Screw on or Sleeve type Ferrule .... ???

[WilleeCue]

I would like to know what other cuemakers think about screw on ferrules verses the sleeve type. Once the epoxy sets is there any meaningful difference in "feel", "hit", or strength?

What about the ferrule tenon size?
Does that make any real difference or does the tenon and ferrule act as one solid part once the eopxy has set.

 

[merylane]

willie ill go out on a limb here and say they are just the same.
you know just like spliced and floating points.

 

[bandido]

Not at all similar to the A-joint/splice, Merylane. There is Force applied-to-size ratio and the ferrule end recieves higher forces from the CB/tip collision than the butt end joints of the cue. It's smaller size and proximity to the applied force (cb/tip collision) is also its disadvantage compared to the a-joint area aside from its being full-out dissimilar material bonding which isn't so with the A-joint.

Here's an analogy for you. Get a 6 ft 2x2 and 4x4 lumber then use them as a bridge to cross a 5 ft gap. The only way that the 2x2 can support your adult weight is if it was constructed with cantilevered supports on both ends. Now the additional supports used to make the 2x2 be able to address the applied force is like the angled faces of the threads in the shaft/ferrule jointing faces.

Willee, some may say that threading the ferrule is an overkill as unthreaded ferrules have always been used since it's first used in a cue stick. But mechanical design should always address load requirements. IMO the playing style at present (more off-center hits and harder breaks) and the use of harder tips are reason enough to improve on the mechanical design approach to the ferrule area.
Edwin Reyes

 

[Jon]

Threaded on all the way. Sleeved ferrules crack too easy IMO. Yes, tennon size makes a difference (for sleeved OR threaded.) And yes, the epoxy you use will make a slight difference in how it hits (i've heard of some that use a different mixture to make it softer and a little more flexible, and some that use a different mixture to make it harder, so on and so forth.) It should really be personal preference. "A thousand stars in the sky."

Thanks,

Jon

 

[blud]

ferrules

Ok, for my opinion.

Threaded ferrules are good, but they leave the tenon in a bit of a bind, because when making it up tight,[not to tight], it leaves the tenon with a twist, and not in a natural state. Straight shanked is better provided you make it fit perfect. The hit is close to the same, but with a little harder hit with threads. i just don't like leaving things in a compounded bind, so to speak.

blud

 

[Jon]

Ok, for my opinion.

Threaded ferrules are good, but they leave the tenon in a bit of a bind, because when making it up tight,[not to tight], it leaves the tenon with a twist, and not in a natural state. Straight shanked is better provided you make it fit perfect. The hit is close to the same, but with a little harder hit with threads. i just don't like leaving things in a compounded bind, so to speak.

blud

Good point Blud.

I think one of the best ways to put on a ferrule, is to only thread (grind the threads) the top half of the tenon, and leave the rest unthreaded, with a tight fit. Kind of a best of both worlds. I didn't mention this in the first post, because i felt it was an unnecessary detail. But it fit's here now . I have another way i am working on, that is REALLY THE BEST of both worlds, but it will take time to fabricate the tooling required and more time to test it... I just might let the rest of the world know if it works, and if it doesn't... it goes to the grave with me .

Thanks,

Jon

 

[JoeyInCali]

I like mine threaded. Most of the ferrules I see fail are the press-fitted kind.
How is the glue or epoxy going to hold the press-fitted kind unless you make it a little loose so you get some epoxy there?
I've seen THREADED ferrules press-fitted on unthreaded tenons. The makers hoped the threads on the ferrules "bites" on the unthreaded tenon and hope glue/epoxy holds it.
Some argue threaded tenons are weaker. But, you don't have to thread the tenon all the way down to the shoulder. In fact you can leave the bottom a little oversized ( ream some of the threads on the bottom of the ferrule).
I can only speak for Ivor-X ferrules but it hits sporty. It is capped and threaded.

 

[bandido]

Hey Jon,
How about this tip end design? The length of the threaded portion is kept minimal to proximate the weight of the maple that's drilled and threaded out. The dashed lines represent glue channels that travel down to the end of the threads. What's the ferrule for anyway? Ease of tip replacement and added shock absorbtion strength on the tip end of the shaft, right?
Edwin Reyes

 

[Canadian cue]

New tip design

Bandido,
What is preventing the end from splitting? When the tip is struck won't some of the pressure be directed outward from the threaded pin.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Ed, one aftermarket laminated shaft maker has a vesion of that ferrule.
The ferrule itself has the tenon. The shaft is drilled and tapped.
Those shafts are splitting in the bottom of the ferrule area.

 

[bandido]

I guess the same forces that keep the conventional ferrule from shearing off at the base of the tenon. The walls on this are thicker than Pred's and it also has more mass than a 5/16" major diameter/1/4" minor diameter conventional threaded tenon.

Let me smack it on the workbench some more! LOL (kidding )
Edwin Reyes

 

[bandido]

Ed, one aftermarket laminated shaft maker has a vesion of that ferrule.
The ferrule itself has the tenon. The shaft is drilled and tapped.
Those shafts are splitting in the bottom of the ferrule area.

Hmmm, what's the height of their protruding part? Maybe they have too much weight in the front end. Did you notice that the part that's sticking out of the shaft is only 2mm thick and the threaded part itself is only 12.7mm(1/2") deep with twin glue relief channels.

Maybe if I added a 1mm x 9mm diameter rescess cavity to recieve the shaft.....

Edwin Reyes<think, think, think,..........

 

[JoeyInCali]

Hmmm, what's the height of their protruding part? Maybe they have too much weight in the front end. Did you notice that the part that's sticking out of the shaft is only 2mm thick and the threaded part itself is only 12.7mm(1/2") deep with twin glue relief channels.

Maybe if I added a 1mm x 9mm diameter rescess cavity to recieve the shaft.....

Edwin Reyes<think, think, think,..........

I'll PM you for the brand.
Maybe YOU can x-ray it.
Actually, your ole buddy in the desert knows.

They're using a really cheap, very porous and soft ferrule but the shaft itself is splitting. Not the ferrule.

 

[bandido]

Here, check this out and tell me what you think.

 

[WilleeCue]

Ok, for my opinion.
Threaded ferrules are good, but they leave the tenon in a bit of a bind, because when making it up tight,[not to tight], it leaves the tenon with a twist, and not in a natural state. Straight shanked is better provided you make it fit perfect. The hit is close to the same, but with a little harder hit with threads. i just don't like leaving things in a compounded bind, so to speak.
blud

Good point, Blud.
I never gave that much thought.


Edwin, nice design work.
From what I understand, Bob Jewett prefers no ferrule on his cue.
Glues the tip right onto the wood.
Hey ... what is with the new avatair?

Jon, get to work.
I am curious to see what you come up with.

.

 

[Jon]

Good point, Blud.
I never gave that much thought.


Edwin, nice design work.
From what I understand, Bob Jewett prefers no ferrule on his cue.
Glues the tip right onto the wood.
Hey ... what is with the new avatair?

Jon, get to work.
I am curious to see what you come up with.

.

Willee,

If it works, i might describe it, but i won't be showing it lol. To my knowledge, it has never been done before, and i can't see why it hasn't, to be it's right in front of my face, screaming... "DO IT!"

Thanks,

Jon

 

[bandido]

Edwin, nice design work.
From what I understand, Bob Jewett prefers no ferrule on his cue.
Glues the tip right onto the wood.
Hey ... what is with the new avatair?

Thank you Willee. I was researching too on the first use of the ferrule and its development. Somehow I don't find any reference to its inception in Capt. Mingaud's story on the development of the tip in the early 1700s. I try to recall from my childhood how ferrules were and I still envision the current ferrules that we have. The only attempt on improving it was what was done by Predator which I deduce is present because of tradition. Meaning, people are just used to seeing that little white thing at the front end of the cue because I really doubt that that little piece of plastic that they stuck there is considerably lighter than the wood that it displaced. It may even be the weak link in their low-end mass technology as it causes the tenon to shear off in that area and, due to it being thin walled, cracks easily. They probably could have been better off with a ferrule similar to my earlier diagram if shock absorption to minimize damage to the wood in that area is a concern.

I will keep working on developing the idea for this. As of this moment, I have a couple more structural design improvements that I've thought of. My inquisitive nature has also been enhanced by having Efren shoot with my cue now. He is a research & developers dream, a high-level competitor that's very picky with equipment performance and can explain better in a language that I can understand. Hmm, I think I'll call my Patent Office representative in the morning.

Oh, that avatar is a transition from my caricature to my logo.

Edwin Reyes<wondering where Joey is when I need him. Needs some ivor-x rods.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Ed, I'll be sending some rods.

 

[Jon]

Ed, I'll be sending some rods.

Gee... i don't need any or anything...

Thanks for asking...

This is the thanks i get for going with Ivor-x exclusively...



Thanks,

Jon

 

[Jon]

I will keep working on developing the idea for this. As of this moment, I have a couple more structural design improvements that I've thought of. My inquisitive nature has also been enhanced by having Efren shoot with my cue now. He is a research & developers dream, a high-level competitor that's very picky with equipment performance and can explain better in a language that I can understand. Hmm, I think I'll call my Patent Office representative in the morning.

Oh, that avatar is a transition from my caricature to my logo.

Edwin Reyes<wondering where Joey is when I need him. Needs some ivor-x rods.

Hey Edwin,

If you are concerned about the structural integrity of that style ferrule, why not try this one. All you would have to do is make a boring bar small enough to do the blind hole thingie... I came up with this one a long time ago, but never tried it...

Thanks,

Jon