Self Rack Rules

[Shuddy]

Quick question:

I play in Korea, and a lot of the tournaments are rack your own. However, if you do rack your own, there are a couple of conditions. The first is that a 9 ball or 10 ball on the break is re-spotted. No issues with that one. The second is that if, after the break, the 9 ball ends up near either of the two corner pockets near the rack, it gets spotted on the head spot. The term 'near' is defined by the square created by the two first diamonds on either side of the corner pockets.

Is this rule played anywhere else in the world? And, if so, how is the one diamond square defined?

To be more specific, in snooker and English billiards a ball is only considered to be behind the line if the actual contact point of the ball on the table is on the line, or behind the line. So, if the edge of a ball is hanging over the line, but the contact point with the table is not touching the line, the ball is deemed as not being in the defined area, or behind the line.

If anyone has played with this self-rack rule regarding the 9 ball stopping within one diamond of the two corner pockets near the rack, how would you define this area in American pool?

To give some more context to the question, I was recently playing in the final of a tournament, self-rack. I broke and scratched. The one ball got bumped back near the head spot. The 9 ball ended up near the first diamond by one of the bottom corner pockets. The most horizontal edge of the 9 ball was hanging over the first diamond, but the actual contact point of the ball with the table was clearly outside the first diamond. A discussion ensued, and apparently in Korea the contact point with the table doesn't matter, the floating edge of the ball touch the first diamond is close enough. The 9 ball was re-spotted, leaving a dead straight 1-9 combination for my opponent.

Thoughts? Aware?

 

[hang-the-9]

I have never seen the ball moved if it was not made like that.

Usually the game winner is spotted up if made on the break, or at least in the lower 2 pockets, in rack your own rules. But I never heard of anyone moving the 9 if it was close to the pocket. In theory, it's the same thing, you can leave a gap in the rack to send the 9 towards the corner and then shoot an easy combo if you pocket a ball on the break. So there is some merit to moving it, but I've never seen any tournament do that.
The other rule about the edge of the ball counting where the ball location is, is silly and the only time I have seen that rule is in bars and among players who don't really know the rules but play by word of mouth rules like "my cousin played pool 5 times already and he heard from a one armed old guy that's the rule".

The response to this rule should be " if the ball is hanging over the pocket, the edge is IN, so the ball, by your rules, is IN. Next time I hang up a ball like that it will count as made correct?"

 

[fathomblue]

I have never seen the ball moved if it was not made like that.

Usually the game winner is spotted up if made on the break, or at least in the lower 2 pockets, in rack your own rules. But I never heard of anyone moving the 9 if it was close to the pocket. In theory, it's the same thing, you can leave a gap in the rack to send the 9 towards the corner and then shoot an easy combo if you pocket a ball on the break. So there is some merit to moving it, but I've never seen any tournament do that.
The other rule about the edge of the ball counting where the ball location is, is silly and the only time I have seen that rule is in bars and among players who don't really know the rules but play by word of mouth rules like "my cousin played pool 5 times already and he heard from a one armed old guy that's the rule".

The response to this rule should be " if the ball is hanging over the pocket, the edge is IN, so the ball, by your rules, is IN. Next time I hang up a ball like that it will count as made correct?"

I've never seen a rule like this about the "near the pocket within a diamond" thing.

However, in Tunica (for sure, since I've played there) and probably the DCC (because I haven't, but I'm gonna ASSuME).......when you break, every bit of the CB has to be behind the head string. Not just the base of the ball that's touching the cloth. The ENTIRE ball.

I believe the same goes for shooting balls after gaining BIH in Bank Pool. I think the entire OB has to be outside the kitchen to be a viable shot option.

Again, the whole "near the pocket" thing is new to me, and in a perfect world would be nice, but it would probably just cause more problems.

***If anything, I wouldn't mind seeing a rule where the money ball is spotted after the break, no matter what happens. If it goes in on the snap. If it rolls 2 inches away. If it rolls up table. If it doesn't move. Just spot it.

That could lead to some interesting frozen ball clusters/problem-solving issues to start off a rack.***

 

[hang-the-9]

I've never seen a rule like this about the "near the pocket within a diamond" thing.

However, in Tunica (for sure, since I've played there) and probably the DCC (because I haven't, but I'm gonna ASSuME).......when you break, every bit of the CB has to be behind the head string. Not just the base of the ball that's touching the cloth. The ENTIRE ball.

I believe the same goes for shooting balls after gaining BIH in Bank Pool. I think the entire OB has to be outside the kitchen to be a viable shot option.

Again, the whole "near the pocket" thing is new to me, and in a perfect world would be nice, but it would probably just cause more problems.

***If anything, I wouldn't mind seeing a rule where the money ball is spotted after the break, no matter what happens. If it goes in on the snap. If it rolls 2 inches away. If it rolls up table. If it doesn't move. Just spot it.

That could lead to some interesting frozen ball clusters/problem-solving issues to start off a rack.***

How do they measure where the edge of the ball is if they use that? Do they drop a plumb line down the edge of it and see where it hits the cloth? Using the base of the ball is easy, you can see exactly where it's at on the table. It's in the official rules in several governing bodies of pool. And as I said, if the edge of the ball is where it's at, then a ball hanging over the edge of the pocket is in.

Spotting the game ball on the break would lead to several new issues. Let's say there is a dead combo there all of a sudden, then what? Or it the ball now blocks another shot. That's actually one of the things that I don't like about spotting up a game ball on the break, there should be a rule that you can chose if you want to spot it then or after the first shot.

I'd rather see the game ball has to go in last, so you make a combo on the 9, it spots up then and you keep shooting.

 

[Shuddy]

I have never seen the ball moved if it was not made like that.

Usually the game winner is spotted up if made on the break, or at least in the lower 2 pockets, in rack your own rules. But I never heard of anyone moving the 9 if it was close to the pocket. In theory, it's the same thing, you can leave a gap in the rack to send the 9 towards the corner and then shoot an easy combo if you pocket a ball on the break. So there is some merit to moving it, but I've never seen any tournament do that.
The other rule about the edge of the ball counting where the ball location is, is silly and the only time I have seen that rule is in bars and among players who don't really know the rules but play by word of mouth rules like "my cousin played pool 5 times already and he heard from a one armed old guy that's the rule".

The response to this rule should be " if the ball is hanging over the pocket, the edge is IN, so the ball, by your rules, is IN. Next time I hang up a ball like that it will count as made correct?"

Exactly, the idea behind the rule is to stop people fixing the rack, leaving a possible opening combination. Knowing this added insult to injury when the re-spot left my opponent a dead straight combination.

This self-rack rule is actually written up in the KAPA (Korean Amateur Pool Association) 9-ball rules.

However, in Tunica (for sure, since I've played there) and probably the DCC (because I haven't, but I'm gonna ASSuME).......when you break, every bit of the CB has to be behind the head string. Not just the base of the ball that's touching the cloth. The ENTIRE ball.

This comment actually highlights the contradiction in the rule (leaving Tunica out of it for a second). When placing the CB on the break, you can't put the cue ball so far forward that only the rear most edge is hanging over the break line, while at the same time, and in the same set of rules, they consider an edge sufficient when re-spotting the nine. That's example I should have used to point out the stupidity of the ruling. Damn it! Next time

 

[Shuddy]

How do they measure where the edge of the ball is if they use that? Do they drop a plumb line down the edge of it and see where it hits the cloth? Using the base of the ball is easy, you can see exactly where it's at on the table.

That's actually what I was trying to explain to them. For such an important ruling you're just kind of saying, "Yeahhhhhh, the ball is kind of near the diamond line, close enough, don't know exactly, but whatever, let's re-spot it and completely change the layout of the table."

 

[hang-the-9]

That's actually what I was trying to explain to them. For such an important ruling you're just kind of saying, "Yeahhhhhh, the ball is kind of near the diamond line, close enough, don't know exactly, but whatever, let's re-spot it and completely change the layout of the table."

I had a guy in a league once where the 9 had to be called, spot the 9 for me (I made the 9 while making another ball), but he was about 1 inch from the spot because if it was on the spot, it would line up for a combo LOL. I moved it to the right area and he started *****ing that I moved the ball.

 

[CreeDo]

The rule is uncommon, but actually makes some sense.
Leaving certain gaps can encourage the 9b to intentionally lay up (or go in) the corner pockets,
resulting in the possibility of many short racks with 1-9, 2-9, 3-9 combos etc.

Clearly they want you to play out the whole rack and invented this rule to force that.

It was your bad luck that enforcing the rule resulted in the exact thing they wanted to avoid,
a simple 1-9 combo to end the rack instantly. It's like 100-to-1 to have a spotted ball line up perfectly.
But if the rule weren't there then early 9's would happen much more often.

The whole base-of-the-ball vs. any-part-of-the-ball thing is a common cause for arguments.
I think most serious tournaments consider the base of the ball only, and the other version
of the rule (any part of the ball) is kind of a ghetto house rule.

But some players swear that's how it is, how it always was, and how it should be.
I'm sure he saw the potential 1-9 combo and that's the main reason he decided to argue about it.

 

[Johnnyt]

9 ball should be played that 9 on the beak in any pocket gets spotted, no combo's on the 9, 9 has to be made last. Johnnyt

 

[Black-Balled]

I've never seen a rule like this about the "near the pocket within a diamond" thing.*

That is coz a money ball ithin a foot of the pocket in Korea is like it hanging in the hole in America.

They play a lotta carom games there and it is't that funny, now that I had to explain it. :shrug:

 

[Johnnyt]

That is coz a money ball ithin a foot of the pocket in Korea is like it hanging in the hole in America.

They play a lotta carom games there and it is't that funny, now that I had to explain it. :shrug:

Good point and probably about right. Johnnyt

 

[Shuddy]

That is coz a money ball ithin a foot of the pocket in Korea is like it hanging in the hole in America.

They play a lotta carom games there and it is't that funny, now that I had to explain it. :shrug:

It's actually pretty ridiculous. They play a handicap system in all the clubs here, with the highest rating for an amateur being 9, while all pros are 10. And without discussion, it's understood when you play someone that you're playing for table hire, and that your handicap is the amount of games required to win the match.

So, I often play guys that have a handicap of 5 or 6 and I usually win 9-0/1/2, etc. But holy crap, even these guys play some insane outs when they are snookered. They all start off playing 4 ball (a Korean variation of carom), or carom itself. Carom gets a lot more publicity than any form of pocket ball. Had a guy play a 5 cushion out on me the other night, it was insane. If you saw that one shot, you'd think he was a serious player. But give him a half ball pot mid table and he's a 50% to make it.

 

[Black-Balled]

It's actually pretty ridiculous. They play a handicap system in all the clubs here, with the highest rating for an amateur being 9, while all pros are 10. And without discussion, it's understood when you play someone that you're playing for table hire, and that your handicap is the amount of games required to win the match.

So, I often play guys that have a handicap of 5 or 6 and I usually win 9-0/1/2, etc. But holy crap, even these guys play some insane outs when they are snookered. They all start off playing 4 ball (a Korean variation of carom), or carom itself. Carom gets a lot more publicity than any form of pocket ball. Had a guy play a 5 cushion out on me the other night, it was insane. If you saw that one shot, you'd think he was a serious player. But give him a half ball pot mid table and he's a 50% to make it.

They do love that 4ball game, don't they?! There are quite a few Korean places around me, with the 4ball tables and they are always packed.