Scotch doubles tournament rules question.........

genomachino

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I played in a scotch doubles tournament this weekend and would like to get some opinions after I give mine and explain why I didn't like one of the rules.

It seemed to cause more trouble than anything.

One of our local players here has done a great job of running tournaments in our area and put a rule in that you could have one time out per game for per say coaching, To talk about the shot and what you were going to do with your partner.

The reason behind this I think, as it was explained to me by some of the players, was that it was so the games would go faster. Talking over every shot would take too long?

This seemed to me to cause more trouble than what it was trying to fix.

The music was loud so you couldn't tell what anyone was saying. My partner and myself got confronted about 12 times during the tourney for coaching each other.

The guys we were playing one match with really took a long time to shoot in about 4 balls and then try a safe, we forgot who's turn it was. I asked my partner if it was my shot or his. He replied that he wasn't sure. Then he says to me, I think it is your shot. We are still sitting in our chairs and one of the guys on the other team comes over and says no coaching. I told him that we were trying to decide whos turn it was and he replied something like, Yah right. Basically calling me a liar. I finally told him to get away from me and told him I didn't appreciate being called a liar. He replied by saying I was just pissed because we were down 2-0 in a race to 4. I really blew a rod.

Now he got all of me in his face and I went over to my friend running the tournament to complain about this stupid rule. try to tell him that it really takes the fun out of the game when a rule gives an opponent an opening to be a jerk.

Nothing really got accomplished with that. We went back to the game and shot and ended up losing. Not a big deal. We had a great time except for this ridiculous confrontation.

I played in this tourney to have fun with an old friend. I'm hobbling around on a knee that I had surgery on about 10 days ago and I'm having a knee replacement on the other one in about a month. My friend Greg is 65 years old and has had both of his knees replaced and a hip. We are trying to have a good time and have some fun. I'm considered a master player and my buddy Greg is considered just below a master. Neither one of us really needs to tell the other one what to do. But it would have been fun to talk about the game a little instead of walking around like we both have tape on our mouth.

This rule was put in here to stop players from slow play because of talking too much. But that is what a shot clock is for. One match before ours took 2 hours. They needed to be put on a clock.

Only one master player was allowed on a team which I thought was good. I like this idea because it can be a real learning experience for the poorer player learning the mental part of the game. But if you can't talk the poorer player can't learn too much.

If there was no master player on the team they had to only go to 3 and if there was 2 girls on a team they only had to go to 2. I liked that also. It's too get as many teams as possible and have some fun. FUN is the key.

To me that is part of the fun in a partners tournament. Sharing the game with my partner.

Do they do this in other Scotch tournament?

I won the Masters VNEA Mixed Scotch doubles tournament in Vegas with a gal named tammy Jones in about 1998. She is a really good player and it was really fun talking about what we were doing next. This was the only other scotch tourney I was ever in. How would this rule be enforced. Lose the game? Take them outside and beat them up? Have a jury trial on the spot to decide if it was really coaching or not?

I got it. First time a warning. Then the second time another warning. Third time lose the game? Forth time kick them out of the tournament?

Doesn't this sound like fun.

Why have a rule that really can't be enforced? And create arguments.

Anyone want to share their thoughts?
 
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I would expect that the no coaching rule would apply only when it was your shot. Talking quietly when it is the other teams turn should not be a violation of the no coaching rule.

I am in favor of "no coaching". Figuring out who shots next is not coaching. A good way to keep straight who shoots next is to use only one cue. Pass the cue after every shot and you will know who shoots next.
 
I have only played in scotch doubles where there were no issues with coaching, but they were in charity tournaments.

I have seen some tournaments that are doubles that don't allow coaching. Which I think is silly. Any type of doubles is really a fun thing, it's to allow a pair of friends (ideally) a way to play together.

Plus talking away from the table is pretty much always allowed even if there is no coaching on the shot at the table. For example you can say "if he misses, try to play a safe behind the 4" or someting while sitting waiting your turn.
 
If a referee a tournament director was available, I would ask to go get the ref/td. If a bad call is bad, then TD takes the responsibility. For me, in tournaments, its just too easy to let the other player get under your skin.
 
Timeouts and coaching

Every Scotch Double tourney I have played in was one timeout and no coaching. In fact once, the balls stop rolling for the other team, it is time to shut up.

There are silent ways to do it. I have seen upper players line up the next ball with their cue just to show the next shot without saying a word.

Any pro scotch doubles tourney I have seen they talk throughout the match, but you are talking pros who make quick decisions. I really don't see a problem with coaching, and I like the idea of allowing coaching but use a shot clock.
 
scotch

I developed and have help run a scotch doubles her in STL for a few years on a monthly basis. Believe me the one coach rule is necessary as it is difficult to get big tournaments done in one day as it is. Scotch takes alot longer than singles already. We have only had very few problems with the coaching accusation thing and usually by well known troubled players. Good players all cheat the coaching system anyways by lining up future shots prior to hitting there shot.

Trying to remember whose turn it is can be challenging as you sit for a while. Most teams you can just ask if they remember if you don't and move on from there. usually not a big deal.
 
For what it's worth, I play in a regular local scotch doubles tourney, and there's NO coaching. To be honest, I think the players are happier with that rule, because you avoid conflicts within the team.

And yes it's BS for someone to start making accusations about any interaction between the two players. I guess there will always be a-holes. I've never, ever seen a case where someone complained about players talking, but it's an informal tournament and most everyone knows each other.
 
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Coaching

BRussell said:
For what it's worth, I play in a regular local scotch doubles tourney, and there's NO coaching. To be honest, I think the players are happier with that rule, because you avoid conflicts within the team.

And yes it's BS for someone to start making accusations about any interaction between the two players. I guess there will always be a-holes. I've never, ever seen a case where someone complained about players talking, but it's an informal tournament and most everyone knows each other.
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I suppose it depends on your definition of coaching. If it means briefly discussing options with your partner, then I'm all for it. They do it in the Mosconi Cup.

IMO a little "two heads are better than one" coaching is exactly what TEAM play is all about!
 
I like the timeout rules. I play scotch doubles with my friend and he teams up with his GF. They get into a discussion on almost every shot. So I set a two timeout per game rule so they could only talk about the shot a couple times per game.

Trying to determine who is up at the table isn't a timeout. You aren't discussing strategy. Your opponent took that rule to the extreme. Unfortunate IMO
 
He used the excuse....

TheNewSharkster said:
I like the timeout rules. I play scotch doubles with my friend and he teams up with his GF. They get into a discussion on almost every shot. So I set a two timeout per game rule so they could only talk about the shot a couple times per game.

Trying to determine who is up at the table isn't a timeout. You aren't discussing strategy. Your opponent took that rule to the extreme. Unfortunate IMO
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How do we know what your talking about?

Loud music.

Plus what I saw around the bar was most of the teams bending the rules.

Lining up the next shot so the opponent knows what you want, saying safe to the player on the way up. Where do you draw the line what is coaching and what is not. ?
There is no line..........One person can say this is and one could say not.

Just like holding in the NFL. One coach will call it and the other will not.

Here all they say is don't do it.

This seemed to make players feel and act like they were cheating.

And gives someone an excellent opportunity to bother you mentally. Shouldn't be a part of the game especially when they don't enforce the rule with any penalty anyway.

it was just a mess. Not fun.
 
Shoot half the fun in playing doubles is the back and forth between team mates.

Since when is talking, even about the game, during your opponents half inning considered a violation of the "no coaching rule", that doesn't make sense.

Shot clock solves the problem.

There is always someone who will nit pick the rules to death.
 
Gene, if it wasn't fun then don't go back. I personally wouldn't go back if that would've happened to me. I don't have time for stuff like that. Some people just like to start a bunch of drama and that is sad.
 
I was on a 2 man summer league with a different format. We each played 4 games of singles then 2 games of doubles and 2 games of scotch doubles every league nite. It was fun and worked out great. We did not have any no coaching rules and the games still went pretty quick. For the most part I handed off the strategy to my my team mate for scotch doubles, we are pretty equal, I let him decide which would be the next shot and where he wanted the cue ball. I think it worked out great, we led from wire to wire, we were the only team with 2 BCA ranked B players, every other team had at least one BCA A or AA. None of the games we played would drag on for long periods.The only way this probably would not work out well are for those whose egos are too big.
 
This is the rule for our local VNEA Scotch division.

You are allowed one Time Out Per Game.

Discussing the table, shots etc, with your partner while sitting or away from the table when it is not your turn is perfectly acceptable.

We are usually a fun group so don't worry about the Time Out, Coaching rule for the most part.

The most that would usually happen is that one player would tell their partner what ball to play and where to leave and walk away from the table. No long disruption.

Until one team decided to abuse the given leeway and take approx ten minutes to discuss every possible option that they had. So, we had to take away our little rule when anyone played them, unless you wanted to still be playing well after 12 am.

One night, our opponents were discussing many of their shots. we let them slide.

I was on the 8 and my partner was standing over it. I asked him a simple question, one that I couldn't see from where I was standing.

"Is the 8 frozen on the rail"?

They called Coaching on us. I just said, "WTF".

One other time during end of the year Scotch Tourney, I asked our opponents for a time out so I could go to the washroom. She said, "Ok, you got 30 seconds".

Half time and they just put on their coats and started to leave. I asked them, "Smoke Break"? They said Yes. I said, "Ok, you got 30 seconds".
 
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I used to play a lot of scotch doubles and there was no coaching allowed (we were gambling). If it was the other teams turn you could talk about what ever you wanted, but once they missed, and it was your turn, no advice nor any kind instruction was given. Actually we did quite well as he played his game, and I played mine.

I find that often the person shooting the shot is not really comfortable shooting the shot that his partner wants him to shoot. I actually love scotch doubles, it's a lot of fun, especially if there is a small wager on the game.
 
I am in favor of the no coaching rule in tournaments, strictly for the speed of play. More often than not the coaching only distracts their partner. My wife and I have played a few mixed scotch doubles events and I think most of the women were thankful when there was a no coaching rule.;)
 
An idea... Shot clock one time say 90 sec if no discussion, 60 sec if there is any... Coach away, have fun- & all fair, no?




* wish I had started this crap earlier *
 
genomachino said:
How do we know what your talking about?

Loud music.

Plus what I saw around the bar was most of the teams bending the rules.

Lining up the next shot so the opponent knows what you want, saying safe to the player on the way up. Where do you draw the line what is coaching and what is not. ?
There is no line..........One person can say this is and one could say not.

Just like holding in the NFL. One coach will call it and the other will not.

Here all they say is don't do it.

This seemed to make players feel and act like they were cheating.

And gives someone an excellent opportunity to bother you mentally. Shouldn't be a part of the game especially when they don't enforce the rule with any penalty anyway.

it was just a mess. Not fun.
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If you are talking and trying to figure out who is up just tell the other team. That isn't a timeout. Discussing strategy would constitute a timeout.
 
I've played in many Scotch Doubles tournaments with every imaginable format. Personally, I like the best where you can freely talk, as long as there is reasonable time limit set at the start and that no penalty for time infraction until there is a warning.

It's simply more fun that way.

Freddie <~~~ here for a fun time, not a long time
 
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