Secrets!

Dave's EXCELLENT 5 CD collection of shots and explanations contains many "SECRETS" but he missed the boat by calling them "GEMS" instead. :grin:
Joey,

I don't think Tom and I got this wrong at all. :p

The VEPS "gems" really aren't "secrets," because they are fully described and demonstrated on VEPS, and much of the "information" was already readily available on my website (and in numerous books, articles, and videos).

Regardless of the name, the gems in VEPS truly are "gems" that all good players should know and have in their toolbox.

BTW, the complete list of all of the "gems" can be found here:

Catch you later,
Dave

PS: Thank you for using "EXCELLENT" in your post to describe VEPS. And thanks also for a great thread. :clapping:
 
Joey,

I don't think Tom and I got this wrong at all. :p

The VEPS "gems" really aren't "secrets," because they are fully described and demonstrated on VEPS, and much of the "information" was already readily available on my website (and in numerous books, articles, and videos).

Regardless of the name, the gems in VEPS truly are "gems" that all good players should know and have in their toolbox.

BTW, the complete list of all of the "gems" can be found here:

Catch you later,
Dave

PS: Thank you for using "EXCELLENT" in your post to describe VEPS. And thanks also for a great thread. :clapping:

If information is kept from people, as in this particular case of, you have to purchase the VEPS (Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots) in order to see these shots, they qualify as a SECRET for those who do not have the funds or the wherewithal to obtain them; as they are being kept from those who cannot afford to purchase them (at least in JoeyA's book).
 
If information is kept from people, as in this particular case of, you have to purchase the VEPS (Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots) in order to see these shots, they qualify as a SECRET for those who do not have the funds or the wherewithal to obtain them; as they are being kept from those who cannot afford to purchase them (at least in JoeyA's book).
Maybe Dr Dave would like to donate some copies for the good of mankind.
 
If information is kept from people, as in this particular case of, you have to purchase the VEPS (Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots) in order to see these shots, they qualify as a SECRET for those who do not have the funds or the wherewithal to obtain them; as they are being kept from those who cannot afford to purchase them (at least in JoeyA's book).
This kind of nonsense reminds me why I had you on ignore.

Bye again.

pj
chgo
 
I 'FEEL' that making this bank is a combination of the spin 'redirecting'
the object ball and transferring a small bit of englsh.The 'redirecting'
allows you to hit the ball 'thicker'..which gives you more object ball
speed.

I'm with Hu on these shots...you can use a lot of stuff BEFORE you
understand it.
..in my prime I hit this shot as good as anybody..on a 9 ft pool table
or a 10 ft snooker table.

but I have sympathy for PJ's point of view also....
..the man who can DO it and EXPLAIN it will rule the pool world.
BUT..if you wait till you can explain it, it may take a long time

For me , making this shot is 5 times harder with a Predator shaft. With a McDermott or something that has flex, I aim at half a ball with max left spin. I can't get the cueball to hit the lower side rail with the Predator , which tells me I am coming in with a slight squirt or whatever you want to call it when I do make it. I love to see peoples faces, who don't know the shot, when you hit this perfect on them.
 
Since the Predator was mentioned in a prior post I will share a secret for those of you that decide to make the switch to LD shafts...

If you have a shot you are used to using squirt on to assist you in making it... You either have to learn to aim differently or you can simply do what you have always done and catch the cueball with a little bit of an upstroke...

The upstroke will get the cueball off of the cloth surface and it will squirt out further than usual before the swerve takes effect and brings it back........
 
Since the Predator was mentioned in a prior post I will share a secret for those of you that decide to make the switch to LD shafts...

If you have a shot you are used to using squirt on to assist you in making it... You either have to learn to aim differently or you can simply do what you have always done and catch the cueball with a little bit of an upstroke...

The upstroke will get the cueball off of the cloth surface and it will squirt out further than usual before the swerve takes effect and brings it back........
There are three things wrong with this idea:

1. I think it's impossible to hit upward on the cue ball.

2. If you could hit upward on the cue ball, then swerve would be in the same direction as squirt, increasing the squirt error, not "bringing it back".

3. There are no shots for which squirt is needed or even that are easier with squirt.

pj
chgo
 
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There are three things wrong with this idea:

1. I think it's impossible to hit upward on the cue ball.

2. If you could hit upward on the cue ball, then swerve would be in the same direction as squirt, increasing the squirt error, not "bringing it back".

3. There are no shots for which squirt is needed or even that are easier with squirt.

pj
chgo

1.It's possible as long as your contact point is below center....

2.That would only be true if you were coming straight up into the ball... Matter of fact there is a trick shot out in the public domain where you use the shaft of your cue and hit up thru the pocket webbing into a cueball hanging over the edge.. I am sure some people are familiar with it...

3.There are lots of shots where squirt is used to advantage... The best examples I can give you are the scotch shot where the object ball is frozen to the end rail or a masse used to go around an impeding ball....

So far I have seen nothing of value from you in this post PJ... In the past I have read several threads where you were spot on with your comments but in this one you seem content to troll.... It makes me wonder if you are more of a parrot than an instructor... Only repeating what you have been told and having no understanding, ability to understand, or desire to understand..... I do not think that is true I think you yourself spotted the issue and indeed are trying to take out your frustrations from the last ban......
 
Me:
There are three things wrong with this idea:

1. I think it's impossible to hit upward on the cue ball.
Renfro:
1.It's possible as long as your contact point is below center...
How do you get your butt below your contact point (in order to hit upward)? Or are you saying you swoop your butt downward during the stroke?

Me:
2. If you could hit upward on the cue ball, then swerve would be in the same direction as squirt, increasing the squirt error, not "bringing it back".
Renfro:
2.That would only be true if you were coming straight up into the ball...
It's true with any amount of upwardness.

Me:
3. There are no shots for which squirt is needed or even that are easier with squirt.
Renfro:
3.There are lots of shots where squirt is used to advantage... The best examples I can give you are the scotch shot where the object ball is frozen to the end rail
I don't know which shot you're talking about here.

...or a masse used to go around an impeding ball....
This is the usual idea and, as usual, it's mistaken. All you have to do to go around an impeding ball is to aim around it. Squirt isn't necessary to do that for you.

[snip Renfro's complaint about being corrected]

Yeah, I know you don't like being corrected, but lots of people read here and they deserve to know when they're getting mistaken info.

pj
chgo
 
Joey,

I don't think Tom and I got this wrong at all. :p

The VEPS "gems" really aren't "secrets," because they are fully described and demonstrated on VEPS, and much of the "information" was already readily available on my website (and in numerous books, articles, and videos).

Regardless of the name, the gems in VEPS truly are "gems" that all good players should know and have in their toolbox.

BTW, the complete list of all of the "gems" can be found here:

Catch you later,
Dave

PS: Thank you for using "EXCELLENT" in your post to describe VEPS. And thanks also for a great thread. :clapping:
If information is kept from people, as in this particular case of, you have to purchase the VEPS (Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots) in order to see these shots, they qualify as a SECRET for those who do not have the funds or the wherewithal to obtain them; as they are being kept from those who cannot afford to purchase them (at least in JoeyA's book).
Good point. For people who don't want or have the information, it is "secret."

However, if people truly can't afford the VEPS DVDs, with patience and perseverance they can find practically all of the VEPS "secrets" in my website FAQ pages, in the demo clips posted online (available by clicking on each of the Disc links here), and in the series of articles I wrote for Billiards Digest about VEPS (see the January '10 through May '11 articles here). The DVDs present and demonstrate the "information" in an organized and efficient way, but the information is readily available elsewhere if you want to spend time instead of money to look for it.

Regards,
Dave
 
I had a conversation with someone recently who mentioned that the professional pool players will tell you many things that will help your game but that there are some "secrets" that you will never pry from their minds.

This is obviously true and it has been my personal experience as well. I once asked Ralf Souquet what his technique was for maintaining composure and he said he would only reveal that only after his days of competition are over. I can understand that and I'm sure many of you can as well.

There are other things (secrets) that top players know that some of us don't know but I suspect that some secrets are idiosyncratic and may not be as valuable to others as they are for the person who thinks it is "the secret" to their success.

I think we all learn particular things which help our game but that they are relative to us as individuals. Sure, those unique things that we do to help us pocket balls might help others but not always. I haven't tested my theory out on any of the professional players but I would almost bet that they do unusual things to help them pocket balls but may be too embarassed to tell others how they perceive or execute the shots because it isn't in the books. ;) We all know that if it isn't in the books, then it can't be right. :p



Ahh, you want secrets? Okay, i'll give you a dam secret! :thumbup:


Everyone is talking about how to do this, and how to hit that, squirt, center, left, deflection, blah blah blah blah blah! You all keep debating about that until your peas pop, i'll offer up exactly how to get them little "gems" you seek! I wont give you one, not even a half of one. I will tell you how you get them!

Maybe one young person here will put down the dam mouse, switch off the computer, and go do it, that person will be a real player, not some internet trained, mushroom.........after a few years of this.

18 yrs old, been playing from 14. town knows everything about you, even when you take a pee! Yuk! Unless you like all the attention! Then your a show off! So what too do? Small town, no one wants to play you anymore, too good. Pool sucks, people just wont fall for my pitch anymore, heartless they are! No heart, that's it. Or maybe, your still clueless? Maybe you know everything about running balls, but you have no clue about people!

Here it is, sounds simple, but how many young players do it? VERY VERY few!

Work a job in your home town, work nights, so you can practice 3 hours before work, in a quite room!

Only work Mon-Thursday.

On Thursday, come on too AZ and read about different parts of the country, the action, the pool halls, the people. Find the pools halls within 6 hours in all directions. Pick one to go play in all weekend. Go alone!
Get off your butt, and start the car and drive.

Maybe plan to play a tournament sat or Sun in that location.

Why would you do this?

Because, you already know that there is a old timer there, that knows the things you want to learn. So you go, sit with this guy, buy him a drink or coffee, maybe even food, and pick his brain like a shrink! Tell him you'll pay table time,go play ask questions! Hang there all weekend, listening to the old timer, as he sees you more, and if you don't act like a total spoiled punk jackass, he will offer you more and more. If he really has some gem's you just go back every weekend for a time and learn. It cost you gas, a cheap room, a entry into a tournament, and some food and table time.

You want gem's, and are younger, find old timers, act right, and learn what many, even very good players, never learn, because they cant shut up and listen when they are young! And don't know that the old timers will always hold those gem's!

You do this for 3 years, you have my word, you will learn allot more about pool then just mechanics! And that is were all the beauty hides, cant learn those gems until you put in the blood sweat and tears......And your lazy ass sure cant buy it, its not for sell, those gems are earned!

My first lesson ever, was aiming, cost me a hotdog and a beer.....he didnt ask for it i offered, after he ate that hotdog and drank the beer....then i said....Btw how the hell do you aim?
He is in the hall of fame.......Get it?

Question you ask:
What was it like playing pool in the 50-60-70s
What was the best trick you ever were shown to improve.........(what you want to learn)

My old fav'
i will Play you race to 11 for 50 after you improve my game a ball, and you just cant lose!

This is clever, beyond normal! and you'll never know why, unless you go and learn why.

When you do this, you learn the aiming secrets, you learn the banking gems, you learn table conditions, you learn how to deal with every pool jerk that ever held a cue, you learn how to make games, you learn to tell someones speed, you learn to hide your speed, its really unreal how much info you can learn from a old timer! If you just are passionate, genuine, and willing to shut up and listen, then go ask a question-shut mouth-listen-ask more questions........then more will be reveled! Once you get this, it wont matter how good your game is anymore, and you can just sit back with a big smile, and watch the masses miss the whole point of begin a true player.










Good luck!


If you never get ripe' you'll never fall off the tree!
 
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Maybe Dr Dave would like to donate some copies for the good of mankind.
Does that mean you are too cheap to purchase a set? :confused:

No discs for you! :p

The "gems" will remain "secrets" to all of the cheap and/or lazy people out there. :grin:

Regards,
Dave
 
Apparently Polly wants a cracker so here goes......

The upstroke could indeed be referred to as a swoop...

The cue is a wonderful thing... Not only can it be to stroked parallel using a pendulum but it can also be used like it's ancestor the lever.... The lever acts by using a fulcrum to create leverage. We can use the bridge as a fulcrum and the cue as a lever to create a force vector in the vertical plane during the stroke ....

While this is definitely not on the best practices list it is under what I consider the topic of advanced/specialty strokes....

It was used commonly on the old napped cloth to try to eliminate table bed drag on long draw shots. It is also an effective aid in drawing the over sized cueball on bar tables.....

Dr Dave shoots this shot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0uReP3Id20

With a non-low deflection shaft you can actually aim directly at the object ball with extreme left english and the squirt and swerve caused by the shaft will squirt the cueball out to the right and then straighten it up to make the shot as demonstrated...

If you attempt to do the same thing with a LD shaft you will hit the object ball pretty full... By using the upstroke you can alter the initial bed drag, altering the amount of squirt before the swerve takes effect and straightens the cueball path out.....This is one example of a shot where squirt is required.....

I was taught as a youth that if I wanted to cinch a cut shot I was to aim it into the thick side of the pocket and use a touch of inside english. The supposition was that most cuts that were missed were missed by being under cut which is a sell out usually. BY using inside the squirt would cause the cueball to help cut the object ball into the heart of the pocket... If you end up missing you end up over cutting the object ball and that is usually referred to missing it on the pro side.... This tip was from the Eddie Taylor camp of players here in Knoxville.....

In practical application squirt can be a tool to assist certain shots........ The old timers didn't call it squirt around this area... They called it topple and they knew when to use it vs when to fight it.....

Ignorance of information does not mean the information is mistaken... It's pretty simple for anyone to test and try out... Take your LD shaft and aim a cut thick with a touch of inside... If you stroke level you will likely still cut the object ball thick... With a touch of upstroke you cut it into the pocket aiming at the exact same spot.....
 
Since the Predator was mentioned in a prior post I will share a secret for those of you that decide to make the switch to LD shafts...

If you have a shot you are used to using squirt on to assist you in making it... You either have to learn to aim differently or you can simply do what you have always done and catch the cueball with a little bit of an upstroke...

The upstroke will get the cueball off of the cloth surface and it will squirt out further than usual before the swerve takes effect and brings it back........

Thanks I will try that, it's nice to have the low deflection but I lost several nice little shots , maybe I can have the best of both worlds !!!
 
There are three things wrong with this idea:

1. I think it's impossible to hit upward on the cue ball.

2. If you could hit upward on the cue ball, then swerve would be in the same direction as squirt, increasing the squirt error, not "bringing it back".

3. There are no shots for which squirt is needed or even that are easier with squirt.

pj
chgo

This is true , unless you are trying to put the cueball in a certain place. I could do the same thing and send the cueball 6 rails and get there but I like the other way better.
 
Good Secret....................

Ahh, you want secrets? Okay, i'll give you a dam secret! :thumbup:


Everyone is talking about how to do this, and how to hit that, squirt, center, left, deflection, blah blah blah blah blah! You all keep debating about that until your peas pop, i'll offer up exactly how to get them little "gems" you seek! I wont give you one, not even a half of one. I will tell you how you get them!

Maybe one young person here will put down the dam mouse, switch off the computer, and go do it, that person will be a real player, not some internet trained, mushroom.........after a few years of this.

18 yrs old, been playing from 14. town knows everything about you, even when you take a pee! Yuk! Unless you like all the attention! Then your a show off! So what too do? Small town, no one wants to play you anymore, too good. Pool sucks, people just wont fall for my pitch anymore, heartless they are! No heart, that's it. Or maybe, your still clueless? Maybe you know everything about running balls, but you have no clue about people!

Here it is, sounds simple, but how many young players do it? VERY VERY few!

Work a job in your home town, work nights, so you can practice 3 hours before work, in a quite room!

Only work Mon-Thursday.

On Thursday, come on too AZ and read about different parts of the country, the action, the pool halls, the people. Find the pools halls within 6 hours in all directions. Pick one to go play in all weekend. Go alone!
Get off your butt, and start the car and drive.

Maybe plan to play a tournament sat or Sun in that location.

Why would you do this?

Because, you already know that there is a old timer there, that knows the things you want to learn. So you go, sit with this guy, buy him a drink or coffee, maybe even food, and pick his brain like a shrink! Tell him you'll pay table time,go play ask questions! Hang there all weekend, listening to the old timer, as he sees you more, and if you don't act like a total spoiled punk jackass, he will offer you more and more. If he really has some gem's you just go back every weekend for a time and learn. It cost you gas, a cheap room, a entry into a tournament, and some food and table time.

You want gem's, and are younger, find old timers, act right, and learn what many, even very good players, never learn, because they cant shut up and listen when they are young! And don't know that the old timers will always hold those gem's!

You do this for 3 years, you have my word, you will learn allot more about pool then just mechanics! And that is were all the beauty hides, cant learn those gems until you put in the blood sweat and tears......And your lazy ass sure cant buy it, its not for sell, those gems are earned!

My first lesson ever, was aiming, cost me a hotdog and a beer.....he didnt ask for it i offered, after he ate that hotdog and drank the beer....then i said....Btw how the hell do you aim?
He is in the hall of fame.......Get it?

Question you ask:
What was it like playing pool in the 50-60-70s
What was the best trick you ever were shown to improve.........(what you want to learn)

My old fav'
i will Play you race to 11 for 50 after you improve my game a ball, and you just cant lose!

This is clever, beyond normal! and you'll never know why, unless you go and learn why.

When you do this, you learn the aiming secrets, you learn the banking gems, you learn table conditions, you learn how to deal with every pool jerk that ever held a cue, you learn how to make games, you learn to tell someones speed, you learn to hide your speed, its really unreal how much info you can learn from a old timer! If you just are passionate, genuine, and willing to shut up and listen, then go ask a question-shut mouth-listen-ask more questions........then more will be reveled! Once you get this, it wont matter how good your game is anymore, and you can just sit back with a big smile, and watch the masses miss the whole point of begin a true player.










Good luck!


If you never get ripe' you'll never fall off the tree!

Swami,
You get FIRST PLACE for the most unique and practical SECRET of pool. This SECRET is known by a few, mature, young people and they are getting better by the day.
 
Joey,

Your thread inspired me to create a webpage for the Top 100 Pool "Secrets" and "Gems". It is located here:

The subtitle for the page is:
"The things all great players know and wish they had known when they were younger."
Check it out.

The site could have many more categories and hundreds of additional topics, but I limited the list to what I thought were the top 100 topics in 15 categories.

I've also provided links for most of the topics, providing additional resources (e.g., video demonstrations) and more information (e.g., illustrated instructional articles) for each.

Thanks for the inspiration and the thread! :thumbup:

Regards,
Dave
 
Joey,

Your thread inspired me to create a webpage for the Top 100 Pool "Secrets" and "Gems". It is located here:

The subtitle for the page is:
"The things all great players know and wish they had known when they were younger."
Check it out.

The site could have many more categories and hundreds of additional topics, but I limited the list to what I thought were the top 100 topics in 15 categories.

I've also provided links for most of the topics, providing additional resources (e.g., video demonstrations) and more information (e.g., illustrated instructional articles) for each.

Thanks for the inspiration and the thread! :thumbup:

Regards,
Dave

Dave that was a great gesture on your part to the entire pool community... I may have to stop by the VEPS booth at the open and spend some coin......

Thanks from all of us :thumbup:
 
Patrick, good to see you back again. Two points of contention:

From post 326:

1. With such a thin collision there's very little friction between the balls to begin with, so throw is negligible no matter what you do to the CB.
As a practical matter, I think you're more right than wrong about this, but it is possible to get large amounts of throw, even on very thin cuts, with the right amount of outside english. The problem with this is that the difference in spin that produces maximum throw in one direction along the tangent line, compared to the opposite direction along the tangent line, gets smaller and smaller as you approach 90 degrees of cut angle (ultimately zero at 90 degrees). Unless you're very precise with the applied english, on a thin cut you may set up for, say, approximately 4 degrees of throw opposite the direction of the cueball along the tangent line, and end up with 5 degrees in the direction of the cueball! Nevertheless, I do take issue with the "no matter what you do to the CB" part of the statement.

From post 349:

1. I think it's impossible to hit upward on the cue ball.
In effect, I believe you can do this in some cases, e.g., when the butt of the cue is well clear of the rail. In such a situation, you can set up for centerball with the cue level, or very nearly so. If you then drop the tip down, say, 1/2" from center, the cue will be inclined about 1/2 degree. (Perhaps 3/4 to 1 degree is more realistic to allow the knuckles of your grip hand more space above the cloth.) With a typical cue, you should expect something like 2 degrees of squirt (very roughly and we're talking vertical squirt here) at this offset. Therefore, the force on the cueball will be acting with a net upward inclination of a degree or so. Looking at it another way, you get this effect whenever the cue's pivot point is below the horizontal center-axis of the CB. Of course, I'm taking liberties with the meaning of your "hit upward."

Jim
 
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