

Is there any chance you misunderstood what was said?

Exceptions contradict what has been said before. That's the nature of exceptions.

What was said at the pretournament meeting was if the player has cue ball in hand in the kitchen and an object ball is on the head string spot , to legally shot at that ball , contact would have to be outside the kitchen.
You could shoot at either side of the object ball , at that point the cue ball would either be on or just beyond the head string when contact was made.
This conversation went on for some time until that was clarified .
What about the ruling is wrong ?
It's clearly stated in the BCA rules.

Bob Jewett

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... What about the ruling is wrong ?
It's clearly stated in the BCA rules.
You have to include the exception. You can't just throw out the exception. It is part of the rules.

Do you agree with my comment about the legal/illegal targets in the diagram above?

JimGinPhx

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You have to include the exception. You can't just throw out the exception. It is part of the rules.

Do you agree with my comment about the legal/illegal targets in the diagram above?

Yes , per the BCA rules. The BCA rules can be somewhat ambiguous and , they shouldn't be.
House rules are probably the clearest, everybody plays by the same local rules , whether they're correct or not.
What we've been discussing wouldn't fly in a lot of rooms.
The first part of rule 38 is clear. The Exception just confuses the whole rule IMHO.