Searching For a Cue Maker To Tackle a Custom Kielwood Cue Shaft

[x Wild Bill x]

What seems so crazy is he only builds radial joints. I inquired if he would do that or build me a new shaft with a 3/8x10 or 11 pin. Martin forewarned me that he is steadfast in his approach and likely would not be interested. Martin is right.

I could send the cue to my favorite cue maker but I’d be insulting him since he makes KW shafts. I approached him about building me a KW shaft; he was straightforward explaining he couldn’t promise the shaft weight would be right.

I attempted to get the attention of cue makers in the sub forum and hoping someone would step up and post they can
build my KW shaft. None have shown up so far and it’s probably because they’re either too busy or just can’t pull it off.

JoeyInCali was the only one that posted; he confirmed if you start use a heavier shaft dowel, the torrified weight will be
what I want. So the question becomes if anyone other than Richard Hsu had the required wood. Maybe that is why his
KW shafts take as long to build as some cues and he can charge hundreds more than others. It really should be easier.

If no one comes forth, I’ll order a Schmelke shaft for 1/2 the price. My friend has two KW shafts he ordered as 30” shafts (piloted & 3/8x10 flat faced) with 1” Juma ferrules. Both are over 4 ozs. so I’m confident a 29 1/2” would work.

I tried with his 3/8x10 KW shaft on my Prewitt and Jerry R. Cues (3 cues) and the .840 collar size of the shafts aligned
seamlessly. The hit was pretty similar to my Barnhart KW shaft, is more affordable, looks great & is built within weeks.

It just seems that based on what I’ve researched & cue maker comments, it shouldn’t be so challenging to get a slightly
heavier KW shaft built. I’ve been trying & been unsuccessful for several months. It seems very odd but Obladi Oblada.

Did you call or text Prather? Just curious because this seems like something right up his alley.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Did you call or text Prather? Just curious because this seems like something right up his alley.

I did and Jeff has been busy and in and out of his shop. He’ll call me over the weekend or Monday.
Nonetheless, I left details about what I want made and the difficulty I’ve had finding a cue maker to
tackle this KW shaft because of the weight requirement. Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll let you know.

 

[Coos Cues]

Thank you for taking the time to explain how you approached this requirement.
I’m somewhat naive because I’m thinking you just pick & use a heavier dowel.

You could also contact a supplier of roasted maple dowels, like Atlas Supplies,
and request them to verify the weight of the heaviest dowels they can furnish.

It seems to me with the right wood selection, there shouldn’t be any need to
manually adjust the shaft weight by adding an insert other than as a receiver.

Richard Hsu’s latest 2.0 version flat face shaft uses a phenolic insert for a more
secure connection with the butt & to protect the threads. It must add some weight.

Thanks for posting on my thread offering ideas & suggestions on what can be done.

Another big factor is the taper. Leaving more wood toward the joint after the main taper makes more of a difference than one might think in weight.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Another big factor is the taper. Leaving more wood toward the joint after the main taper makes more of a difference than one might think in weight.

Thanks…….here’s what I know……I have a 29.5” roasted maple shaft (aka Kielwood) made by Mr. Barnhart. Martin at Superior Cues had 4 shafts for sale. All of the shafts were the same length, 1/2” Juma ferrules, flat faced radial joints, 12.85mm with a great pro taper. Cory built a KW shaft almost 4 ozs. His 4 shafts were less than 6 grams shy of 4 ozs.

All 4 shafts weighed 3.8 to 3.86 ozs. Martin still had one last shaft available as of yesterday. 3.8 ozs is my min.weight &
4.25 ozs. is my max. weight. Cory is already making shafts that qualify but he only makes it in a radial version. Except
for my Scruggs cue that has a radial pin, my other cues are different big pins. Certainly if Cory can make a shaft that
fulfills my requirements, other skilled cue makers should be able to do the same but it appears they can’t or won’t do it.

So I merely figured if Cory can build a shaft that’s almost 4 ozs., it should be easy to get one made. But that hasn’t been
my experience so far and I’ve been trying for a couple of months. Cory came the closest and I didn’t order it. I just bought what he already had made. I betcha he could build the shaft I want made but he only makes radial. If Cory can build a heavier KW shaft smaller than 13mm with pro taper sans any brass receiver (flat faced shaft), how come other cue makers are reluctant. It makes no sense to me but then again, I’m only ordering rather than building it.

 

[axejunkie]

Thanks…….here’s what I know……I have a 29.5” roasted maple shaft (aka Kielwood) made by Mr. Barnhart. Martin at Superior Cues had 4 shafts for sale. All of the shafts were the same length, 1/2” Juma ferrules, flat faced radial joints, 12.85mm with a great pro taper. Cory built a KW shaft almost 4 ozs. His 4 shafts were less than 6 grams shy of 4 ozs.

All 4 shafts weighed 3.8 to 3.86 ozs. Martin still had one last shaft available as of yesterday. 3.8 ozs is my min.weight &
4.25 ozs. is my max. weight. Cory is already making shafts that qualify but he only makes it in a radial version. Except
for my Scruggs cue that has a radial pin, my other cues are different big pins. Certainly if Cory can make a shaft that
fulfills my requirements, other skilled cue makers should be able to do the same but it appears they can’t or won’t do it.

So I merely figured if Cory can build a shaft that’s almost 4 ozs., it should be easy to get one made. But that hasn’t been
my experience so far and I’ve been trying for a couple of months. Cory came the closest and I didn’t order it. I just bought what he already had made. I betcha he could build the shaft I want made but he only makes radial. If Cory can build a heavier KW shaft smaller than 13mm with pro taper sans any brass receiver (flat faced shaft), how come other cue makers are reluctant. It makes no sense to me but then again, I’m only ordering rather than building it.

By pro taper do you mean a long section with little taper growth? I only ask as Cory's maple shafts have one of the stiffest tapers I've handled. But I have not held one of his kielwood shafts.

 

[Bavafongoul]

By pro taper do you mean a long section with little taper growth? I only ask as Cory's maple shafts have one of the stiffest tapers I've handled. But I have not held one of his kielwood shafts.

A pro taper is usually a slow and gradual increase that extends at least 12” long after the ferrule and often a bit longer in the range of 14-15”. Cory’s shaft is 29.5” and as mentioned, at 3.81 ozs, it qualifies since that’s the lightest shaft I’ll play with.

None of my cues’ maple shafts weight less than 3.8 ozs and the majority are 4 ozs. I know what works for me and it shouldn’t be this hard to find a cue maker to build a KW shaft with my specs w/o artificially adding weight afterward. Heck, Cory is already coming so close and he likely wasn’t even trying to build a 4 oz. shaft. Why is this such a daunting KW shaft build?

 

[boogieman]

Why is this such a daunting KW shaft build?

Because finding a dowel of the correct weight is like finding hen's teeth or a needle in a haystack. Unless a maker has one hell of a stock of blanks, it's likely they won't have anything heavy enough. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about this.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that most small to midsize makers don't have hundreds of shaft blanks lying around at any point. That's very expensive inventory to keep around, and with kielwood it's less important to keep stock curing/aging etc. It's basically ready from the moment they order it. It's possible but not likely. Your best bet would be to find a supplier willing to weight blanks with the promise of you paying extra for the extra work of weighing a hundred blanks to find one that fits your needs. Purchase it then send it to a trusted cue maker.

This isn't rocket science. It's probably not worth the effort for a cuemaker to buy hundreds of blanks just to make you a special shaft. I understand it's frustrating but it's reality. I'd guess most cuemakers would love to make a customer happy by giving them exactly what they wanted, but again, needle in a haystack. It's not that they won't, it's that it's highly unlikely they will find a blank to match your specs.

I honestly think your best bet is to do the footwork and try to purchase a blank from a supplier if they are even willing to do the legwork of weighing blanks. Unfortunately, it's a tough ask that you are asking. At least if you had a blank in hand the cuemaker has the special material to work with, without spending $5-10K searching through the haystack.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Because finding a dowel of the correct weight is like finding hen's teeth or a needle in a haystack. Unless a maker has one hell of a stock of blanks, it's likely they won't have anything heavy enough. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about this.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that most small to midsize makers don't have hundreds of shaft blanks lying around at any point. That's very expensive inventory to keep around, and with kielwood it's less important to keep stock curing/aging etc. It's basically ready from the moment they order it. It's possible but not likely. Your best bet would be to find a supplier willing to weight blanks with the promise of you paying extra for the extra work of weighing a hundred blanks to find one that fits your needs. Purchase it then send it to a trusted cue maker.

This isn't rocket science. It's probably not worth the effort for a cuemaker to buy hundreds of blanks just to make you a special shaft. I understand it's frustrating but it's reality. I'd guess most cuemakers would love to make a customer happy by giving them exactly what they wanted, but again, needle in a haystack. It's not that they won't, it's that it's highly unlikely they will find a blank to match your specs.

I honestly think your best bet is to do the footwork and try to purchase a blank from a supplier if they are even willing to do the legwork of weighing blanks. Unfortunately, it's a tough ask that you are asking. At least if you had a blank in hand the cuemaker has the special material to work with, without spending $5-10K searching through the haystack.

He said he already had a quote, but it was too expensive (or at least higher than 'other' makers charge). Maybe searching for a unicorn costs money...

Personally, I wouldn't change a tip for this guy for under $500.

 

[boogieman]

He said he already had a quote, but it was too expensive (or at least higher than 'other' makers charge). Maybe searching for a unicorn costs money...

Personally, I wouldn't change a tip for this guy for under $500.

I bet he's a great guy, seems to be on the forum, but also seems like "one of those customers."

For every picky customer, there's a dozen regular ones waiting in the queue. That's why I suggested doing the legwork. It seems like it would be simple, but it's a tough ask.

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

A pro taper is usually a slow and gradual increase that extends at least 12” long after the ferrule and often a bit longer in the range of 14-15”. Cory’s shaft is 29.5” and as mentioned, at 3.81 ozs, it qualifies since that’s the lightest shaft I’ll play with.

None of my cues’ maple shafts weight less than 3.8 ozs and the majority are 4 ozs. I know what works for me and it shouldn’t be this hard to find a cue maker to build a KW shaft with my specs w/o artificially adding weight afterward. Heck, Cory is already coming so close and he likely wasn’t even trying to build a 4 oz. shaft. Why is this such a daunting KW shaft build?

Torrified/roasted/baked/cooked maple wood is put through this process to squeeze the moisture from it and collapse the interior cells so moisture has a much harder time getting back into or out of the wood. When you remove the weight from wood this way it is naturally going to make it lighter in weight.
When I get natural maple shaft dowels in for processing the very first thing I do is weigh them. Anything over 10oz is generally going to end up at 3.7 to 3.9 and I have what I would consider a little taller taper than most. Flat faced joint, no inserts. Care to guess how many 10oz or heavier dowels come out of 100? I don't mess with the unnatural stuff myself but I can only imagine how hard it is to find a dowel of cooked wood that weighs what you're asking for.
It's not daunting to do the build. It's daunting to find the piece of wood you want for your build.
Any competent builder could add weigh to the shaft build in a position that it would not effect the playability characteristics of a cooked piece of maple if you're trying to keep the total weight of the cue at specific weight.
Get a rare earth magnet and run it along the joint end of your shafts you have now. You may be surprised. If brass/tungsten or another non-magnetic metal was used it may not show up anyway.
The whole idea of cooking the wood is essentially for something that produces a lower deflection (less weight at the business end). You're combating that with your natural weight request of 4oz.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Because finding a dowel of the correct weight is like finding hen's teeth or a needle in a haystack. Unless a maker has one hell of a stock of blanks, it's likely they won't have anything heavy enough. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about this.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that most small to midsize makers don't have hundreds of shaft blanks lying around at any point. That's very expensive inventory to keep around, and with kielwood it's less important to keep stock curing/aging etc. It's basically ready from the moment they order it. It's possible but not likely. Your best bet would be to find a supplier willing to weight blanks with the promise of you paying extra for the extra work of weighing a hundred blanks to find one that fits your needs. Purchase it then send it to a trusted cue maker.

This isn't rocket science. It's probably not worth the effort for a cuemaker to buy hundreds of blanks just to make you a special shaft. I understand it's frustrating but it's reality. I'd guess most cuemakers would love to make a customer happy by giving them exactly what they wanted, but again, needle in a haystack. It's not that they won't, it's that it's highly unlikely they will find a blank to match your specs.

I honestly think your best bet is to do the footwork and try to purchase a blank from a supplier if they are even willing to do the legwork of weighing blanks. Unfortunately, it's a tough ask that you are asking. At least if you had a blank in hand the cuemaker has the special material to work with, without spending $5-10K searching through the haystack.

It’s not hard to understand……..what is hard to understand is why it’s taken so long to corroborate what JoeyInCali posted.

How many cue makers have read my post? Joey nailed it last week. I also acknowledged that finding a 11 oz shaft
must be really hard, if that’s the reason why you don’t see 4 oz KW shafts but Joey did an excellent job of explaining it
and I thanked him. My follow up posts have focused on what Joey identified long before anyone else chimed in with their
two cents. If JoeyInCali ever comes across a heavy dowl, I’d trust him to build the shaft because he knows what he’s
talking about & didn’t hesitate to join in the fracas. As acknowledged, I can live with a KW 3.8 oz. shaft but nothing lighter.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Torrified/roasted/baked/cooked maple wood is put through this process to squeeze the moisture from it and collapse the interior cells so moisture has a much harder time getting back into or out of the wood. When you remove the weight from wood this way it is naturally going to make it lighter in weight.
When I get natural maple shaft dowels in for processing the very first thing I do is weigh them. Anything over 10oz is generally going to end up at 3.7 to 3.9 and I have what I would consider a little taller taper than most. Flat faced joint, no inserts. Care to guess how many 10oz or heavier dowels come out of 100? I don't mess with the unnatural stuff myself but I can only imagine how hard it is to find a dowel of cooked wood that weighs what you're asking for.
It's not daunting to do the build. It's daunting to find the piece of wood you want for your build.
Any competent builder could add weigh to the shaft build in a position that it would not effect the playability characteristics of a cooked piece of maple if you're trying to keep the total weight of the cue at specific weight.
Get a rare earth magnet and run it along the joint end of your shafts you have now. You may be surprised. If brass/tungsten or another non-magnetic metal was used it may not show up anyway.
The whole idea of cooking the wood is essentially for something that produces a lower deflection (less weight at the business end). You're combating that with your natural weight request of 4oz.

Thanks for taking the time to post your explanation. I do appreciate having your opinion that parallels what Joey posted.

 

[boogieman]

It’s not hard to understand……..what is hard to understand is why it’s taken so long to corroborate what JoeyInCali posted.

How many cue makers have read my post?

Probably not many... if I were to guess maybe 1-2 dozen tops? Surely you've seen or head about cuemaker's back logs. It's not like they are jumping for the chance to jump through hoops to make a special shaft for someone, when they most likely already have 20 shafts sold and waiting to be constructed.

Joey nailed it last week. I also acknowledged that finding a 11 oz shaft
must be really hard, if that’s the reason why you don’t see 4 oz KW shafts but Joey did an excellent job of explaining it
and I thanked him. My follow up posts have focused on what Joey identified long before anyone else chimed in with their
two cents. If JoeyInCali ever comes across a heavy dowl, I’d trust him to build the shaft because he knows what he’s
talking about & didn’t hesitate to join in the fracas. As acknowledged, I can live with a KW 3.8 oz. shaft but nothing lighter.

That's fine. I offered you a solution of doing the leg work (over the phone) yourself. This is if you want this to happen sometime in the next decade. Thinking that a cuemaker will magically appear, read a niche post on a niche forum and suddenly say "oh yeah, I have an 11 oz blank I've been holding onto for just such an occasion" is ludicrous. Sure it could happen, but it's wishful thinking at best.

If you want it to happen, make it easy for the cuemaker and do the hard part of locating the needle in the haystack so they have something to build your shaft with. If not... just wait on it but you may be waiting for a loooooong time.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Probably not many... if I were to guess maybe 1-2 dozen tops? Surely you've seen or head about cuemaker's back logs. It's not like they are jumping for the chance to jump through hoops to make a special shaft for someone, when they most likely already have 20 shafts sold and waiting to be constructed.


That's fine. I offered you a solution of doing the leg work (over the phone) yourself. This is if you want this to happen sometime in the next decade. Thinking that a cuemaker will magically appear, read a niche post on a niche forum and suddenly say "oh yeah, I have an 11 oz blank I've been holding onto for just such an occasion" is ludicrous. Sure it could happen, but it's wishful thinking at best.

If you want it to happen, make it easy for the cuemaker and do the hard part of locating the needle in the haystack so they have something to build your shaft with. If not... just wait on it but you may be waiting for a loooooong time.

I was naive to think that a cue maker can contact their source for shaft wood and ask them. Suppliers must organize their inventory distinguishing the length and weight of the shaft dowels. They aren’t going to just toss them in a barrel and randomly pull a shaft to use. So I was presuming a cue maker could inquire but apparently making a couple of KW
shafts isn’t worth the time and effort of trying to find a heavier than normal dowel. That’s easy to understand. The mission has to be cost justifiable and two shafts are not worth the hassle. It makes sense. I have no gripes with that after I learned it’s easy to build the shaft if and when you have atypical wood dowel that’s unusually heavier.

Thanks for all the helpful input that explains the whys and how come. I have some Az respondents on ignore so I have no idea what they posted but it doesn’t really matter. Their opinions are skewed, worthless and mostly vindictively intended.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Wild Bill…….I spoke with Jeff and he is such a gracious person to talk with about cues and especially, KW shafts which he has tremendous expertise. If a 4 oz. 29” KW shaft could ever be built, it seems like Jeff is the guy who could build it.

However, as he explained, it is more of the exception rather than the norm. He is currently making several 3/8x11 KW shafts for a trade show. He will weigh them & if any weigh 3.8 ozs., he’ll let me know and put my name on the heaviest shaft he makes. 3.7 & 3.8 oz. shafts are not exceptional or rare but KW shafts weighing 4.0 ozs. really are. If I ordered a 30” shaft or increased the shaft size, my shaft would weigh more but I don’t want a shaft longer than 29.5” which is the length shaft Cory made. I’ll wait to see what happens with the KW shafts Jeff is making. He was such a pleasant, accommodating person to chat with and he understood the nuances of the shaft and butt weights. Thanks Wild Bill. Calling Jeff was a great suggestion.

 

[Bavafongoul]

So since my last post I’ve communicated with six cue makers and distributors of Kielwood cue shafts.
Still looking for someone to build two big pin, flat faced Kielwood shafts, 12.75mm & min. wt. 3.8 ozs.

One source checked their inventory they described as approx 4 ozs. but couldn’t find any heavier than
3.5 ozs. I’ve already got a shaft weighing that much so IMO it shouldn’t be this difficult but apparently is.

All the shafts Jeff Prather made turned out lighter than 3.8 nut as he said, next time it could turn out differently
but he needs a heavier piece of wood which he doesn’t presently have and couldn’t predict if or when either.

This has become more bewildering than than it’s been frustrating, Until I figure this out, I might as just carry
a 2x4 case since Cory Barnhart only makes radial pin shafts and my Scruggs cue is my only radial pin cue.

 

[aphelps1]

So since my last post I’ve communicated with six cue makers and distributors of Kielwood cue shafts.
Still looking for someone to build two big pin, flat faced Kielwood shafts, 12.75mm & min. wt. 3.8 ozs.

One source checked their inventory they described as approx 4 ozs. but couldn’t find any heavier than
3.5 ozs. I’ve already got a shaft weighing that much so IMO it shouldn’t be this difficult but apparently is.

All the shafts Jeff Prather made turned out lighter than 3.8 nut as he said, next time it could turn out differently
but he needs a heavier piece of wood which he doesn’t presently have and couldn’t predict if or when either.

This has become more bewildering than than it’s been frustrating, Until I figure this out, I might as just carry
a 2x4 case since Cory Barnhart only makes radial pin shafts and my Scruggs cue is my only radial pin cue.

PM me.

 

[muskyed]

Personally, from my way of thinking I would want the normal Kielwood shaft with a little weight added at the joint area to get to your 4 oz, or there abouts, as opposed to trying to find a naturally heavy Kielwood shaft in the 4 oz range. The reason I think this is, it seems with a naturally heavy Kielwood shaft, you would be sacrificing some of the benefits that a standard Kielwood shaft offers and that is it's lightness in the front end. By finding a 4 oz natural shaft like you want, aren't you just ending up with basically the same playing characteristics as a standard wood shaft?
By adding weight to a standard weight Kielwood shaft, you still then would have the same playing characteristics that everyone wants, but in a weight you desire. It's a simple matter to add weight to the joint area that any shaft maker can do.

 

[Bavafongoul]

The way I see it, you can taper the shaft to increase in diameter (thickness) sooner in the bottom 50% of the shaft
that would add weight faster. I know the front end mass needs to be lighter in a KW shaft but merely retaining the collar
diameter of the shaft for 3 1/2” - 4” before tapering would contribute weight. It should not be that difficult, especially
if the shaft is built 1/2” longer. If I could get Cory to build two roasted maple shafts and ship them untapped, I’d arrange
for the shafts to become 3/8x10 and 3/8x11 threads. He builds a nice KW shaft and wonder why this seems so hard?

 

[JoeyInCali]

The way I see it, you can taper the shaft to increase in diameter (thickness) sooner in the bottom 50% of the shaft
that would add weight faster. I know the front end mass needs to be lighter in a KW shaft but merely retaining the collar
diameter of the shaft for 3 1/2” - 4” before tapering would contribute weight. It should not be that difficult, especially
if the shaft is built 1/2” longer. If I could get Cory to build two roasted maple shafts and ship them untapped, I’d arrange
for the shafts to become 3/8x10 and 3/8x11 threads. He builds a nice KW shaft and wonder why this seems so hard?

That won't add much weight and it'll look funny.