Sensitivity of Power Draw Shots - Physics or Mechanics?

[irspow]

Interesting idea - sounds like it could make sense. If you actually visualize the twice-as-far "stop shot" ball while shooting the draw shot, it might also help control aim and stroke.

pj
chgo

The ‘system’ works for me. But it isn’t a twice the stop system. Rather it defines the stroke power for total diamond travel of cue ball.

Once you know for example the stroke needed to stop at say 8 diamonds. Any total combination of separation of balls and cue draw that adds up to 8 works.

1 diamond between CB and OB will draw the cue 7 diamonds
2 diamonds between CB and OB will draw the cue 6 diamonds
…
7 diamonds between CB and OB will draw the cue 1 diamond.

But to reiterate, the ‘stop shot’ that I am referring to is with .5R draw contact point. (Not the general slight below center for normal stop shots)

I shot so many like that in practice that I always use ‘max draw’ for stop shots using a much softer stroke than normal.

 

[irspow]

mark finklestein showed me that over 10 years ago as a way to do a controlled draw
imagine a stop shot however many diamonds you want to draw past the object ball
not as a power draw
when he showed it to me

Awesome! I kind of assumed that I wasn’t a pioneer here.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

mark finklestein showed me that over 10 years ago as a way to do a controlled draw
imagine a stop shot however many diamonds you want to draw past the object ball
not as a power draw
when he showed it to me

I'm surprised this is the first I've heard of it. Stop shots are easier than controlled draw (for me anyway), so a method like this could make a real difference - I'd expect it to be more well known.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Once you know for example the stroke needed to stop at say 8 diamonds. Any total combination of separation of balls and cue draw that adds up to 8 works.

Yes, it's even more versatile than I described. Thanks for clarifying, and for the tip.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...the ‘stop shot’ that I am referring to is with .5R draw contact point. (Not the general slight below center for normal stop shots)

I shot so many like that in practice that I always use ‘max draw’ for stop shots using a much softer stroke than normal.

You can either
- fix the tip height and vary the speed
- fix the speed and vary the tip height
- vary both.

I'm with you on fixing the tip height.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Once you know for example the stroke needed to stop at say 8 diamonds. Any total combination of separation of balls and cue draw that adds up to 8 works.

So you visualize the stop shot as far past the OB as the amount of draw you want - easy to remember and "see" at the table. I'm liking this.

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

So you visualize the stop shot as far past the OB as the amount of draw you want - easy to remember and "see" at the table. I'm liking this.

pj
chgo

It will be easy to test the idea in VP. Set up a long stop shot. With tracking on, move the object ball back towards the cue ball. The draw distance should equal the distance from the ball to its original position. Try it with two kinds of stop shot - max low and about half of that top offset.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

It will be easy to test the idea in VP. Set up a long stop shot. With tracking on, move the object ball back towards the cue ball. The draw distance should equal the distance from the ball to its original position. Try it with two kinds of stop shot - max low and about half of that top offset.

I tried it once (so far) with max low, OB 2 diamonds away and stop ball 1 diamond past that. With perfect stop shot speed I got less than 1 diamond of draw. I’m thinking I might do better next time with the tip a little higher.

pj
chgo

 

[Dan White]

Yes, Dave has (but I'm not sure where to find it) - it's because the draw slows the ball's forward speed down more than it slows the side spin, resulting in greater spin-to-speed ratio (and therefore greater spin effect).

It might also matter that, because using draw requires hitting more downward on the CB, swerve becomes more of a factor.

pj
chgo

Yes, that is what Oikawa said above. Thanks for the input.

 

[Dan White]

OK, thanks for the info. First, your bridge: Try to flatten your bridge hand as much as possible so that you're not shooting down more than necessary at the cb. Next, check the angle of your third finger in your bridge, and how the shaft of your cue sits on that third finger. Is your cue possibly floating along the downward/sideways angle of that third finger in your bridge as it moves through during your power stroke?

Tightening the loop isn't always the answer, particularly if it's rubbing too much against the shaft. But you can change the angle of that third finger by rolling your bridge hand a little away from you which flattens out that third finger -- leveling it off more -- where you're looking at more of the underside of that finger from your shooting stance. Your top loop will also lean more forward as you roll your hand slightly away from you.

Keep in mind that it will all depend on the anatomy of your hand. My suggestion may or may not work for you. Whatever adjustment you make, try to get the portion of that finger the cue rests on to be as level as possible.

Your grip sounds fine. Just check the position of your knuckles before and after to see if you did any twisting.

So I did a little more practice and even got the laser out to check on alignment. In rereading my initial comments I think I'm giving a misleading picture. The draw shots are not going haywire all over the place like I'm suggesting. Sometimes I hit 3 or 4 shots in a row without standing up. I just reset the cue ball with the cue tip and shoot again. I think some of the outliers are due to back fatigue, etc. The laser did confirm some alignment things and was helpful.

I think where I stand now is that the deviation for draw shots is usually within several ball widths while for follow it is within a half of a ball width or less. My initial question was whether draw was more difficult for actual physical reasons and the answer I got is "yes." I think, given that, my error during draw is not caused by any one flaw. I just need to practice it more and be more careful.

I'm trying to take your advice from awhile back and not demand perfection. I think if I can draw hard and be within a half ball width error then any shot during actual play will still be successful.

Thanks for the tips!

 

[Dan White]

It will be easy to test the idea in VP. Set up a long stop shot. With tracking on, move the object ball back towards the cue ball. The draw distance should equal the distance from the ball to its original position. Try it with two kinds of stop shot - max low and about half of that top offset.

Hey Bob I have a question about VP4. I think I asked PJ this long ago but I don't recall the answer. I have yet to pick up VP4. Is it possible to set up a particular shot and then shoot it over and over with say different spin or speed? Can you place balls precisely on diamond intersections, like in autoCAD you can snap a pointer to an intersection. I'm interested in setting up shots and comparing them to how they play on a real table but I didn't want to bother with VP if setting up repeatable shots was a hassle.

 

[DeadStick]

Hey Bob I have a question about VP4. I think I asked PJ this long ago but I don't recall the answer. I have yet to pick up VP4. Is it possible to set up a particular shot and then shoot it over and over with say different spin or speed? Can you place balls precisely on diamond intersections, like in autoCAD you can snap a pointer to an intersection. I'm interested in setting up shots and comparing them to how they play on a real table but I didn't want to bother with VP if setting up repeatable shots was a hassle.

Yes, you can set up a shot and play it over in different ways any number of times with the Undo feature.

You can also save any number of table layouts and load them on a later date.

When placing balls, there’s no “snap-to-grid” feature, but you can display the table grid and view the table from straight down so getting balls nearly exactly where you want them is easy.

It’s a powerful tool for learning ball physics and visualizing position play. My favorite thing to do is have the tracers on (which shows you the path and eventual stopping point for each ball) while making changes to aim, spin, and/or speed.

Here’s a short video I made for another thread recently that shows the changing path of the cueball on a high-inside follow shot with increasing amounts of speed:

 

[Bob Jewett]

And rather than replay a shot in VP, you can turn on "tracking" which shows for the spin and speed chosen where all the balls will go. Then maybe you gradually increase the speed and see how the shot changes.

 

[FranCrimi]

So I did a little more practice and even got the laser out to check on alignment. In rereading my initial comments I think I'm giving a misleading picture. The draw shots are not going haywire all over the place like I'm suggesting. Sometimes I hit 3 or 4 shots in a row without standing up. I just reset the cue ball with the cue tip and shoot again. I think some of the outliers are due to back fatigue, etc. The laser did confirm some alignment things and was helpful.

I think where I stand now is that the deviation for draw shots is usually within several ball widths while for follow it is within a half of a ball width or less. My initial question was whether draw was more difficult for actual physical reasons and the answer I got is "yes." I think, given that, my error during draw is not caused by any one flaw. I just need to practice it more and be more careful.

I'm trying to take your advice from awhile back and not demand perfection. I think if I can draw hard and be within a half ball width error then any shot during actual play will still be successful.

Thanks for the tips!

Thanks for the update. I'm sure you'll figure out the answer because you are being objective about yourself without condemning your errors. Self-condemnation is what keeps people from progressing. A player's attitude towards learning is 9/10ths of the battle. Great players became great because they saw obstacles as challenges to overcome rather than emotional failures.

That was a good observation you made about your tending to stay down for multiple shots, probably due to back fatigue. It's better to shoot less shots and get up after each shot and reset for the next shot. Remember, whatever you do in practice is training your subconscious mind. Keep training it to perform a proper pre shot routine.

...And like you said...it doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to work consistently without impeding you in any way.

 

[Dan White]

Thanks for the update. I'm sure you'll figure out the answer because you are being objective about yourself without condemning your errors. Self-condemnation is what keeps people from progressing. A player's attitude towards learning is 9/10ths of the battle. Great players became great because they saw obstacles as challenges to overcome rather than emotional failures.

That was a good observation you made about your tending to stay down for multiple shots, probably due to back fatigue.

I didn't mean I stayed down because my back was fatigued. I stayed down because it was easier to get to the next shot that way. By doing that for several shots my back would then start to fatigue and I'd start to lose form, if that makes sense.

It's better to shoot less shots and get up after each shot and reset for the next shot. Remember, whatever you do in practice is training your subconscious mind. Keep training it to perform a proper pre shot routine.

...And like you said...it doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to work consistently without impeding you in any way.

Thanks for the advice, Fran!

 

[Oikawa]

Yes, you can set up a shot and play it over in different ways any number of times with the Undo feature.

You can also save any number of table layouts and load them on a later date.

When placing balls, there’s no “snap-to-grid” feature, but you can display the table grid and view the table from straight down so getting balls nearly exactly where you want them is easy.

It’s a powerful tool for learning ball physics and visualizing position play. My favorite thing to do is have the tracers on (which shows you the path and eventual stopping point for each ball) while making changes to aim, spin, and/or speed.

Here’s a short video I made for another thread recently that shows the changing path of the cueball on a high-inside follow shot with increasing amounts of speed:

Great idea, will maybe buy it one day for this.

Curious to see how the curve would've continued past that power. Even at where it ended (pic above), you'd be looking at a pretty absurly powerful shot, that 99% of people wouldn't be able to pull off.

Can you adjust table slickness, cushion conditions etc. in there or are they always the same?

 

[DeadStick]

Great idea, will maybe buy it one day for this.

View attachment 737880

Curious to see how the curve would've continued past that power. Even at where it ended (pic above), you'd be looking at a pretty absurly powerful shot, that 99% of people wouldn't be able to pull off.

I believe that was max power, which is already inhumanly fast.

I just made a video of a 9-ball break at the same max power, with some aim and english changes prior to hitting at 35 sec to show the crazy tracking lines. I used my Break Speed app to measure this one at 53.6 mph (about 20 mph faster than Mike Dechaine's power break).

Unfortunately, VP4 doesn't show the actual power you're applying, either on a power meter or a number. You adjust power by holding down the f key (force) then moving the mouse forwards or backwards. All you know is when you've reached zero power or maximum. But at least now I know max force is around 54 mph lol.

 

[DeadStick]

Here's a 10-rails shot at max power in VP4. Setting this up, it was very hard to keep the CB on the table. To get the CB to go that last full length requires taking the power up from about 1/2 max to full max.

 

[DeadStick]

Back on subject for this thread. Here are two short videos showing the stop shot / draw shot ratio in VP4.

Table conditions: 9-ft table with "Tournament" conditions (I find this is pretty close to my 9 ft Centennial with Simonis 860)

Setup: CB is 3 diamonds from OB, adjust english and speed for a perfect stop shot, then move OB up to 2 diamonds away and repeat shot at the exact same english and speed.

Test 1: Max low draw (easy to adjust to this, since you can see when miscue happens and just go slightly higher)
Result: The stop shot from 3 diamonds hit exactly the same from 2 diamonds resulted in 2.2 diamonds of draw (expected 1)

Test 2: About half max low draw (have to eyeball it)
Result: The stop shot from 3 diamonds hit exactly the same from 2 diamonds resulted in 0.8 diamonds of draw (expected 1)

I also tested with the OB 7 diamonds away for the stop shot, then moved it 3 diamonds closer and hit the same shot. With max low, the CB drew back 6 diamonds (twice as far as expected, similar to shorter shot test above), and with about half max low, the CB drew back 4.5 diamonds (50% further than expected).

Summary: In VP4 at least, this system works only with around 2/3rd max low tip position from the shorter ranges. At long range, the draw distance was proportionately similar with max low but 50% greater with half-max low.

 

[irspow]

Back on subject for this thread. Here are two short videos showing the stop shot / draw shot ratio in VP4.

Table conditions: 9-ft table with "Tournament" conditions (I find this is pretty close to my 9 ft Centennial with Simonis 860)

Setup: CB is 3 diamonds from OB, adjust english and speed for a perfect stop shot, then move OB up to 2 diamonds away and repeat shot at the exact same english and speed.

Test 1: Max low draw (easy to adjust to this, since you can see when miscue happens and just go slightly higher)
Result: The stop shot from 3 diamonds hit exactly the same from 2 diamonds resulted in 2.2 diamonds of draw (expected 1)

Test 2: About half max low draw (have to eyeball it)
Result: The stop shot from 3 diamonds hit exactly the same from 2 diamonds resulted in 0.8 diamonds of draw (expected 1)

I also tested with the OB 7 diamonds away for the stop shot, then moved it 3 diamonds closer and hit the same shot. With max low, the CB drew back 6 diamonds (twice as far as expected, similar to shorter shot test above), and with about half max low, the CB drew back 4.5 diamonds (50% further than expected).

Summary: In VP4 at least, this system works only with around 2/3rd max low tip position from the shorter ranges. At long range, the draw distance was proportionately similar with max low but 50% greater with half-max low.

That’s pretty neat.

Were your stop shots made with max draw contact point on cueball? If you use the stroke speed needed with slight draw (conventional stop shot) that is too fast. A stop shot performed with max draw contact point will be slower than a typical stop shot. Maybe that is why you got more draw than expected. In other words, testing this diamond system requires max draw contact point on cueball for all stop and draw shots. Otherwise the speeds will be off. I am just curious because it works well for me.